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Hey everyone,

I had a chance to demo Malifaux at Adepticon and I want to get involved. The two starter sets that caught my eye so far are the Lucius and Pandora one. I like that they are both control-type of champions versus the melee or ranged attacker kind. It suits me I think.

However, since I have only the one game played I have no real clue how either would work. Right now I'm on the fence because I like Pandora's rules more but the sorrow minions and her totem are ugly to me. Lucius, on the other hand, makes me hesitant because his rules are based on him supporting the minions... I'm not too sure how fun that would be. I do really like his models though.

So yeah... any advice you have would be greatly appreciated. Or maybe even after what I described someone could point me in another starter set direction.

Thanks.

Well, his is all theory as I have neither (yet, both are on the list), but personally I'd say go for Lucius if you like his models best. These minis are a) pretty expensive and b) very nice to paint, so to me the models themselves rather than their in-game effect are the most important factor.

As for bing concerned about Lucius's playstyle, there are plenty of Guild models he can bring in that don't have to rely on synergy with him and fit his theme, like Riflemen, Death Marshals or even Witchlings.

Lucius works by giving his minions extra actions, and Pandora by making you hit yourself in the face and taking wounds by failing willpower duels, so they work in quite different ways. They're both fun, but you'll have to look at whichever one you buy, so get the one that appeals to you aesthetically the most. There really aren't many out and out bad models in Malifaux, and neither of these are among them.

Hmm, I guess I have some more reading to do about this game.

The way you describe Pandora doesn't make her sound as fun as in the description I read online. And I have no idea how to build a list.

It seems like certain models synergize well with others. Pandora works well with sorrows, which is a model I don't care for that much, and it seems that each master has a totem. Pandora's totem is so blech to me.

I really like Pandora herself but if I didn't go with the starter set and got random models from neverbron that I thought were cool looking... well... would I end up with something unplayable?

Is either set better than the other? That is to say will either have more playability down the line? I liked the Vickies, for example, but was told that the ronin in box are useless.

Did you read a 1.5E or 2E guide on Pandora? A lot of masters changed a lot in 2E.

In general, Pandora is about controlling your opponents activation order, punishing them for activating models in a certain order (including the order you make them activate in), punishing them for taking actions, and generally doing damage indirectly through failed Willpower tests and making enemy models perform their own melee attacks on themselves.

You can't really go with a master these days without going with a starter set, due to masters only being available in the starter. unless, of course, you manage to hunt down an old separate metal master. Generally, Pandoras plastic starter is a good way to start. You get Sorrows, which while you might not use all 3, are minions that work well with her. You get her Totem, the Poltergeist. You also get Baby Kade and Candy, which are good enforcer/henchman models that work well with her. Add a Teddy (who is a great tanky bruiser and synergises well with Baby Kade) and you've got a good 50ss start to Pandora. A good way to expand on her then is find some metal Insidious Madness models (or a reasonable proxy and wait for the plastic - I like the old Pink Horror models as proxies). Insidious Madness work really well with her.

 -Loki- wrote:
Did you read a 1.5E or 2E guide on Pandora? A lot of masters changed a lot in 2E.

In general, Pandora is about controlling your opponents activation order, punishing them for activating models in a certain order (including the order you make them activate in), punishing them for taking actions, and generally doing damage indirectly through failed Willpower tests and making enemy models perform their own melee attacks on themselves..

I read the 2E guide on Pandora. She sounds very fun to me especially after your description.

I still don't fully understand totems though. It seems like they are paired up based on Master? Like I can't use Cherub or Daydream with Pandora? Or I can and they just won't synergise welll?

I'm looking to play casually with models I like and not necessarily the best ones. I don't know if you can build forces like that in Malifaux though.

There are 2 kinds of Totems. Each master has a personal totem, so the only way to take them is with that master. Others are generic to the faction, and any master can take them.

For example, Pandoras is the Poltergeist. Liliths is the Cherub. The Primordial Magic is generic Neverborn. Lilith can't take the Poltergeist, and Pandora can't take the Cherub, but both can take the Primordial Magic instead of their personal totem.

Personal totems tend to synergise with the master they belong to. The Poltergeist, for example, lets Pandora cast spells from the Poltergeists location instead of her own, with a lower chance to succeed. General totems tend to just perform some odd task but aren't otherwise terribly useful. The Primordial Magic is a good example. it can't fight well, but it acts as a mobile scheme marker. This is hugely useful as Malifaux is an objective driven game.

Malifaux isn't a game where you build 'one list to rule them all'. Your master and army list is chosen after you have determined the games schemes and strategies. basically, you are encouraged to list tailor to the objectives you have, and so is your opponent. This is why some masters are really good at stand up fights, while some are more mobile. Sometimes you don't want to have a stand up fight, while your opponent does.

Generally, most people wind up with a core of models they like for a particular master, then sprinkle in other units as objectives demand. So someone playing Pandora might like the Poltergeist, a pair of Sorrows and Candy as their 'core'. Someone else might prefer a Primordial Magic and a pair of Insidious Mandess as their core. There's not many really terrible units, and some units synergise well with multiple masters.

 -Loki- wrote:
There are 2 kinds of Totems. Each master has a personal totem, so the only way to take them is with that master. Others are generic to the faction, and any master can take them.

For example, Pandoras is the Poltergeist. Liliths is the Cherub. The Primordial Magic is generic Neverborn. Lilith can't take the Poltergeist, and Pandora can't take the Cherub, but both can take the Primordial Magic instead of their personal totem.

Well that clears up a lot! Thanks. Sometimes google just fails you.

I do kind of remember now that army lists or whatnot are built once the scenario is chosen. That's kind of neat but I wanted to start off on the small side.

I think most people buy 2 starter boxes of the same faction and go from there?

Would a starter box of Lucius and Pandora work together? They don't seem to be a popular combination when I google around but they are both neverborn and could use the same units?

I have no idea lol. I wish you could buy the masters separate. I'd love to just buy Pandora, a doppleganger, maybe beckoners and the insidious madness models. Unfortunately her old metal model looks very ugly to my eye.

Lucius is a supporting/scheming master. He's not particularly tough or killy, but he can be very slippery with all his abilities (switching places with friendly models, forcing enemies to get - flips to attacks, etc) and makes his minions shine by giving them extra action after extra action. A typical Lucius game features the man himself strutting up and down the back midfield, bossing his minions around, swapping places with key models, dumping scheme markers everywhere and calling in his hidden sniper to eliminate problem targets (or just dump more scheme markers!). He'll inevitably lose models, but has enough markers and VPs from schemes to win.

Malifaux is unlike most games in that you build your crew after knowing your opponent and strategy/schemes. Lucius is a master you reach for in less killy schemes. Have to hold markers on the center line? Have to create a crop of markers and hold them end game? Have to set off explosives or spring a trap with placed markers? Lucius is your man/mimic.

Lucius is also dual faction Guild/Neverborn, so you can take him and Pandora and use both as the situation calls for it as Neverborn. The main limitation here is that Lucius' crew box is all Guild models, which Lucius can dip into even while playing Neverborn, but other masters like Pandora can't use.

Say you like both, so grab their crew boxes, a Teddy for a big beater/good synergy with Kade and some fun minions like Insidious Madness or Stitched Together. Riflemen are a favorite pick for Lucius. Doppelganger is a wonderful toolbox. Maybe pick up Lynch's crew box for the super killy Illuminated and a more direct damage focused Master. Not a fan of Poltergeist? Primordial Magic is the universal Neverborn totem and is pretty awesome.

Lucius isn't easy to use well. Dora has an even steeper learning curve.

Start Lucius, you'll end up with an easier time getting into the game.

See, I have to disagree there. This isn't a game where there's really an easy master to start with, especially Neverborn. Even Lilith, considered standard starter master for Neverborn, has tons of depth, and is fairly misleading at first glance. Most people start with her and think she's a beatstick, when playing her has a beatstick will just get her killed.

If the OP likes Pandora and her playstyle, just start with Pandora and learn her. Like with most games, you're going to lose a lot at the beginning anyway, so might as well do it with the crew you really want and just learn to use it better.

I've never used Lucius, but having played against him, I'm surprised that he isn't considered a top tier master. His ability to hand out extra actions to his minions all over the place is just super impressive. I'm not sure if he's better as Neverborn or Guild, but if I ever stray into one of those factions, it'll be for him.

 tomjoad wrote:
I've never used Lucius, but having played against him, I'm surprised that he isn't considered a top tier master. His ability to hand out extra actions to his minions all over the place is just super impressive. I'm not sure if he's better as Neverborn or Guild, but if I ever stray into one of those factions, it'll be for him.

A lot of people like to complain that Lucius is too greedy for cards/suits and that he needs condition removal badly (which has some merit, as he's one of the few masters in the game that can casually paralyze his own crew). However, seeing as the rest of his crew needs very little in terms of suits/gets tons of positive flips if you've got Dashel to focus, he can recycle soulstones (which is wonderful with Depleted), and he can use his Lawyers to reduce horror duel issues, he's a pretty fantastic master.

Not to mention the dirty Illuminated + Black Blood Shaman + Fees combination... *shivers.

Lucius can be a brilliant, almost unplayable master.

The problem with deciding on a master is that because the game is dependant on the schemes drawn, you won't need the same models every time. Honestly, I would go with both if the wallet allows, so you can have a little flex. I started with Orphella and Som'er, as I wanted an in your face beatstick (Orphella is awesome at this) and a summoner/support style (Som'er is a quality jack of all trades with the right upgrades) master.

Go with what models you like, and you can't go wrong. It's a brilliant game I can't praise enough.

Thanks much for all the replies guys.

I definitely would buy them both if the wallet allowed but unfortunately it does not. I'm trying to get some models that I can use a good majority of the time without having to waste space in my bag.

I'm leaning towards Lucius after what has been said. I still like Pandora a lot too but the last few posts make me think Lucius is the one for me.

Actually, has anyone ever played him as Neverborn? Most lists I see use him as pure guild.

Would it work if I bought Pandora box set and then Lucius as a separate model? That way I could use them both as Neverborn? I think he used to be sold as an old metal mini?

Otherwise, I might just go with Lucius and pick up another box of Guild down the line. None of the other masters there really pop out at me... that's one of the reasons I was leaning Pandora.

But, in all fairness, I'm probably not going to be playing this game too much. I just don't have the time :/ So perhaps building a one master army wouldn't be such a bad idea as most of the people I will be playing with are just getting into the game too and will be doing the same thing.

If you want to play Lucius on the cheap, the easiest way is to grab his box plus a box of riflemen. Guild Lucius isn't better, it's just that his box is all Guild models and he can only take up to 4 of them in a Neverborn crew.

 Chumbalaya wrote:
If you want to play Lucius on the cheap, the easiest way is to grab his box plus a box of riflemen. Guild Lucius isn't better, it's just that his box is all Guild models and he can only take up to 4 of them in a Neverborn crew.

Cool I think I will do just that.

Do you mean his "Bound by Law" box? Or should I be looking for an old OOP single of him?

Also, when you say he can only take up to 4 of them in a Neverborn crew... do you mean he can take Guild models in a Neverborn crew? I thought with dual faction he had to choose one or the other.

I can't believe I am having so much trouble choosing a starter box. I love the idea of the neverborn but I am not attracted to most of the monster looking models. I like Lucius but people are telling me he is really hard to learn and play with.

Perhaps I should go with Jakob Lynch instead? I've heard he is similar in style yet worlds easier to play.

Dual faction just means that he can be taken regardless of whether you're playing Guild or Neverborn. Normally, declaring neverborn means yoy can only take neverborn models and upgrades. Lucius has an upgrade that allows him to take up yo 4 Guardsman or Mimic models regardless of faction. So with that upgrade he can take Dopoelganger and Candy in a Guild crew or Dashel and riflemen in neverborn.

Lucius is a more complex master, but mostly that just means he can't run across the table screaming at people. He's a blast to play if you like being a sneaky, conniving supervillain.

Ultimately, play with the models you like. If you like Lucius, run him. Same goes with Dora or Lynch. Malifaux is a well balanced game, more focused on adaptability and getting VPs than pure power. Personally, I think between Lucius and Lynch's crew boxes and a few additions like Mr. Graves, Tannen, Beckoners, doppelganger or stitched together you'd have a fantastic neverborn arsenal to choose from. And maybe those riflemen for Lucius since he loves them so

 Chumbalaya wrote:
Dual faction just means that he can be taken regardless of whether you're playing Guild or Neverborn. Normally, declaring neverborn means yoy can only take neverborn models and upgrades. Lucius has an upgrade that allows him to take up yo 4 Guardsman or Mimic models regardless of faction. So with that upgrade he can take Dopoelganger and Candy in a Guild crew or Dashel and riflemen in neverborn.

Lucius is a more complex master, but mostly that just means he can't run across the table screaming at people. He's a blast to play if you like being a sneaky, conniving supervillain.

Ultimately, play with the models you like. If you like Lucius, run him. Same goes with Dora or Lynch. Malifaux is a well balanced game, more focused on adaptability and getting VPs than pure power. Personally, I think between Lucius and Lynch's crew boxes and a few additions like Mr. Graves, Tannen, Beckoners, doppelganger or stitched together you'd have a fantastic neverborn arsenal to choose from. And maybe those riflemen for Lucius since he loves them so

Cool. I'm convinced!

I really like that Lucius has that upgrade (you can buy it anytime right?) that lets him mix units. I haven't seen any others that can do that mechanic.

So I think I'll grab the Bound by Law box set, Guild Rifleman, and maybe Beckoner or Doppleganger? From there I can have some fun? I'm worried that there won't be much for me to use in the Bound by Law box other than Lucius himself but there doesn't seem to be any better option for getting him.

I really like Lynch's gambler style but I really dislike the Illuminated in his box. The Hungering Darkness is kinda... idk... I'm on the fence about it. Kind of the same way I feel about the Dreamer... Lord Chompy Bits is so neat but too over the top for my tastes.

That's more than enough. Dashel is great for buffing your guardsmen and riflemen, makes them more action efficient. Guardsmen are cheap activations who ate relatively durable and good for scheming. Between all that stuff you have over 50SS of models before upgrades, which is plenty to learn with and has flexibility to change up according to schemes.

ecchu wrote:
I really like that Lucius has that upgrade (you can buy it anytime right?) that lets him mix units. I haven't seen any others that can do that mechanic.

You mean the one that lets him take a few Neverborn units when aligned to Guild? Zoraida has a similar one. She has an upgrade that lets her take any Swampfiend, so when aligned to Gremlins she can still take her normal selection of swamp Neverborn. When aligned to Neverborn, she can take the few Swampfiend units scattered around other factions. She also has a skill that lets her take any Gremlin units below a certain Willpower level, which winds up being a lot of them.

Most 10T masters have something similar, and Hoffman, Tara, and Marcus do as well. Plus, Leveticus is the king of out of faction hiring.

Well, I ended up going a completely opposite direction and bought Dark Debts and a box of 10T Archers.

I just couldn't get over Lynch's fluff. I hope it works out. And, if not, I guess I can expand into Neverborn with Lucius still.

I hope this game is fun! Thanks for the help all.

Lynch looks like a blast to play too. I just built his crew, haven't had a chance to try them out.

Lynch is a very strong master, and more straightforward than the other two you were looking at. his thematic set is really nice, and has just about anything you'd want except a really heavy hitter or a condition remover.

Bonus points, Lucius runs well with Lynch's models, with a bunch of mimics and illuminated are great minions. Expanding from Lynch to Lucius would be buying Lynch's box and some riflement (riflemen are only necessary to run dashel, not to run lynch-- I think it was really unfortunate they decided to throw in a support henchman without anything he supports well).

Lucius is quite restrictive regarding list and his hand, but fun to play. I wouldn't recommend him as a first master, though, since if you're not managing things well, he'll be walking around without anything in useful range or hitting things in melee, neither of which is playing him optimally.