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I think that since loyalists gets to have razorback then csm should be able to trick out their rhinos.
1st is to allow 2 squads 5 men into a rhino. Lets called it rhino squad special rule like loyalist combat squad. That way i can have 2 squads of 5 plague marines with 4 special guns. Or 2 squads of 5 chosen with 8 special guns. Or 2 squads of havocs with 8 heavy guns. All sharing a ride with in a rhino. Or we can combo such as kb to protect havocs in ccq. Or plague to protect chosen.
2nd this has been suggest so many times b4. Allow rhino to have option of open top for free. This will turn it into an assault vehicle and a gun boat. The riders are clad in pa so they can shrug of stuff with sv3. This will make Tsons very viable as they do drive by inferno bolters. You can also have gunboat of nm and 10 sonic blasters ignoring cover shots!
3rd allow an option to affix a autocannon for 10pts (no tl) and reduce troop cap to 8. By comparison to a ig salamander which is a chimera with an ac turret and a hull mounted hb, which cost 45pts is so much better than what I am proposing.
4th allow an option to buy more smoke grenades at 2ppm. Wave serpents get a 10pt upgrade that shields and is an offensive weapon. I intend to use smoke for cover saves for rhino often and to blind enemies shooting out of cover forcing them to run out of cover to get los or waste turns not shooting and being engulfed in line of sight blocking smoke.
5th make destroyer blades cheaper. Cmon its just a bunch of pointy metal welded to the grill.
6th allow 2nd hml
7th Let 10 cultist ride inside and another 10 clinging on the top and hanging on sides. They provide cover and act as meat shields for high strength and armor piercing by providing a look out sir kind of roll like helcult formation while rhino av shrug off small arms fire.
8th if open top is made available, It would be awesome to also be able to transport a Helbrute! Imagine rhinos being dedicated transport for helbrutes ! the rhino would always be driving back wards With the backing up warning Sound!
9th allow hidden synergy of havoc squad transforming a rhino into a predator by opening side door and top hatch. 2 hb or lc havocs fire out of the side doors and 2 havocs peeking out on top hatch shooting their 2 ac or lc as if it were tl. It would have fv11 instead of av13 but would cost a bit more than a pred but once this ghetto pred gets wrecked or explodes, a squad of havocs can disembark and continue fighting. also the ghetto pred would have independent gunners so they shoot multiple targets while being protected in rhino.
Hell with this set up we can a plasma pred if the havoc squad takes 4 plasma guns. It can even be a weaker baal predator with cheapo flamers. it can even have sky fire missile Launchers! all with the snail mobility and cardboard box armor of a rhino!
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2015/03/24 17:07:37
I think they need to introduce some kind of "rediscovered" Heresy era assault vehicle that is open topped, carries 15-20 dudes, is slow (something like it can only move 6" and flat out another 6") but ignores difficult and dangerous terrain.
Lolz, How about we have a backwards rhino! Its top speed in reverse is 6" and the back door hatch becomes the front! Lolz!!!
a freaking rhino already costs 35 pts, you want an army that's already over costed to pay another 20pts which is more than half its price to make it assault ramp?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bobthehero wrote: 2 squads of havocs with lascannons in the rhino, why would you ever take preds after that
make that rhino open topped and it becomes the greatest card board box transport!
also the faux predator would only allow 1 heavy/spec gun per sponson slot and req 2 of the same guns on top so it becomes tl instead of 2x the shots. Fitting second havoc squad with heavy guns they cant shoot while all being protected. But open top upgrade would allow everyone inside to shoot at bs1 due to snap fire and make them vulnerable. the Dangers of open top where blast and flamers would make it a fair free trade upgrade. If anything it should cost 2pts for some one to cut open the top hatch.
faux pred would allow independent targeting but the snap fire rules apply with heavy guns. However 1 gun may be fired ag full bs like a regular pred and the rest snap shot if the faux pred moved. That way you full bs a side sponson and then snap the tl faux turret and other side sponson. The squad inside is protected until you buy rhino a open top upgrade rendering faux pred pointless.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/03/24 23:07:50
Fix Chaos Land Raiders, and expand on some Chaos-only Raiders.
Boom.
As an aside, the comparison which brings up the IG Salamander.... FAIL.
Salamanders cannot carry any infantry models whatsoever. The closest equivalent would be a Chimera with an Autocannon turret, which costs around 75 or 80 points, IIRC.
Or a Taurox, with it's twin-linked Autocannon, which costs about 55. Sure, it's only BS3, but 55 points is round about where a Rhino with an Autocannon would sit, since it's pretty much trading the All-Terrain rule and Twin-Link on the gun for BS4, Repair, and access to the amazing Dirge Caster.
Lolz this guys still butt hurt about the hb stand/mount costing 5pts i proposed.
I reread the r&h version of salamanders and its true, its not a transport. Lets compare it to its brother the razorback then. Also i dont want it tl because it would cost more than 10pts.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/24 23:29:49
The Razorback loses both firepoints and four models of transport capacity in order to mount heavy weapons.
The truly simple solution is to just fix Land Raiders in general- but in this instance, especially the Traitor Marine variants.
There's also the fact that the whole "HB tripod accounts for 5 points" is blatantly stupid and displays overt favoritism of a particular group of armies- the majority of which are Marines.
I do not want to play favorites, I want balance. This is also why most of your suggestions are bad- they do not bring balance, they are either brokenly powerful or flat-out stupid.
Are there any other vehicles with power armoured troops that are open topped? I believe the land speeder is used as an example of how their armour removes the open-topped element.
Just allow an assault ramp for 25-35 pts and it's golden. There are so many good assault options in CSM book that just need an assault vehicle. ~60-70 pts is a reasonable price for 11-11-10 assault vehicle that can transport mellee units that are effective in 5-10 strong squads.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/25 05:42:41
Whiskey144 wrote: The Razorback loses both firepoints and four models of transport capacity in order to mount heavy weapons.
The truly simple solution is to just fix Land Raiders in general- but in this instance, especially the Traitor Marine variants.
There's also the fact that the whole "HB tripod accounts for 5 points" is blatantly stupid and displays overt favoritism of a particular group of armies- the majority of which are Marines.
I do not want to play favorites, I want balance. This is also why most of your suggestions are bad- they do not bring balance, they are either brokenly powerful or flat-out stupid.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/03/25 06:21:12
... nah, Chaos Marines are totally more into Nightcore.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
Experiment 626 wrote: How about we just have an option to upgrade a basic Rhino with an Assault Ramp for a decent +20-30pts or so...
Get out one of your rhinos. Can you take a photo of the part that looks like it would have assault ramp rules like the land raider and storm Ravens'?
You could still keep the side access points and give the Chaos Rhino kit a new updated upgrade sprue that includes new side doors that give the impression of opening in a similar manner to the Land Raider's front ramp.
Plus it would give GW the opportunity to add in missing bitz such as a Combi-Melta and Plasma guns, Destroyer Blades, etc...
I'd happily pay a cost similar to what Loyalists pay for the likes of the assault cannon Razorbacks for an av11/11/10 transport that my predominately assault units can charge out of.
Paying only say 40-50pts though for the same? That'd be just too amazing of a deal, and opponents would certainly not enjoy facing a fully mech'ed up army of those.
If I'm really honest, then yeah, a Rhino variant that functioned as some kind of low-cost assault transport would be nice for CSM.
I just don't really see it happening, because GW seems to be more interested in giving the CSM things like daemon dinobots and completely ignoring why the Traitors don't have Whirlwinds or Land Speeders anymore, (despite both such assets being in widespread all-over-the-place usage before and during the Heresy) instead of emphasizing the whole "oh, yeah, because lolWarptimedickery we actually have buttloads of Heresy-era gubbins just laying around. Problem, Loyalist?"
I mean seriously, does GW really expect us to believe that the Traitor Legions have been so... idiotic, as to waste enormous amounts of equipment such that all they have left is Rhinos, Predators, Vindicators, and basic Land Raiders?
First 2 suggestions seem fair enough. Autocannon for a rhino for 10pts is too good though -it would be hands down a superior vehicle to a razorback and would arguably put predators on the sideline too.
As an imperial player I'd like to point out that you already get better rhinos that us for one reason -havoc launchers. I'd gladly give up all imperial-exclusive rhino upgrades and the option to tun razorbacks just to have access to havoc launchers.
Pt3. But the ac is not a tl like the razorback. If the ac becomes tl then it is a pred turret and lose all troop carry cap and top hatch fire point. When I proposed the rule I had intended to also write in that the 2 fire points from top hatch are lost and troop carry cap is reduced by 2 instead of 4 like a razorback with tl heavy guns. Also I never understood how a marine or ighwt can carry a gun with equivalent fire power of a pred tank turret. The pred tank turret should be a different weapon. Like a double shot ml. 2 s8 ap3 shots.
You really want a hml? Its only good at killing GEq. Also you can only move cruising speed of 6" and elect it as full bs since you can not snap fire it. If you move 12" then you can only snap fire ergo you can not shoot the hml. If h check most csm lists on this very forum you will find few rhinos with hml.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/03/26 18:12:16
Filch wrote: Thank you for agreeing on points 1&2.
Pt3. But the ac is not a tl like the razorback. If the ac becomes tl then it is a pred turret and lose all troop carry cap and top hatch fire point. When I proposed the rule I had intended to also write in that the 2 fire points from top hatch are lost and troop carry cap is reduced by 2 instead of 4 like a razorback with tl heavy guns. Also I never understood how a marine or ighwt can carry a gun with equivalent fire power of a pred tank turret. The pred tank turret should be a different weapon. Like a double shot ml. 2 s8 ap3 shots.
You really want a hml? Its only good at killing GEq. Also you can only move cruising speed of 6" and elect it as full bs since you can not snap fire it. If you move 12" then you can only snap fire ergo you can not shoot the hml. If h check most csm lists on this very forum you will find few rhinos with hml.
Yeah the pred's single autocannon isn't the most spectacular weapon as the main armament of a tank, but it has it's uses. My main issue is that if you could run a rhino with an autocannon and transport 8, it would be an excellent choice for a mechanised infantry list. Too excellent! Even with the reduction of frontal AV 13 to Av11 if i had access to such a vehicle I'd likely never use a predator or a razorback.
Why I think the havoc's are so great is that once your rhino has disembarked its passengers it can pop away with S5 shots, and either do damage over time, or attract some firepower from your more valuable targets. Works particualarly well if you can reverse it up a bit and find some cover to enhance its resilience. True, I can do the same with my rhinos, but a storm bolter is going to be a nuisance at best.
I hear you about the razorback, but they're not as great as they seem -its a rhino +20 pts and you losing 4 passengers to strap on a tl heavy bolter, I find that a questionable trade off. Twin ass can, twin lascan or lasplas make it a trreatening light vehicle but then you're putting 75 pts on an AV11 hull. I find them to be a middling vehicle. I'd sooner run cheaper rhinos and keep the expensive heavy weapons on my predators, which will stand more of a chance at surviving.
Renesco P. Blue wrote: I think they need to introduce some kind of "rediscovered" Heresy era assault vehicle that is open topped, carries 15-20 dudes, is slow (something like it can only move 6" and flat out another 6") but ignores difficult and dangerous terrain.
There is a cheap-ish assault vehicle - the dreadclaw. But yes, I don't see a rhino paying 20-25pts for assault usr to be broken. It'd be good though. I'd even pay 30pts for it. 60/65pts for a 11/11/10 3hp assault tank with a pair of combi-bolters. Seems fair.
I like the "jury rigged" aesthetic of chaos more than the "legion heresy super-relic" one. That said, a Castellum Rhino that starts off at AV 13/13/11 until it first moves would be nice for doing things Iron Warrior-style.
Renesco P. Blue wrote: I think they need to introduce some kind of "rediscovered" Heresy era assault vehicle that is open topped, carries 15-20 dudes, is slow (something like it can only move 6" and flat out another 6") but ignores difficult and dangerous terrain.
Renesco P. Blue wrote: I think they need to introduce some kind of "rediscovered" Heresy era assault vehicle that is open topped, carries 15-20 dudes, is slow (something like it can only move 6" and flat out another 6") but ignores difficult and dangerous terrain.
Rhino Advancer:
11/11/10 4hps (it's bigger) bs4, 2 tl bolters, opentopped, tank, smoke granades, dozorblades, transport capacity of 20. 80pts.
Option as a dedicated transport for CSM of all varieties, or any C:SM unit not including scouts. Cannot carry models in terminator armour.
Option of extra armour +5pts, stormbolter +5pts, searchlight +1pt.
Whatcha think?
Filch wrote: So how do i make this tournament legal? I want to be able to run this legit without homebrew rules.
You don't.
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