Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So I emailed FW about the absurdity of a dreadclaw having a 1/6 of a chance of eating a dreadnought that could cost upto 200pts before the game even begins, making the dreadclaw a pointless option for transporting dreads, and highlighting the fact that this would very likely be a game deciding roll, on a single d6, before a game even begins, in any battle 2000pts or under.
Their response is highlighted perfectly in this quote from the email 'of course a pod can eat a dreadnought'.

So there you have it - CSM dreads are still forced to footslog.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unless you take a mayhem pack of course.

hhaghahhahahaaaaaahaahh... is like they don't want to sell their own products

I know - it's ridiculous!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They did mention that they like to houserule a 4+ roll on rules that aren't clear or they don't think make sense, but that's not their official line on this.

yeah we easily house ruled this.... they cant eat dreads....

it tries and busts its teeth... done deal.

I mean i dont see who would have issues with that other than WAACers.

a dread in a pod is SUPER expensive so it autodying like that is almost an outright game loser. no fun for either side.

you could just have it take a hull point though

I just hope that people will respond by not buying this product, but I guess that's not going to happen.

Chaospling wrote:
I just hope that people will respond by not buying this product, but I guess that's not going to happen.

i buy products because i like them and think they look cool. If we dont like certain rules we change them. Anyone can do this. I dont really understand why anyone is beholden to "oddities" such as this. the FW guys play narrative only games so their "rulings" are the same as any other groups. Do what makes logical sense and everyone has fun.

Chaospling wrote:
I just hope that people will respond by not buying this product, but I guess that's not going to happen.

...

Duh?

Why would this make people ragequit! buying a dreadclaw?

Tbf a dreadclaw is amazingly excellent with infantry inside it, as that 1/6 isn't a huge deal then. So people will still buy it. It's just pants at transporting dreads.

 Portugal Jones wrote:

Chaospling wrote:
I just hope that people will respond by not buying this product, but I guess that's not going to happen.

...

Duh?

Why would this make people ragequit! buying a dreadclaw?

I'm not sure I understand you either... What I wrote was that I hope that the people who hate these rules put their money where their mouths are and don't buy the Dreadclaw model.

Poly Ranger wrote:
So I emailed FW about the absurdity of a dreadclaw having a 1/6 of a chance of eating a dreadnought that could cost upto 200pts before the game even begins, making the dreadclaw a pointless option for transporting dreads, and highlighting the fact that this would very likely be a game deciding roll, on a single d6, before a game even begins, in any battle 2000pts or under.
Their response is highlighted perfectly in this quote from the email 'of course a pod can eat a dreadnought'.

So there you have it - CSM dreads are still forced to footslog.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unless you take a mayhem pack of course.

You want all the reward but none of the risk? tisk tisk.

I think Forge World shouldnt be allowed as it is but some TO's still don't get the memo, so since it apparently is in your meta, All I can say is, live by the sword, die by the sword.

@Jancoran: Well there's just too many downsides compared to the actual utility when we at the same time have to pay for this. Take the Daemonic Possession for example, fair enough if some infantry model is lost if a Hull Point is recovered, but why at the beginning of the battle where nothing is gained? We almost get immunity from Crew Shaken and Crew Stunned results but BS is reduced to 3.
On top of this you have to pay for this equipment by lost models and point costs... Would you use a 100 points model which have a 1/6 chance of killing the 100-200 points unit being transported before the game has started?
Damn it would put my mind at ease if I heard GW's and Forgeworld's explanations of some of their decisions.

That's fething hilarious. For the Emperor!

Quite frankly, you can buy a cluster of Dreads that Deep Strike for free... you don't even need to buy pods for them. Seriously, why Dreadclaw them anyhow?

it flies?

I emailed Forgeworld yesterday about the Battle of Sarosh Legacy of Glory, as it's written quite poorly and leaves some questions unanswered.

I just got a response with house rules. Kinda lol.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Quite frankly, you can buy a cluster of Dreads that Deep Strike for free... you don't even need to buy pods for them. Seriously, why Dreadclaw them anyhow?

Because I may want dreads that aren't 3 hellbrutes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
[spoiler]

 Jancoran wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
So I emailed FW about the absurdity of a dreadclaw having a 1/6 of a chance of eating a dreadnought that could cost upto 200pts before the game even begins, making the dreadclaw a pointless option for transporting dreads, and highlighting the fact that this would very likely be a game deciding roll, on a single d6, before a game even begins, in any battle 2000pts or under.
Their response is highlighted perfectly in this quote from the email 'of course a pod can eat a dreadnought'.

So there you have it - CSM dreads are still forced to footslog.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unless you take a mayhem pack of course.

You want all the reward but none of the risk? tisk tisk.

I think Forge World shouldnt be allowed as it is but some TO's still don't get the memo, so since it apparently is in your meta, All I can say is, live by the sword, die by the sword.

None of the risk? It's 65pts more than a normal drop pod for the bonus of being a mobile skimmer with assault usr. You already pay for it with those 65pts. The fact it will eat a, say, 185pt ferrum dread on a 1 before the game even begins is just a free upgrade for the opponent that can just destroy the game before it even begins.

Do you also have a house rule that units over a certain point value can not suffer a "destroyed" mishap when deep striking? What about a rule that your favorite unit can ignore failed saves until the final turn of the game, since it's no fun if your best stuff dies too early?

a mobile SCORING unit for 65 points that allows you to drop and kill?

Like I say, live by the sword, die by the sword. With great risk comes great reward.

 tenebre wrote:

Chaospling wrote:
I just hope that people will respond by not buying this product, but I guess that's not going to happen.

i buy products because i like them and think they look cool. If we dont like certain rules we change them. Anyone can do this. I dont really understand why anyone is beholden to "oddities" such as this. the FW guys play narrative only games so their "rulings" are the same as any other groups. Do what makes logical sense and everyone has fun.

Why are you paying GW/Forgeworld for rules if you're just going to write your own anyway?

 Peregrine wrote:
Do you also have a house rule that units over a certain point value can not suffer a "destroyed" mishap when deep striking? What about a rule that your favorite unit can ignore failed saves until the final turn of the game, since it's no fun if your best stuff dies too early?

Deepstriking a monolith (for example) near cover is your own choice. Deepstriking in the open is almost always an option. And as it is, the risk of mishaps is much less. This doesn't give you a choice aside from taking it or not taking it. It is literally a 1/6 of a chance of loosing it, not based on any tactical decisions of deepstiking too close to units or cover.
Also your opponent has invested absolutely nothing in killing it - unlike what they have to do to kill ANYTHING else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jancoran wrote:
a mobile SCORING unit for 65 points that allows you to drop and kill?

Like I say, live by the sword, die by the sword. With great risk comes great reward.

Every unit scores in 7th. And there are many, many units in the game which are not immobile and cost less than 100pts, so I don't see what you are getting at.

This is a risk you cannot mitigate/change in any way. It does not care about tactics or how you plan on using it. It is a straigh 1/6 roll. It is not affected by skill in the slightest.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I ask you this:
Is a ferrum dreadnought with destroyer of cities and dedication of khorne for example, in a dreadclaw broken at 285pts? Is it even that competitive? Then why should it suffer from a 1/6 chance of dying before the game even begins?
Would you accept having to roll a 1/6 for every landraider to see if it blows up before a game begins? Or would that be just a little silly?

Or do you actually think this is a fair rule? Because if you do, there is absolutely no point in us discussing this, because we are so diametrically opposed and I cannot even begin to understand the thinking of somebody who thinks it is a remotely balanced rule. In fact if anybody thinks this balanced, I would have to seriously question their judgement of balanced.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Deepstriking a monolith (for example) near cover is your own choice. Deepstriking in the open is almost always an option. And as it is the risk of mishaps is much less. This doesn't give you a choice aside from taking it or not taking it. It is literally a 1/6 of a chance of loosing it, not based on any tactical decisions of deepstiking too close to units or cover.

And your point is? You have a choice to use the drop pod to gain a significant advantage for your dread in exchange for a 1/6 chance of losing it. What you're doing is removing the risk because you don't like taking risks but still want the powerful upgrade.

This is a risk you cannot mitigate/change in any way. It does not care about tactics or how you plan on using it. It is a straigh 1/6 roll. It is not affected by skill in the slightest.

Risk doesn't have to allow a "skill" option to change it. Do you also house rule away "gets hot" from plasma weapons because that's just a 1/6 roll with no skill involved?

Is a ferrum dreadnought with destroyer of cities and dedication of khorne for example, in a dreadclaw broken at 285pts? Is it even that competitive? Then why should it suffer from a 1/6 chance of dying before the game even begins?

Who cares if it's broken or not? The rules are that it has a 1/6 chance of dying before the game begins. Your house rule is nothing more than "make my unit more powerful", which puts it in the same category as making my lasguns STR 4 because I want to kill more with them.

Would you accept having to roll a 1/6 for every landraider to see if it blows up before a game begins?

If GW published those rules then yes, I would accept that Land Raiders have a 1/6 chance of dying before the game begins and make my decision about whether to use a Land Raider based on that rule. I would not complain and demand a house rule to make my Land Raiders more powerful.

I never saw a point in buying them from FW anyways. Just buy your own Drop Pod and convert it. They tend to look nicer anyways. Why spend that much on a model that gets nailed at the borders for tax upon tax as well as being overly priced and having bad bubbles / casts... I havent had a good buy from them model wise in 4 tries... At least my IA13 came in at only 180$ >.>

You are paying for the advantage - you're paying 100 ruddy points for it!
If a plasma gunner dies (note, during - not before a game), that doesn't dramatically effect the flow of the game, the 'gets hot' balances out the st7, ap2 and rapid fire. Most plasma weaponary without this (looking at relics) costs 5/10pts more. You also get an armour save.
Risks for get hot can be STILL be changed by all sorts of things such as;
-Twinlinked
-Prescience
-Ammo dump
-Preferred enemy
-Improved armour saves
Not so for the dreadclaw.

And can you please quote ONCE where I have suggested a houserule for it please?

All I have done is share information from an email, declared that imo it makes the dreadclaw unusable for dreads and said how ridiculous the rule is. Which part do you disagree with?
If you disagree with the information I shared, email FW yourself.
If you disagree with the dreadclaw being unusable for dreads then please explain how you can recover from a 285pt handicap in a game under 2000pts as CSM.
If you disagree that it is a ridiculous rule then how is it usable? See previous sentence.

Come now Perrie, you too know that this is not good game design.

A Warlord Trait that gives you a 2% chance to automatically win the battle on turn 1, and a 2% to instead autolose, would be balanced (literally) but it would be a badly designed trait.

This is similar, in that you already pay a lot of points, and the points cost does not justify such an absurd risk. The investment is too great to justify a random autodeath like that.

 tenebre wrote:

Chaospling wrote:
I just hope that people will respond by not buying this product, but I guess that's not going to happen.

i buy products because i like them and think they look cool. If we dont like certain rules we change them. Anyone can do this. I dont really understand why anyone is beholden to "oddities" such as this. the FW guys play narrative only games so their "rulings" are the same as any other groups. Do what makes logical sense and everyone has fun.

The rules are there so you can expect atleast a decent game with strangers as playing a freindly game with friends isnt always a luxury one can get. Why is this such a hard concept to grasp, some have to travel for hours to get to their game club, if the club is very small the selection of opponents will be minimal on the other hand if its a very large club your more likley to play against a complete stranger.

The rules arent there for your FRIENDS they are there for when your friends arent available.

Poly Ranger wrote:
If a plasma gunner dies (note, during - not before a game), that doesn't dramatically effect the flow of the game, the 'gets hot' balances out the st7, ap2 and rapid fire. Most plasma weaponary without this (looking at relics) costs 5/10pts more. You also get an armour save.

And getting to deep strike a unit that can't normally deep strike balances out the risk of having the unit die.

Not so for the dreadclaw.

Not true at all. You can put a cheaper dread (or even an infantry unit) in the pod so that losing it isn't such a big deal, you can stop assuming that you're deep striking every game and only put the dread in the pod when you know you absolutely need to and the risk is justified, etc.

And can you please quote ONCE where I have suggested a houserule for it please?

You're right, it was someone else who mentioned the house rule. Sorry for the confusion.

If you disagree with the dreadclaw being unusable for dreads then please explain how you can recover from a 285pt handicap in a game under 2000pts as CSM.

The same way you recover from any other early loss. If losing a 300 point unit costs you the game then your army and/or strategy are bad and you have bigger problems than a drop pod eating something. And perhaps if you're very concerned about the risk then you shouldn't put 285 points worth of stuff in a dangerous transport. I'm pretty sure CSM have dread options that are cheaper than 285 points.

If you disagree that it is a ridiculous rule then how is it usable? See previous sentence.

It's usable by accepting the risk of losing a unit. Maybe you should play IG or orks for a while so that you can get used to the idea of all of your units being expendable and expected to die.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Come now Perrie, you too know that this is not good game design.

I'm not saying it's perfect, but the general concept of a dangerous drop pod is just fine. The much bigger design issue is that our perception of what a deep strike unit should be is skewed by loyalist marines getting cheap risk-free deep strike for every infantry unit. If you set aside the bad design of loyalist drop pods and only look at other deep strike units then a 1/6 chance of killing a dread isn't so bad.

A Warlord Trait that gives you a 2% chance to automatically win the battle on turn 1, and a 2% to instead autolose, would be balanced (literally) but it would be a badly designed trait.

But that's a massive exaggeration. Losing a dread isn't an automatic win or automatic loss, it's just another random roll in a game full of random rolls. In fact, I'd argue that losing a dread early probably has much less of an effect on the outcome of the game than the roll to get (and cast) invisibility, or getting a good warlord trait instead of a useless one. If a single lascannon shot destroys that dread on turn 1 (possible but very unlikely) then the outcome is effectively the same, but I don't see anyone arguing that dreads should be immune to turn-1 "explodes" results.

It's literally a 1/6 chance to lose 300+ points (the dred, and the now empty claw) before the battle even starts. That's not fun for either player.
Houserule gak that isnt fun. Just have both parties sign on, and dont expect every random pub to go along with it.

 McGibs wrote:
It's literally a 1/6 chance to lose 300+ points (the dred, and the now empty claw) before the battle even starts.

You do realize that, unlike basic drop pods, the dreadclaw is still a transport and can move/embark units/etc once it delivers its initial cargo, right? And can attack other units? It might have failed in its primary role but it's still a relevant unit for the rest of the game.

That's not fun for either player.

Neither is losing a major unit to a deep strike mishap. Do you also think there should be a house rule that important units can never suffer "destroyed" results on the mishap table? What about unfortunate results on the damage table? Should I be able to force you to re-roll the damage result if your random lascannon shot destroys my 250 point tank on turn 1?

 Peregrine wrote:

 McGibs wrote:
It's literally a 1/6 chance to lose 300+ points (the dred, and the now empty claw) before the battle even starts.

You do realize that, unlike basic drop pods, the dreadclaw is still a transport and can move/embark units/etc once it delivers its initial cargo, right? And can attack other units? It might have failed in its primary role but it's still a relevant unit for the rest of the game.

That's still a dred gone to waste for nothing. Can the dreadclaw make up the 300+ points that it and the dred are worth on its own?

Neither is losing a major unit to a deep strike mishap. Do you also think there should be a house rule that important units can never suffer "destroyed" results on the mishap table? What about unfortunate results on the damage table? Should I be able to force you to re-roll the damage result if your random lascannon shot destroys my 250 point tank on turn 1?

You might want to quote the relevant part of that sentence for that statement rather then tossing out accusatory statements.

before the battle even starts.

It reminds one of the old 3rd edition craftworld Altoic list, which could screw an army before even the first turn.