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 Ignatius wrote:
I've made great pains to illustrate that Deep Striking often has nothing to do with Reserves. I've said that a couple times- and am still being contended on it (see first part of my response).

You have uncovered the only part of my argument that I have no real answer for, as I am looking for a reason that "further" would be in there. Stand by and I'll find something. If not, then I will understand the limitation of my argument and will say it as such.

You are correct, on both points. Arriving by Deep Strike (not necessarily from Reserves) is indeed considered as a move, by the word "Further". It may arguably not be a "standard" move but a "Deep Strike move", but it is most definitely "a move", at least.


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 Nehekhare wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
Our unit is not a Reserve because we do not declare it as such in the deployment phase, (which is necessary to have a Reserve)

it's exactly the other way around: "In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, [...] the unit must start the game in Reserve (pg 135)." (BRB 162)

Arrival per deep strike is declared "when placing the unit in reserve" (BRB 162), i.e. when summoning it.

Such are the rules for Deep Strike. There is no other Deep Strike besides it.

I would recommend you read the rules for the Space Marine Storm Raven, and then re-consider the assertion that you can only Deep Strike from Reserves

 Nehekhare wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
Our unit is not a Reserve because we do not declare it as such in the deployment phase, (which is necessary to have a Reserve)

it's exactly the other way around: "In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, [...] the unit must start the game in Reserve (pg 135)." (BRB 162)

Arrival per deep strike is declared "when placing the unit in reserve" (BRB 162), i.e. when summoning it.

And? I already understand that a unit is declared as Deep Striking when it is placed into reserve. I think you're misunderstanding the rule you've quoted.

You never place the Bloodthirster into Reserves, so it's not a reserve.

Also even if the Deep Strike is a move, there's nothing saying it cannot change flight modes. Changing of flight modes is forbidden for an FMC coming from Reserves: "If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserves, it always counts as being in Swooping mode".

The Bloodthirster doesn't arrive from reserves, so is only limited to not being able to move or assault as the Deep Strike rule says.

 Ignatius wrote:
You never place the Bloodthirster into Reserves, so it's not a reserve.

Then you can't use the Deep Strike rules, because they require a model to start the game in Reserve and you have no rule that specifically overrides that requirement.

 Ignatius wrote:

 Nehekhare wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
Our unit is not a Reserve because we do not declare it as such in the deployment phase, (which is necessary to have a Reserve)

it's exactly the other way around: "In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, [...] the unit must start the game in Reserve (pg 135)." (BRB 162)

Arrival per deep strike is declared "when placing the unit in reserve" (BRB 162), i.e. when summoning it.

And? I already understand that a unit is declared as Deep Striking when it is placed into reserve. I think you're misunderstanding the rule you've quoted.

You never place the Bloodthirster into Reserves, so it's not a reserve.

Also even if the Deep Strike is a move, there's nothing saying it cannot change flight modes. Changing of flight modes is forbidden for an FMC coming from Reserves: "If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserves, it always counts as being in Swooping mode".

The Bloodthirster doesn't arrive from reserves, so is only limited to not being able to move or assault as the Deep Strike rule says.

The problem with tha rule, as i highlighted in another thread is that there is no such thing as:

Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserves

A) Flying Monstrous Creature arrives from Deep Strike Reserves.
B) Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserves.

Pick your poison, but i'd go with "B" from the large amount of precedent.

When the power is resolved, the new unit then arrives via Deep Strike,

If a vehicle scatters when arriving via Deep Strike,

Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain.

 adamsouza wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

Perhaps you missed the new rule detailing how a Bloodthirster summoned via the Blood Tithe arrives at the start of the turn before the movement phase, the implications of which for changing flight modes within that turn have been spelled out numerous times above. Or perhaps you're just ignoring it because you don't like it.

Implications are not new rules. Start of phase, psychic phase, movement phase it doesn't matter. Arriving via deepstrike is a Flying MC's movement for that turn and they come in soaring.

If they wanted Flying MCs to charge next turn, Flying MCs would come in gliding.

No, the new rule is that the Bloodthirster arrives before the movement phase. Stop twisting other peoples words. And the existing rules are that any movement associated with Deep Strike happens during the movement phase. As the model is on the table before this happens you can elect to change flight mode at the start of that move.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
You never place the Bloodthirster into Reserves, so it's not a reserve.

Then you can't use the Deep Strike rules, because they require a model to start the game in Reserve and you have no rule that specifically overrides that requirement.

I would be quite curious as to how you follow the rules in "Skies of Fury", Space Marine Codex, StormRaven Gunships?

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

Perhaps you missed the new rule detailing how a Bloodthirster summoned via the Blood Tithe arrives at the start of the turn before the movement phase, the implications of which for changing flight modes within that turn have been spelled out numerous times above. Or perhaps you're just ignoring it because you don't like it.

Implications are not new rules. Start of phase, psychic phase, movement phase it doesn't matter. Arriving via deepstrike is a Flying MC's movement for that turn and they come in soaring.

If they wanted Flying MCs to charge next turn, Flying MCs would come in gliding.

No, the new rule is that the Bloodthirster arrives before the movement phase. Stop twisting other peoples words. And the existing rules are that any movement associated with Deep Strike happens during the movement phase. As the model is on the table before this happens you can elect to change flight mode at the start of that move.

Which, if you take that argument forward, means that all FMCs are able to switch movement modes the turn they arrive. As Reserves arrive prior to the movement phase, etc.

This argument literally ignores the rule that Deep Striking is movement, and you're prohibited from moving further. Since you cannot move further you cannot change flight modes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ignatius wrote:
Also even if the Deep Strike is a move, there's nothing saying it cannot change flight modes. Changing of flight modes is forbidden for an FMC coming from Reserves: "If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserves, it always counts as being in Swooping mode".

The Bloodthirster doesn't arrive from reserves, so is only limited to not being able to move or assault as the Deep Strike rule says.

And when would the Bloodthirster change flight modes?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
You never place the Bloodthirster into Reserves, so it's not a reserve.

Then you can't use the Deep Strike rules, because they require a model to start the game in Reserve and you have no rule that specifically overrides that requirement.

I would be quite curious as to how you follow the rules in "Skies of Fury", Space Marine Codex, StormRaven Gunships?

You and I (and others) have gone over this multiple times before. Please don't derail this thread any further.

rigeld2 wrote:
You and I (and others) have gone over this multiple times before. Please don't derail this thread any further.

No attempt at derailing, but i will answer if the question of "arriving by Deep Strike" forcing a trip to reserves is brought up.

I do not think that being in any form of Reserves is relevant to the current argument as much as the question of "at the start of any of his Turns" being simultaneous with further movement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for an actual "Call" on the matter at hand:

By RaW: You are Deep Striking. The BrB forces Deep Striking FMC to be swooping. In you next movement phase you may elect to Glide, and charge the Turn after that.

By HIWPI: The FMC rule for Deep Striking is assuming you are flying onto the field. Blood Tithe works for a non-FMC Daemon ("summoning"). I do not see why it would be forced to Swoop when being summoned. They might FAQ when pigs fly

"Via" is the means of arrival, "from" is the starting location. the text in the rulebook most often uses the word "via" when referring to deep strike.

the book details that "deep strike" and "deep strike reserves" are the same thing.

there is no new rule that i know of, deep strike always happened before the movement phase.

there is a discrepancy where it talks about deep striking during the movement phase, its around the same spot as where it outlines the movement phase early in the rule book (sorry, don't have the book on me and can't point to specifics. my guess is it's in the 20's pages) perhaps you could draw an argument from that paragraph?

(maybe i'm feeding this argument unnecessarily, but i'm trying to act from a neutral space of curiosity)

 Nehekhare wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:

1. What does the rule tell you to do? Deep Strike.

2. "Deep strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)" (BRB 162)

why do you insist these are different rule?

Holy out of context quote bat man!

Let me fix that for you:
“When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).”


Now I will rephrase that for you.

"When making cookies, you must declare if they contain chocolate chips (sometimes called chocolate chip cookies)."

Your argument that all cookies are chocolate chip cookies is severely flawed. Not all cookies have chocolate chips, and not all chocolate chips are in cookies, but when used together, they have a specific name, chocolate chip cookies.


There are many mechanics in the game that allow a unit to Deep Strike, very few of them specify Reserves (though it is important to note that the ones which are intended to be treated like reserves are clearly labeled as such, which would be totally redundant if you were correct), so are you arguing that Veil of Darkness, Skies of Blood and Grav-chute insertion allow interceptor? Are you arguing that the old necron FAQ was incorrect and that Deathmarks got to declare a new target every turn? For you to argue that Bloodthirsters must swoop means you must argue that GW intentionally misled us with a FAQ, intended for Interceptor to work on units not entering from Reserves, and that GW thinks all cookies are chocolate chip.

slamma wrote:
the book details that "deep strike" and "deep strike reserves" are the same thing.

This:

 minionboy wrote:

 Nehekhare wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:

1. What does the rule tell you to do? Deep Strike.

2. "Deep strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)" (BRB 162)

why do you insist these are different rule?

Holy out of context quote bat man!

Let me fix that for you:
“When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).”


Now I will rephrase that for you.

"When making cookies, you must declare if they contain chocolate chips (sometimes called chocolate chip cookies)."

Your argument that all cookies are chocolate chip cookies is severely flawed. Not all cookies have chocolate chips, and not all chocolate chips are in cookies, but when used together, they have a specific name, chocolate chip cookies.


There are many mechanics in the game that allow a unit to Deep Strike, very few of them specify Reserves (though it is important to note that the ones which are intended to be treated like reserves are clearly labeled as such, which would be totally redundant if you were correct), so are you arguing that Veil of Darkness, Skies of Blood and Grav-chute insertion allow interceptor? Are you arguing that the old necron FAQ was incorrect and that Deathmarks got to declare a new target every turn? For you to argue that Bloodthirsters must swoop means you must argue that GW intentionally misled us with a FAQ, intended for Interceptor to work on units not entering from Reserves, and that GW thinks all cookies are chocolate chip.

"deep strike" and "deep strike reserves" are proven to be two different things.

As such, by current definitions,

 BlackTalos wrote:

The problem with tha rule, as i highlighted in another thread is that there is no such thing as:

Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserves

A) Flying Monstrous Creature arrives from Deep Strike Reserves.
B) Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserves.

Pick your poison, but i'd go with "B" from the large amount of precedent.

I just wanted to add my 2c I couldn't get to sleep so I got rules reading.

"When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike(sometimes Deep Strike reserve)."
I believe this to mean that it is refering to the fact that placing them in Reserve at the beginning of the game and wanting to deep strike them is sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve.

Immediately after this sentence it says
"Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike."
I believe this to be units that you have started with on your army list for units such as Legion of the Damned.

Now lets assume your FMC had to begin the Game in reserve. Before turn 4 that would mean your FMC would potentially take 3 turns to get into combat from earning the Bloodthirster.

Another interesting thing to point out is Blood Tithe happens before Reserves are done and checking whether your Reserves arrive is before the movement phase but coming from reserves counts as moving because you see if any, all or none of your reserves come on, move your reserves onto the board, then you can move every other unit. I believe the transition from to see if your reserves arrive and having your reserves put on the board is the transition between Reserves and Movement phase. But the Blood Tithe is before this. Blood Tithe summoning is not put into reserves and then they appear. I also believe under deep strike where it says. "In the movement phase during which they arrive." Would make things easier if it actually said during which the turn they arrive. Alas it doesn't.

Just my thoughts Im tired it's 3am. Couldn't get to sleep so did some reading on rulings most of it was about amount of Artefacts allowed per HQ. It's all confusing. GW needs more FAQ releases. I'll be coming back to this to see how far it's progressed when i wake up. sorry for a long post

Edit: Another thing I forgot about is when I started reading this before it become about FMC deep striking. Is yes Chaos Sorcerers can be put into units with Mark or Daemons of Khorne, however if he has a Mark he can only join units with Daemon of Khorne. On top of that Daemons of Slaanesh, Tzeentch or Nurgle with the IC special rule may join units with the Mark of Khorne but not Daemons of Khorne. Only 2 units with both are Warp Talons and Possessed so they can't join them.

 Ignatius wrote:

 Nehekhare wrote:
"In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, [...] the unit must start the game in Reserve (pg 135)." (BRB 162)

I already understand that a unit is declared as Deep Striking when it is placed into reserve.

read the exact wording of the rule again: it is rather inversely the unit being placed into reserve when declared to Deep Strike.

 minionboy wrote:

Holy out of context quote bat man!

Let me fix that for you:

No thank you, I prefer the rules as written to paraphrasing.
you will find the full context in my first post: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/641693.page#7713698

 minionboy wrote:
There are many mechanics in the game that allow a unit to Deep Strike, very few of them specify Reserves (though it is important to note that the ones which are intended to be treated like reserves are clearly labeled as such, which would be totally redundant if you were correct),

how do you know which ones are intended to be treated as such? And yes, it is redundant.

 minionboy wrote:
so are you arguing that Veil of Darkness, Skies of Blood and Grav-chute insertion allow interceptor? Are you arguing that the old necron FAQ was incorrect and that Deathmarks got to declare a new target every turn? For you to argue that Bloodthirsters must swoop means you must argue that GW intentionally misled us with a FAQ, intended for Interceptor to work on units not entering from Reserves, and that GW thinks all cookies are chocolate chip.

I am simply quoting the rules, chocolate chip cookies are what happens when you paraphrase. Whatever may have been the issue with interceptor under previous editions of rules may not necessarily apply to the current edition.

btw I am not arguing BTs must swoop, much to the contrary - imo they arrive swooping from reserves but may change flight modes at the start of their deployment move.

Without quoting everything above, you're creating a false dichotomy there BlackTalos.

Deep Strike Reserves is a compound phrase, it is broken down to mean, "being in Reserves and arriving by Deep Strike" as per the rules which define Deep Strike Reserves. When we put that definition into the sentence it makes complete sense, "Flying Monstrous Creature arrives from being in Reserves and arriving by Deep Strike."

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Nehekhare wrote:
"Deep strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)" (BRB 162)

"deep strike" and "deep strike reserves" are proven to be two different things.

I believe it to be quite a logical accomplishment to combine both these statements in one post!


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 minionboy wrote:
"Flying Monstrous Creature arrives from being in Reserves and arriving by Deep Strike."

read your review, great as always!

but I think you're unnecessarily creating a paradox here.

Answer me please: according to your interpretation of the rules, what flight mode does an FMC arriving from Deep Strike use before it is allowed to change flight modes?

if the answer is "none", you created a situation where rules are unclear (e.g. for mishaps by scattering onto other models).

 Nehekhare wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Nehekhare wrote:
"Deep strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)" (BRB 162)

"deep strike" and "deep strike reserves" are proven to be two different things.

I believe it to be quite a logical accomplishment to combine both these statements in one post!

Simply because your quote is missing important parts.
Deep strike = sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve
is not a True statement.

When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent [that it will be arriving by Deep Strike] = sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve
Is the Rules.

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
You never place the Bloodthirster into Reserves, so it's not a reserve.

Then you can't use the Deep Strike rules, because they require a model to start the game in Reserve and you have no rule that specifically overrides that requirement.

I would be quite curious as to how you follow the rules in "Skies of Fury", Space Marine Codex, StormRaven Gunships?

Actually that is where the argument Ignatius put forward leads to. My position is that if you use the rules for Deep Striking, then you use those rules regardless. If you want to claim that you can ignore one part of the rules because you weren't in Reserve, then it just smacks of cherry picking the rules to use another rule that requires you to be in Reserve in the first place,

 minionboy wrote:
Without quoting everything above, you're creating a false dichotomy there BlackTalos.

Deep Strike Reserves is a compound phrase, it is broken down to mean, "being in Reserves and arriving by Deep Strike" as per the rules which define Deep Strike Reserves. When we put that definition into the sentence it makes complete sense, "Flying Monstrous Creature arrives from being in Reserves and arriving by Deep Strike."

"Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via being in Reserves and arriving by Deep Strike."

A) Arriving via being in reserves does not mean anything per the rules.
B) The statement is only true if: all Deep Strike Reserves = being in Reserves and arriving by Deep Strike. Which is demonstrably false.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ghaz wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
You never place the Bloodthirster into Reserves, so it's not a reserve.

Then you can't use the Deep Strike rules, because they require a model to start the game in Reserve and you have no rule that specifically overrides that requirement.

I would be quite curious as to how you follow the rules in "Skies of Fury", Space Marine Codex, StormRaven Gunships?

Actually that is where the argument Ignatius put forward leads to. My position is that if you use the rules for Deep Striking, then you use those rules regardless. If you want to claim that you can ignore one part of the rules because you weren't in Reserve, then it just smacks of cherry picking the rules to use another rule that requires you to be in Reserve in the first place,

Of course, which is why i also disagreed with the argument Ignatius put forward. Sorry i did not follow the train of thought leading to the incorrect conclusion and just disagreed with the single statement.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
I don't get how this conversation has gone on so long. Tyranid, Daemon and CSM players all tolled over the rules for hours trying to figure out how to make assault FMCs as good as they were in 6th. Daemons have been summoning greater daemons since 7th dropped, and the rules haven't changed since then. You arrive in the air, you land next turn, you assault the turn after that. This is why the black mace prince, melee hive tyrants, combat LoC and bloodthirsters are all but gone. The only flying MCs you see now either hop around with shrouded or shoot/summon.

This book has no new rules on how the FMC arrives, if GW wanted it to be able to assault the turn after it came in, or allow FMCs to change flight mode on the turn they arrive from deep strike, it would be more clear in the rules.

Exactly but people really want their Daemonkin codex to be better.

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
You never place the Bloodthirster into Reserves, so it's not a reserve.

Then you can't use the Deep Strike rules, because they require a model to start the game in Reserve and you have no rule that specifically overrides that requirement.

I would be quite curious as to how you follow the rules in "Skies of Fury", Space Marine Codex, StormRaven Gunships?

Actually that is where the argument Ignatius put forward leads to. My position is that if you use the rules for Deep Striking, then you use those rules regardless. If you want to claim that you can ignore one part of the rules because you weren't in Reserve, then it just smacks of cherry picking the rules to use another rule that requires you to be in Reserve in the first place,

Of course, which is why i also disagreed with the argument Ignatius put forward. Sorry i did not follow the train of thought leading to the incorrect conclusion and just disagreed with the single statement.

Hmm. I don't really see how not using parts of rules that are clearly not used is cherry picking, but I've really said all I have to say on the subject. If I didn't convince anyone than that's fine. But I'm still failing to see a majority of the counter argument either through pure genius (not likely) or stubbornness. Either way I'll just have to wait for an FAQ. Maybe if I email GW Customer Services enough they'll get the hint.

 BlackTalos wrote:
The problem with that rule, as i highlighted in another thread is that there is no such thing as:

Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserves

A) Flying Monstrous Creature arrives from Deep Strike Reserves.
B) Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserves.

Pick your poison, but i'd go with "B" from the large amount of precedent.

When the power is resolved, the new unit then arrives via Deep Strike,

If a vehicle scatters when arriving via Deep Strike,

Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain.

You are indeed free to select "A", but that limits the rule. You may be correct though.

 BlackTalos wrote:
The problem with that rule, as i highlighted in another thread is that there is no such thing as:

Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserves

A) Flying Monstrous Creature arrives from Deep Strike Reserves.
B) Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserves.

Pick your poison, but i'd go with "B" from the large amount of precedent.

When the power is resolved, the new unit then arrives via Deep Strike,

If a vehicle scatters when arriving via Deep Strike,

Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain.

Also, I'd go with B too.

But the rules do literally say "Flying Monstrous Creatures arrive via Deep Strike Reserves". So maybe I'm understanding your claim that "there is no such thing" when that's what the rulebook says verbatim.

 Ignatius wrote:
Also, I'd go with B too.

But the rules do literally say "Flying Monstrous Creatures arrive via Deep Strike Reserves". So maybe I'm understanding your claim that "there is no such thing" when that's what the rulebook says verbatim.

Indeed, it is written as quoted in the book. But (to me anyway) that rule is an impossibility.

Just as there is no such rule as "Deep Strike Reserve": (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). If something is "sometimes called", is that really a rule then?
But many Codices refer to an item called "Deep Strike Reserve", so it should be a defined term...

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
Also, I'd go with B too.

But the rules do literally say "Flying Monstrous Creatures arrive via Deep Strike Reserves". So maybe I'm understanding your claim that "there is no such thing" when that's what the rulebook says verbatim.

Indeed, it is written as quoted in the book. But (to me anyway) that rule is an impossibility.

Just as there is no such rule as "Deep Strike Reserve": (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). If something is "sometimes called", is that really a rule then?
But many Codices refer to an item called "Deep Strike Reserve", so it should be a defined term...

Ah okay that makes sense to me. For what it's worth, I agree with you.

 Ignatius wrote:
Hmm. I don't really see how not using parts of rules that are clearly not used is cherry picking, but I've really said all I have to say on the subject. If I didn't convince anyone than that's fine. But I'm still failing to see a majority of the counter argument either through pure genius (not likely) or stubbornness. Either way I'll just have to wait for an FAQ. Maybe if I email GW Customer Services enough they'll get the hint.

 Ignatius wrote:
You have uncovered the only part of my argument that I have no real answer for, as I am looking for a reason that "further" would be in there. Stand by and I'll find something. If not, then I will understand the limitation of my argument and will say it as such.

So... anything? You still think you're right, despite my "uncover[ing] the only part of [your] argument that [you] have no real answer for" and then not addressing that?

Ive got a better question, even if you could move in the movement phase would you still be allowed to change your flight mode? Your allowed to move in the shooting phase via a run (per the deep strike rule).

The rules for flight mode are only described only under "Changing Flight Mode" where it describes that a flight mode is selected until the start of your next turn.

Blood Thirster arrives via (apparently nothing) and gets put into swooping (I'm sorry counts as swooping because some how that also makes people feel like it's a different rule)

The deep strike move happens the start of which was the arrival which specifies you must choose swooping, not sure where the confusion is but hey lets just say that is didn't work that way. The FMC rule states you count as swooping which is only described in that one section where it also clearly states that it can't be changed until the start of your next turn.

So to get it to work that way we have to overlook that the start of the deep strike move is the arrival which is where the FMC rule actually states it makes the choice for you, then overlook the fact that your not allowed to change flight modes once its been set for a turn, then ignore the "Always" in the FMC rule which typically would imply an effect that should last at least until the end of the turn (so that even if you could change it, it would not matter because for all rules purposes it would still count as swooping).

Edit - for grammer

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

Perhaps you missed the new rule detailing how a Bloodthirster summoned via the Blood Tithe arrives at the start of the turn before the movement phase, the implications of which for changing flight modes within that turn have been spelled out numerous times above. Or perhaps you're just ignoring it because you don't like it.

Implications are not new rules. Start of phase, psychic phase, movement phase it doesn't matter. Arriving via deepstrike is a Flying MC's movement for that turn and they come in soaring.

If they wanted Flying MCs to charge next turn, Flying MCs would come in gliding.

No, the new rule is that the Bloodthirster arrives before the movement phase. Stop twisting other peoples words. And the existing rules are that any movement associated with Deep Strike happens during the movement phase. As the model is on the table before this happens you can elect to change flight mode at the start of that move.

Which, if you take that argument forward, means that all FMCs are able to switch movement modes the turn they arrive. As Reserves arrive prior to the movement phase, etc.

Do you have a quote for that because the Deep Strike rules actually say "In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further.." (Emphasis mine)
This clearly demonstrates that normally, Deep Striking units arrive during the Movement Phase. Otherwise it would say something along the lines of "In the Movement phase during the turn on which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further.." You only make the actual roll for Reserves during the start of turn phase.

The Daemonkin Codex however gives the summoned units permission to arrive during the start of your turn phase:
The Blood for the Blood God! rules tell us Blood Tithe points are expended at the start of the turn by picking a reward from the table.
The Fury Unbound reward says "That character must immediately take a Leadership test". (Emphasis mine)
If the test is passed and a unit is summoned the footnote to the table says "a new unit under your control immediately arrives..." (Emphasis mine)

So to reiterate, the Bloodthirster arrives before the movement phase and is not yet considered to have moved - going back to the Deep Strike rules they tell us the unit "count as having moved in the previous Movement phase". So if the model is on the table at the start of the movement phase and hasn't yet moved it can surely elect to change flight modes at the start of its move as per the FMC rules.

All this thread boils down to at this point is this:

Is deep strike a move?


If it is, then FMC cannot change flight modes because they have already started their move by deep striking, and they are locked into swooping because they have to declare their mode before starting their move, and deep strike necessitates swooping to be utilized for that kind of deployment.

If it isn't, then the FMC hasn't started its move yet, and is free to change flight modes. Note that this would have much wider implications than just the Daemonkin Codex.

If, as some think, deep strike isn't a move, then why do the deep strike rules state that a unit which deep strikes cannot move any FURTHER in the movement phase? If anyone can answer that, I am open to the possibility of changing flight modes being RAW, but as it stands I just don't see it

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Do you have a quote for that because the Deep Strike rules actually say "In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further.." (Emphasis mine)
This clearly demonstrates that normally, Deep Striking units arrive during the Movement Phase. Otherwise it would say something along the lines of "In the Movement phase during the turn on which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further.." You only make the actual roll for Reserves during the start of turn phase.

Sigh. Despite the fact that this hasn't changed in a long time, people still fail to understand how Reserves work.

At the start of your second turn, you must roll a D6 for each unit in your army that is being held in Reserve – these are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn.

We know the unit arrives this turn.

When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below.

When they arrive, deploy them. Not in a later phase, but when they arrive.

This means that when the roll is successful, the unit moves on. Not later in the turn in a different phase.

So to reiterate, the Bloodthirster arrives before the movement phase and is not yet considered to have moved - going back to the Deep Strike rules they tell us the unit "count as having moved in the previous Movement phase". So if the model is on the table at the start of the movement phase and hasn't yet moved it can surely elect to change flight modes at the start of its move as per the FMC rules.

The Deep Strike rules state that you can move no further. This means that Deep Striking is movement. As I showed earlier in the thread.
Please cite permission to move a unit twice.

Is changing flight modes listed as a form of movement/requiring you to have not yet moved or merely done during the movement phase?