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Captyn_Bob wrote:
P162, 'Arriving by Deep Strike' fifth paragraph.

"In the movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one"

So pretty clear Deep Striking units arrive in the movement phase, and cannot move any further.

Please re-read the Reserve rules - it's clear you haven't. Reserves do not arrive in the movement phase.

Or you can read the thread where I've proven that multiple times.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

No, the rulebook says they arrive in the movement phase. As I've cited several times, but which you still continue to ignore.

A restriction on actions you may take in the move phase you arrive does not mean you arrive in the movement phase. Particularly when all the rules tell you that you arrive at the start of the turn. Please mark all your posts HYWPI if you're arguing that DS reserves do not arrive at the start of the turn. Until you admit that the rules are correct when they tell you that you arrive at the start of the turn we can not engage in discussion as you are refusing to discuss RaW.

So which is it? Do DS reserves arrive at the start of the turn or is the rulebook wrong?

I'm arguing that because the rules say "In the movement phase in which they arrive". There is no other way to interpret that statement other than the unit is arriving in the movement phase. Please mark all your posts as HIWPI.

I've underlined the important part of his post.

And again, you're addressing a "Reserves" argument but refusing to answer questions very relevant to that argument. It's obvious you have the time to, you just don't want to answer them for some reason.
Please do so.

Also, telling people to mark their posts "HIWPI" is rude.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Open to literally anyone who is convinced units arriving from Reserves do so in the movement phase:

Do Reserves arrive on turn 4 at the same point in the turn that they do on turns 2 and 3? If you say no, be prepared to back up your answer with rules. I'd love an answer to this question.
Do Ongoing Reserves arrive at the same point in the turn as regular Reserves? If you say no, be prepared to back up your answer with rules. I'd love an answer to this question.
Do units arrive from Outflank arrive during the movement phase or the start of turn?

rigeld2 wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
P162, 'Arriving by Deep Strike' fifth paragraph.

"In the movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one"

So pretty clear Deep Striking units arrive in the movement phase, and cannot move any further.

Please re-read the Reserve rules - it's clear you haven't. Reserves do not arrive in the movement phase.

Or you can read the thread where I've proven that multiple times.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

No, the rulebook says they arrive in the movement phase. As I've cited several times, but which you still continue to ignore.

A restriction on actions you may take in the move phase you arrive does not mean you arrive in the movement phase. Particularly when all the rules tell you that you arrive at the start of the turn. Please mark all your posts HYWPI if you're arguing that DS reserves do not arrive at the start of the turn. Until you admit that the rules are correct when they tell you that you arrive at the start of the turn we can not engage in discussion as you are refusing to discuss RaW.

So which is it? Do DS reserves arrive at the start of the turn or is the rulebook wrong?

I'm arguing that because the rules say "In the movement phase in which they arrive". There is no other way to interpret that statement other than the unit is arriving in the movement phase. Please mark all your posts as HIWPI.

I've underlined the important part of his post.

And again, you're addressing a "Reserves" argument but refusing to answer questions very relevant to that argument. It's obvious you have the time to, you just don't want to answer them for some reason.
Please do so.

Also, telling people to mark their posts "HIWPI" is rude.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Open to literally anyone who is convinced units arriving from Reserves do so in the movement phase:

Do Reserves arrive on turn 4 at the same point in the turn that they do on turns 2 and 3? If you say no, be prepared to back up your answer with rules. I'd love an answer to this question.
Do Ongoing Reserves arrive at the same point in the turn as regular Reserves? If you say no, be prepared to back up your answer with rules. I'd love an answer to this question.
Do units arrive from Outflank arrive during the movement phase or the start of turn?

So you still don't have any valid arguments of your own? Ok.
With regard to the underlined, that statement sounds like you both now agree that they do arrive in the movement phase. Otherwise it is nonsensical. In fact it makes no sense whichever way you read it.

'm arguing that because the rules say "In the movement phase in which they arrive". There is no other way to interpret that statement other than the unit is arriving in the movement phase. Please mark all your posts as HIWPI.

Incorrect. You need to read the whole sentence to get the meaning. It is a restriction on an action during "the movement phase in which they arrive". That is not a rule that is discussing how or when DS units arrive. So please mark all future posts clearly as HYWPI as you are breaking forum rules.

Once you agree that we are talking RaW (which is the same as agreeing all units that DS from reserve arrive at the start of the turn) only then can we have meaningful discussion.

So do you wish to discuss actual RaW or are you going to continue dressing up your HYWPI as RaW breaking forum rules?

 FlingitNow wrote:
It is a restriction on an action during "the movement phase in which they arrive". That is not a rule that is discussing how or when DS units arrive. So please mark all future posts clearly as HYWPI as you are breaking forum rules.

Well that handily feeds into my interpretation.

So putting the reserves rules aside, please, even tho are very interesting I agree, why do you think they apply to units arriving via the blood tithe? Is there any rule relating to the blood tithe that makes you think they need to even open the page on reserves?

 FlingitNow wrote:

'm arguing that because the rules say "In the movement phase in which they arrive". There is no other way to interpret that statement other than the unit is arriving in the movement phase. Please mark all your posts as HIWPI.

Incorrect. You need to read the whole sentence to get the meaning. It is a restriction on an action during "the movement phase in which they arrive". That is not a rule that is discussing how or when DS units arrive. So please mark all future posts clearly as HYWPI as you are breaking forum rules.

Once you agree that we are talking RaW (which is the same as agreeing all units that DS from reserve arrive at the start of the turn) only then can we have meaningful discussion.

So do you wish to discuss actual RaW or are you going to continue dressing up your HYWPI as RaW breaking forum rules?

Yes, it is a restriction on an action during the movement phase in which they arrive. So after they arrive in the movement phase there is then a restriction on them moving. Are you going to continue dressing up rules to what you think they indended, rather than just abide by the RAW? Also, apparently telling people their posts are HYWPI is rude, please desist.

So.

We're stuck on one side reading:
" In the movement phase during which [they arrive] " - Arriving (at any time) has the following restriction "during the movement phase"

And the other convinced:
" [In the movement phase] during which they arrive " - This only ever happens "In the movement phase".

Well, i'd go for the first, while other read the second. Will anyone have RaW support for either?
Or is it maybe down to interpretation of the same rule, so neither side will be "100% correct, mark yours as HYWPI"?

Could we accept both exist and might be correct?
I don't think it solves the Flight mode issue though...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Captyn_Bob wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
It is a restriction on an action during "the movement phase in which they arrive". That is not a rule that is discussing how or when DS units arrive. So please mark all future posts clearly as HYWPI as you are breaking forum rules.

Well that handily feeds into my interpretation.

So putting the reserves rules aside, please, even tho are very interesting I agree, why do you think they apply to units arriving via the blood tithe? Is there any rule relating to the blood tithe that makes you think they need to even open the page on reserves?

Yeah, there was a massive discussion about that actually, which is why i was dodging that specific issue:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/631412.page

 BlackTalos wrote:
So.

We're stuck on one side reading:
" In the movement phase during which [they arrive] " - Arriving (at any time) has the following restriction "during the movement phase"

And the other convinced:
" [In the movement phase] during which they arrive " - This only ever happens "In the movement phase".

Well, i'd go for the first, while other read the second. Will anyone have RaW support for either?

Since it's been demonstrated that you arrive from Reserve at the start of turn, the second reading means that Deep Striking Terminators can move normally in their movement phase.
And FMCs can arrive Swooping but choose to Glide.

Could we accept both exist and might be correct?

Since one side has explained, in depth, why the first reading is correct and the other side has just said "NUH UH BLOOD TITHE UNIQUE" even after it's been demonstrated that's an incorrect statement... no. No I cannot accept that both readings are correct.

I don't think it solves the Flight mode issue though...

Why not? They arrive Swooping - no one is disputing that.
People are saying that "Well, he arrived before the movement phase so he totes gets a move and can switch then, duh"

So putting the reserves rules aside, please, even tho are very interesting I agree, why do you think they apply to units arriving via the blood tithe? Is there any rule relating to the blood tithe that makes you think they need to even open the page on reserves?

Yeah, there was a massive discussion about that actually, which is why i was dodging that specific issue:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/631412.page

I'm not even attempting to bring that up. It's not relevant to me.
The reason I'm discussing the Reserve rules is that people have asserted that Blood Tithe'd Bloodthirsters are unique in that they arrive at the Start of Turn, so they'd be the only ones to "benefit" from this.
I'm using the Reserve rules to demonstrate that, in fact, the BTBT (I feel like that robot from Buck Rogers) is not unique and that all Deep Striking units arrive at the Start of Turn, so their argument would apply to ALL units that Deep Strike.

Well, as fun as this has been to watch, people need to take a breather and look at it objectively.

The arguments we have so far are
"during the movement phase they arrive, they may move no further"
saying that if they don't arrive during the movement phase , they don't have the restriction.

Now Flingit is saying that, using the rules this way, ongoing reserves may move twice when entering play, and deep strikers on T4 may arrive, then move. Provided they arrive on T4.

This is where the issue that you 2 are both missing is.

-We have evidence that on T4, and in ongoing reserves, they arrive at the start of the turn.
Are these moments the exception or the rule for arriving.

If they are the exception, then there is some serious issue with how people have been playing. If they are the rule, then we have a null rule.

So i ask to Tonberry, just what your opinion is on these, look at them in a vacuum for the moment, Are they the exception or the rule?

Answering this might help the discussion here, as both sides appear to be discussing 2 seperate arguments, and wondering why they're not making progress with each other.

harkequin wrote:
Well, as fun as this has been to watch, people need to take a breather and look at it objectively.

The arguments we have so far are
"during the movement phase they arrive, they may move no further"
saying that if they don't arrive during the movement phase , they don't have the restriction.

Now Flingit is saying that, using the rules this way, ongoing reserves may move twice when entering play, and deep strikers on T4 may arrive, then move. Provided they arrive on T4.

This is where the issue that you 2 are both missing is.

-We have evidence that on T4, and in ongoing reserves, they arrive at the start of the turn.
Are these moments the exception or the rule for arriving.

If they are the exception, then there is some serious issue with how people have been playing. If they are the rule, then we have a null rule.

So i ask to Tonberry, just what your opinion is on these, look at them in a vacuum for the moment, Are they the exception or the rule?

Answering this might help the discussion here, as both sides appear to be discussing 2 seperate arguments, and wondering why they're not making progress with each other.

I've asked him literally that exact question, and he called it "irrelevant" and refused to answer it. Good luck!

rigeld2 wrote:

Yeah, there was a massive discussion about that actually, which is why i was dodging that specific issue:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/631412.page

I'm not even attempting to bring that up. It's not relevant to me.
The reason I'm discussing the Reserve rules is that people have asserted that Blood Tithe'd Bloodthirsters are unique in that they arrive at the Start of Turn, so they'd be the only ones to "benefit" from this.
I'm using the Reserve rules to demonstrate that, in fact, the BTBT (I feel like that robot from Buck Rogers) is not unique and that all Deep Striking units arrive at the Start of Turn, so their argument would apply to ALL units that Deep Strike.

But..... You just did:

rigeld2 wrote:
Since it's been demonstrated that you arrive from Reserve at the start of turn, the second reading means that Deep Striking Terminators can move normally in their movement phase.
And FMCs can arrive Swooping but choose to Glide.

So, skipping the part about how "all Deep Striking units arrive at the Start of Turn" is quite possibly incorrect...

rigeld2 wrote:

Could we accept both exist and might be correct?

Since one side has explained, in depth, why the first reading is correct and the other side has just said "NUH UH BLOOD TITHE UNIQUE" even after it's been demonstrated that's an incorrect statement... no. No I cannot accept that both readings are correct.

I don't think it solves the Flight mode issue though...

Why not? They arrive Swooping - no one is disputing that.
People are saying that "Well, he arrived before the movement phase so he totes gets a move and can switch then, duh"

The thing is, both sides are reading that same RaW i quoted, so there is no other "in-depth RaW support"
IF you read " [In the movement phase] during which they arrive " - This only ever happens "In the movement phase".
Then the position of movement being denied is invalid (and IF the BTBT can move, he can choose flight mode) as support stems only from the self-same rule.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

I don't think it solves the Flight mode issue though...

Why not? They arrive Swooping - no one is disputing that.
People are saying that "Well, he arrived before the movement phase so he totes gets a move and can switch then, duh"

Going to have to have an in-depth look at Deep Striking rules for that one, will get back to this....

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Yeah, there was a massive discussion about that actually, which is why i was dodging that specific issue:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/631412.page

I'm not even attempting to bring that up. It's not relevant to me.
The reason I'm discussing the Reserve rules is that people have asserted that Blood Tithe'd Bloodthirsters are unique in that they arrive at the Start of Turn, so they'd be the only ones to "benefit" from this.
I'm using the Reserve rules to demonstrate that, in fact, the BTBT (I feel like that robot from Buck Rogers) is not unique and that all Deep Striking units arrive at the Start of Turn, so their argument would apply to ALL units that Deep Strike.

But..... You just did:

rigeld2 wrote:
Since it's been demonstrated that you arrive from Reserve at the start of turn, the second reading means that Deep Striking Terminators can move normally in their movement phase.
And FMCs can arrive Swooping but choose to Glide.

No, I didn't. I'm not asserting the BTBT is arriving from Reserve. I haven't ever said that. Which means I'm not bringing up the argument you linked to.

So, skipping the part about how "all Deep Striking units arrive at the Start of Turn" is quite possibly incorrect...

Fine - Excepting things that happen post-movement phase. Doesn't change my overall point.

rigeld2 wrote:

Could we accept both exist and might be correct?

Since one side has explained, in depth, why the first reading is correct and the other side has just said "NUH UH BLOOD TITHE UNIQUE" even after it's been demonstrated that's an incorrect statement... no. No I cannot accept that both readings are correct.

I don't think it solves the Flight mode issue though...

Why not? They arrive Swooping - no one is disputing that.
People are saying that "Well, he arrived before the movement phase so he totes gets a move and can switch then, duh"

The thing is, both sides are reading that same RaW i quoted, so there is no other "in-depth RaW support"

Except there is. I've quoted it. I've shown that, for reading #2 to be true units that Deep Strike from Reserves get to move in the movement phase, or Outflanking units get to move twice, or units coming on from the board edge get to move twice.

IF you read " [In the movement phase] during which they arrive " - This only ever happens "In the movement phase".
Then the position of movement being denied is invalid (and IF the BTBT can move, he can choose flight mode) as support stems only from the self-same rule.

Correct - if you read the rules incorrectly you can do incorrect things.

I can tell you that my Carnifex has 10 wounds all I want, but that doesn't change the rules.

Honestly ,

For - "We have evidence that on T4, and in ongoing reserves, they arrive at the start of the turn.
Are these moments the exception or the rule for arriving"
I think it's this section that's poorly worded, and the deep strike rules have the right of it. But either way you look at it, some of the rules as written is wrong. Which is why it would be nice to divorce it from the blood tithe , which has nothing to do with reserves.

Sorry I forgot to add "NUH UH BLOOD TITHE UNIQUE" because everyone who disagrees with you must be an idiot? :-p

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Honestly ,

For - "We have evidence that on T4, and in ongoing reserves, they arrive at the start of the turn.
Are these moments the exception or the rule for arriving"
I think it's this section that's poorly worded, and the deep strike rules have the right of it. But either way you look at it, some of the rules as written is wrong. Which is why it would be nice to divorce it from the blood tithe , which has nothing to do with reserves.

So you're missing the entire point of bringing it up which is that...

Sorry I forgot to add "NUH UH BLOOD TITHE UNIQUE" because everyone who disagrees with you must be an idiot? :-p

A) I never called you or anyone else an idiot.
B) That is literally the entirety of the argument I've seen - that the BTBT is unique and arrives in the Start of Turn and therefore gets a movement phase. I'm showing evidence that this isn't true. It's absolutely relevant to your case.

Pretty sure the point of bringing up the ongoing reserves and turn 4 issues were to show there is an existing example that would work the way the blood tithe has been said to work.

what can an FMC do when flying back onto the table from ongoing reserves? (not being facetious)

 IF you read " [In the movement phase] during which they arrive " - This only ever happens "In the movement phase". 
Then the position of movement being denied is invalid (and IF the BTBT can move, he can choose flight mode) as support stems only from the self-same rule. 

It also makes the rule irrelevant at all times. If you're reading makes a rule entirely non-functional then you are on shakey ground.

Slamma,

what can an FMC do when flying back onto the table from ongoing reserves? (not being facetious)

It could move 48" before firing its weapons, +24" range is a huge deal.
But it's also an issue for other ongoing reserves. Eg. A squad of infantry moving up 12" before running, double movement creates a lot of issues for ranged weapons,

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Yeah, there was a massive discussion about that actually, which is why i was dodging that specific issue:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/631412.page

I'm not even attempting to bring that up. It's not relevant to me.
The reason I'm discussing the Reserve rules is that people have asserted that Blood Tithe'd Bloodthirsters are unique in that they arrive at the Start of Turn, so they'd be the only ones to "benefit" from this.
I'm using the Reserve rules to demonstrate that, in fact, the BTBT (I feel like that robot from Buck Rogers) is not unique and that all Deep Striking units arrive at the Start of Turn, so their argument would apply to ALL units that Deep Strike.

But..... You just did:

rigeld2 wrote:
Since it's been demonstrated that you arrive from Reserve at the start of turn, the second reading means that Deep Striking Terminators can move normally in their movement phase.
And FMCs can arrive Swooping but choose to Glide.

No, I didn't. I'm not asserting the BTBT is arriving from Reserve. I haven't ever said that. Which means I'm not bringing up the argument you linked to.

So, skipping the part about how "all Deep Striking units arrive at the Start of Turn" is quite possibly incorrect...

Fine - Excepting things that happen post-movement phase. Doesn't change my overall point.

rigeld2 wrote:

Could we accept both exist and might be correct?

Since one side has explained, in depth, why the first reading is correct and the other side has just said "NUH UH BLOOD TITHE UNIQUE" even after it's been demonstrated that's an incorrect statement... no. No I cannot accept that both readings are correct.

I don't think it solves the Flight mode issue though...

Why not? They arrive Swooping - no one is disputing that.
People are saying that "Well, he arrived before the movement phase so he totes gets a move and can switch then, duh"

The thing is, both sides are reading that same RaW i quoted, so there is no other "in-depth RaW support"

Except there is. I've quoted it. I've shown that, for reading #2 to be true units that Deep Strike from Reserves get to move in the movement phase, or Outflanking units get to move twice, or units coming on from the board edge get to move twice.

IF you read " [In the movement phase] during which they arrive " - This only ever happens "In the movement phase".
Then the position of movement being denied is invalid (and IF the BTBT can move, he can choose flight mode) as support stems only from the self-same rule.

Correct - if you read the rules incorrectly you can do incorrect things.

I can tell you that my Carnifex has 10 wounds all I want, but that doesn't change the rules.

Okay, i've had a thorough read-through and i get your argument. I also agree and it was my original position until i got convinced that Blood Tithe happening before Reserves happen (not if he comes from it) created a new situation, but you are indeed correct: Blood tithe is simultaneous to reserves (and "normal" Deep Striking) and reading allowances for 1 would create the same for the other, thus breaking Rules.

For the reading #2 however, if the reading can be done that way (i disagree), it is restrictive to Deep Striking units (as the Rule is within Deep Strike) and i could understand the reasoning: "Deep Striking Units" can only arrive during the movement phase (is how i understand reading #2 is done). This does then create a "Uniqueness" for any Deep Striking outside of the Movement Phase (Currently only the BT **might** exists here).

I'd disagree, with further support, but i cannot either flatly deny the interpretation as incorrect.
So i'd stand by my "2 Versions, with no agreement in sight" post of earlier.

slamma wrote:
Pretty sure the point of bringing up the ongoing reserves and turn 4 issues were to show there is an existing example that would work the way the blood tithe has been said to work.

what can an FMC do when flying back onto the table from ongoing reserves? (not being facetious)

It can only swoop.

Whilst in Reserve, the unit cannot change flight mode (it’s too busy trying to get back to the battlefield).

And can only go into Ongoing Reserves in Swooping mode.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlackTalos wrote:
For the reading #2 however, if the reading can be done that way (i disagree), it is restrictive to Deep Striking units (as the Rule is within Deep Strike) and i could understand the reasoning: "Deep Striking Units" can only arrive during the movement phase (is how i understand reading #2 is done). This does then create a "Uniqueness" for any Deep Striking outside of the Movement Phase (Currently only the BT **might** exists here).

So for reading #2, you're saying that arriving from Deep Strike Reserves can only happen in the movement phase, despite the evidence that Reserves arrive before the Movement phase?
And that breaks no rules whatsoever?

edit: I know you said you disagree with #2, but if you're going to propose it's a valid reading of the rules you have to defend it.

rigeld2 wrote:

slamma wrote:
Pretty sure the point of bringing up the ongoing reserves and turn 4 issues were to show there is an existing example that would work the way the blood tithe has been said to work.

what can an FMC do when flying back onto the table from ongoing reserves? (not being facetious)

It can only swoop.

Whilst in Reserve, the unit cannot change flight mode (it’s too busy trying to get back to the battlefield).

And can only go into Ongoing Reserves in Swooping mode.

i might be off topic... but why would it be stuck swooping if it can move an extra 24"?

but on topic,
it's a unit making a move onto the board from reserves "automatically" at the beginning of the turn.
-or-
is this just a whole different thing because it isn't deep striking?

slamma wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

slamma wrote:
Pretty sure the point of bringing up the ongoing reserves and turn 4 issues were to show there is an existing example that would work the way the blood tithe has been said to work.

what can an FMC do when flying back onto the table from ongoing reserves? (not being facetious)

It can only swoop.

Whilst in Reserve, the unit cannot change flight mode (it’s too busy trying to get back to the battlefield).

And can only go into Ongoing Reserves in Swooping mode.

i might be off topic... but why would it be stuck swooping if it can move an extra 24"?

By the rules, it can't. It moves on from Ongoing Reserves at the Start of Turn and moves 24".
Those arguing that the BTBT is unique seem to assume it can, and would then be able to move 24" on, switch to Gliding and then move another 12".

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
For the reading #2 however, if the reading can be done that way (i disagree), it is restrictive to Deep Striking units (as the Rule is within Deep Strike) and i could understand the reasoning: "Deep Striking Units" can only arrive during the movement phase (is how i understand reading #2 is done). This does then create a "Uniqueness" for any Deep Striking outside of the Movement Phase (Currently only the BT **might** exists here).

So for reading #2, you're saying that arriving from Deep Strike Reserves can only happen in the movement phase, despite the evidence that Reserves arrive before the Movement phase?
And that breaks no rules whatsoever?

edit: I know you said you disagree with #2, but if you're going to propose it's a valid reading of the rules you have to defend it.

Of course, which is what i'm doing, partially.
My view on the "correctness" of #2: We are in the setting here where the RaW "In the movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further," is a direct inference that Deep Striking units arrive during the movement phase.
(In the movement phase during which they arrive. Who arrives? Deep Striking units. When are they arriving? "In the movement phase during which")

Most of the other DS options (GoI, Stormraven, etc) are during the movement phase and have specific wording to disallow "other" movement.
All of the "from reserves Deep Striking" or "normal DS", as per the quote above, MUST be doing so in the movement phase (that's what the rule is saying, right?).

Then we have the BTBT. He *must* arrive at the start of the Turn (outside of the movement phase), at the same time as outflanking units or even "all the other reserves".
Why are the "normal" DS units not in this "before movement phase" group? because we are interpreting version #2.

What other rules are broken? (you might need to re-iterate previous points/quotes)

 BlackTalos wrote:
My view on the "correctness" of #2: We are in the setting here where the RaW "In the movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further," is a direct inference that Deep Striking units arrive during the movement phase.
(In the movement phase during which they arrive. Who arrives? Deep Striking units. When are they arriving? "In the movement phase during which")

Except, as I've shown, this is incorrect. Units that Deep Strike from Reserves do not arrive during the Movement phase. It's really that simple to disprove #2.

What other rules are broken? (you might need to re-iterate previous points/quotes)

Sigh.

At the start of your second turn, you must roll a D6 for each unit...

Start of turn.

If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn.

Unit arrives. What does that mean?

When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below.

My emphasis. When X happens, do Y. Not "When X happens, in the Movement phase do Y."
You roll to arrive at the start of turn. When they arrive, move them. Not "when you feel like it" or "when it's convenient" or "in the Movement phase".
So for #2 to be a valid reading, the Reserve rules are broken.

edit:
And just so people don't say "But Deep Strike is special and specifies Movement phase!" I'll add this:

Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:

Roll as specified in Reserves - meaning at the start of turn, not the movement phase.

but why would it be stuck swooping if it can move an extra 24"?

Sorry, I should have been clearer, I thought you were asking how ongoing reserves were relevant, eg. Why does it matter if ongoing reserves happens at the start?

Legally, coming on from ongoing reserves , it may not move any further, It is the way, it has been, and is played.

Using the argument that Since it arrived during the start of the turn, it may then move normally, in it's movement phase...

This would be a big deal for a lot of players since, Eg. Night scythes, 36"move +24" gun, = 60"threat range, meaning that hammer and anvil deployment(?) the opponent would be safe in the back 12" of his field. If you follow the other arguement, then he has nowhere to hide, because i can double move.

It's just highlighting how people trying to use semantics to suit themselves, will in fact break the game in other places, allowing things like this to happen.

OK fine lets talk reserves.

The fact that you move your reserves first, then move the other units, for me says its happening at the start of the movement phase. You roll to see if reserves arrive at the start of the turn.

The only text in the rulebook that contradicts this interpretation, is the Ongoing Reserves section, which says "re-enter play at the start of the following turn" but re-enter play is not the same as move on, so this is hardly concrete.


The line on p135 "automatically arrives at the start of the fourth turn", is saying that the Reserve Roll is automatically passed. It is not saying you move on at the start of turn before the movement phase. That is an incorrect reading of the rule.


This interpretation of the rules makes everything work smoothly, with no scope for double movement or any other nonsense.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
OK fine lets talk reserves.

The fact that you move your reserves first, then move the other units, for me says its happening at the start of the movement phase. You roll to see if reserves arrive at the start of the turn.

The only text in the rulebook that contradicts this interpretation, is the Ongoing Reserves section, which says "re-enter play at the start of the following turn" but re-enter play is not the same as move on, so this is hardly concrete.


The line on p135 "automatically arrives at the start of the fourth turn", is saying that the Reserve Roll is automatically passed. It is not saying you move on at the start of turn before the movement phase. That is an incorrect reading of the rule.


This interpretation of the rules makes everything work smoothly, with no scope for double movement or any other nonsense.

And yet it ignores that Reserves are deployed when they arrive - not later as you've claimed.

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
My view on the "correctness" of #2: We are in the setting here where the RaW "In the movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further," is a direct inference that Deep Striking units arrive during the movement phase.
(In the movement phase during which they arrive. Who arrives? Deep Striking units. When are they arriving? "In the movement phase during which")

Except, as I've shown, this is incorrect. Units that Deep Strike from Reserves do not arrive during the Movement phase. It's really that simple to disprove #2.

What other rules are broken? (you might need to re-iterate previous points/quotes)

Sigh.

At the start of your second turn, you must roll a D6 for each unit...

Start of turn.

If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn.

Unit arrives. What does that mean?

When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below.

My emphasis. When X happens, do Y. Not "When X happens, in the Movement phase do Y."
You roll to arrive at the start of turn. When they arrive, move them. Not "when you feel like it" or "when it's convenient" or "in the Movement phase".
So for #2 to be a valid reading, the Reserve rules are broken.

edit:
And just so people don't say "But Deep Strike is special and specifies Movement phase!" I'll add this:

Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:

Roll as specified in Reserves - meaning at the start of turn, not the movement phase.

Of course, i agree to the above, "But Deep Strike is special and specifies Movement phase!"

Explaining: you roll as specified, but "then deploy them as follows" would replace "When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below." would it not?

For Version #1, of course it's all simultaneous with Reserves, but we're in Version #2, which has RaW forcing the arrival of Deep Striking Units during the movement phase. So the RaW:

At the start of your second turn, you must roll a D6 for each unit...

Start of turn, we roll for arrival.

If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn.

Unit arrives, i'd emphasise: "arrives this turn" (during the mvt phase could be allowed)

When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below.

This is how reserves arrive, but Deep Striking Units have their own method of arrival instead:

and then deploy them as follows:

There is no restriction here on arriving "When Reserves arrive", you're arriving "When Deep Striking units arrive:

In the Movement phase during which they arrive

You roll to arrive at the start of turn. When they arrive (In the Movement phase during which they arrive), place one model from the unit anywhere on the table.

I'd say playing Devil's advocate here though, so i'll put my "real" position:
Arriving by Deep Strike contains instructions for arrival (during Reserves), and then three points:

In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from (...).
In that turn’s Shooting phase, these units can fire (or Run, Turbo-boost or move Flat Out) as normal, and count (...)
In that turn’s Assault phase, however, these units cannot charge. This also applies to units that have disembarked from Transports that arrived by Deep Strike that turn.

Clearly, those rules are relevant to those Phases only (and would not apply for the previous paragraph...)

The line on p135 "automatically arrives at the start of the fourth turn", is saying that the Reserve Roll is automatically passed. It is not saying you move on at the start of turn before the movement phase. That is an incorrect reading of the rule.

But it doesn't say, automatically passes it's reserves roll, It says it automatically arrives at the start of the turn. That means, that it arrives at the start of the turn, not in the movement phase.

The start of the turn being the beggining of the movement phase resolves all these issues.

 adamsouza wrote:
The start of the turn being the beggining of the movement phase resolves all these issues.

Except it's not. Explicitly so as a matter of fact.

rigeld2 wrote:


And yet it ignores that Reserves are deployed when they arrive - not later as you've claimed.

You roll to see if they arrive at the start of turn. Then move them at the start of the movement phase. Sadly this isn't stated clearly in the reserves section (but is crystal clear in the deep strike section), but the fact that moving on happens in the movement phase doesn't require much of a logical leap.

Are people really arguing that you can arrive by reserves and then move again? That's nonsense guys.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

harkequin wrote:

The line on p135 "automatically arrives at the start of the fourth turn", is saying that the Reserve Roll is automatically passed. It is not saying you move on at the start of turn before the movement phase. That is an incorrect reading of the rule.

But it doesn't say, automatically passes it's reserves roll, It says it automatically arrives at the start of the turn. That means, that it arrives at the start of the turn, not in the movement phase.

you're equating 'arrives' with 'moves onto the board' which is an assumption. 'arrives' can equally mean 'passes its Reserve Role', which is the roll to see if it arrives.