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Rigeld - we know the unit arrives this turn. That does not mean immediately. So this is still a duration we have to define.

When reserves arrives tells us what to do when they arrive, which we know is this turn - we know nothing more specific than this.

Except do we? We know they move on, and nothing States, in the unites above, that this is outside of the. Movement phase.

 BlackTalos wrote:
Explaining: you roll as specified, but "then deploy them as follows" would replace "When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below." would it not?

No. It would replace ", moving it onto the table as described below", not "When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it..."

If you replace the entire sentence you have no directive on what to do when Reserves arrive. So, using reading #2 in this manner, you have a unit that has arrived from Reserves but no directive on what that means. That's the consequence to replacing entire sentences instead of just the conflicting part.


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nosferatu1001 wrote:
Rigeld - we know the unit arrives this turn. That does not mean immediately. So this is still a duration we have to define.

When reserves arrives tells us what to do when they arrive, which we know is this turn - we know nothing more specific than this.

Except do we? We know they move on, and nothing States, in the unites above, that this is outside of the. Movement phase.

This is false.

If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn.

What does "arrives this turn" mean in the rules?

When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below.

Oh, that's what it means. When they arrive (which is when you've passed the roll) you deploy the unit.
You have no directive nor permission to delay the arrival to another phase.
You have evidence that units arriving from Reserve do so during the Start of Turn (Ongoing Reserves, Turn 4+).

Please show any evidence that units move on from Reserves in the movement phase. None has been offered so far, other than "That's how it works."

p162 "In the Movement phase during which they arrive, ... "

you're equating 'arrives' with 'moves onto the board' which is an assumption. 'arrives' can equally mean 'passes its Reserve Role', which is the roll to see if it arrives.

I'm sorry, but this is incorrect, the crux of the argument earlier was that the roll takes place at the start but the reserves arrive in the movement phase.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either arriving is when they are placed on the board, or when they pass their roll. Pick one.

In one case, they always arrive at the start, which is how everyone does it.
In the other sccenario, this only happens at T4, and ongoing reserves, which are apparently, (according to this whole kerfuffle) exceptions to turns, 2 & 3.

Now quote a rule that says they do not.
"When reserves arrive" isn't stating what phase they are arriving in.

Wow, talk about getting everyone arguing and confused......

I'm actually second-guessing my position again....., especially with this now: "Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move."

The underlined is creating a timing break where the movement phase could start?
Going to need to think about this some more before a next post......

harkequin wrote:

you're equating 'arrives' with 'moves onto the board' which is an assumption. 'arrives' can equally mean 'passes its Reserve Role', which is the roll to see if it arrives.

I'm sorry, but this is incorrect, the crux of the argument earlier was that the roll takes place at the start but the reserves arrive in the movement phase.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either arriving is when they are placed on the board, or when they pass their roll. Pick one.

In one case, they always arrive at the start, which is how everyone does it.
In the other sccenario, this only happens at T4, and ongoing reserves, which are apparently, (according to this whole kerfuffle) exceptions to turns, 2 & 3.

Sorry my language was terrible there. Arrives, will mean deploy onto the board, but " arrives automatically" means that you do not make a Reserve Roll on T4- so it 'arrives automatically'.

Sorry my language was terrible there. Arrives, will mean deploy onto the board, but " arrives automatically" means that you do not make a Reserve Roll on T4- so it 'arrives automatically'.

No bother man,

The one thing you still run into is that it says " Arrives automatically at the start of the turn." . So, It Arrives (what it does) automatically(how it does it) at the start of the turn(when it does it)

You have to leave out a part of the sentence for it to work any other way.

"automatically arrives at the start of the fourth turn", I can see how this can be read two ways, but I don't think you have to leave anything out.

Normally at the start of the turn, you would make a reserve roll. however turn 4, you will not, so it will 'automatically arrive'.

It supports the other interpretation I agree, but not so strongly as to make all deployment moves happen outside of the movement phase.

The thing is, that this would be fine, But, it doesn't just say, it "arrives automatically". It says , at the start of the turn.

So we already agreed, that arriving = moving onto the table, we are told that it happens automatically on turn 4, and that it happens at the start of the turn.

Nothing gives you permission to arrive it at any other time, It tells you the start of the turn. If it said it automatically passes it's reserve roll at the start of the turn, it would be different.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
p162 "In the Movement phase during which they arrive, ... "

Please actually read the post and understand the argument.
You're misquoting a rule and pretending it's relevant when it's been demonstrated that it is not.
Here are the rules for arriving by Deep Strike:

Arriving by Deep Strike
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
• • First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position. If a vehicle scatters when arriving via Deep Strike, do not change its facing – it must continue to face the same direction as it did before you rolled for scatter.
• • Next, the unit’s remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be placed in base contact with the first model and begin to form a circle around it. When the first circle is complete, a further concentric circle must be placed with each model touching the circle inside it. Each circle must include as many models as will fit.
• • Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain.

Please highlight where they are said to arrive during the movement phase.



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 BlackTalos wrote:
Wow, talk about getting everyone arguing and confused......

I'm actually second-guessing my position again....., especially with this now: "Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move."

The underlined is creating a timing break where the movement phase could start?
Going to need to think about this some more before a next post......

Why does it mean anything other than what it says? So you know what arrived before any of it deploys...
That doesn't change anything at all with the argument.

harkequin wrote:
The thing is, that this would be fine, But, it doesn't just say, it "arrives automatically". It says , at the start of the turn.

So we already agreed, that arriving = moving onto the table, we are told that it happens automatically on turn 4, and that it happens at the start of the turn.

Nothing gives you permission to arrive it at any other time, It tells you the start of the turn. If it said it automatically passes it's reserve roll at the start of the turn, it would be different.

I agree that that interpretation is stronger, but I do not think it is explicitly strong enough to justify applying it to all turns,other than turn 4, and therefore permitting double movement, and invalidating rules in the deep strike section

Captyn_Bob wrote:
"automatically arrives at the start of the fourth turn", I can see how this can be read two ways, but I don't think you have to leave anything out.

Normally at the start of the turn, you would make a reserve roll. however turn 4, you will not, so it will 'automatically arrive'.

And what happens when a unit arrives from Reserves?

I have, and I don't think I am misquoting.

If you want to disregard that text, and have a valid reason to do so, then fine, but don't pretend it doesn't exist.

Captyn_Bob wrote:

harkequin wrote:
The thing is, that this would be fine, But, it doesn't just say, it "arrives automatically". It says , at the start of the turn.

So we already agreed, that arriving = moving onto the table, we are told that it happens automatically on turn 4, and that it happens at the start of the turn.

Nothing gives you permission to arrive it at any other time, It tells you the start of the turn. If it said it automatically passes it's reserve roll at the start of the turn, it would be different.

I agree that that interpretation is stronger, but I do not think it is explicitly strong enough to justify applying it to all turns,other than turn 4, and therefore permitting double movement, and invalidating rules in the deep strike section

It doesn't permit double movement - interpretation #2 does. It doesn't invalidate anything in the Deep Strike section, at all.

Yeah the double move thing is clearly not the rules either way you look at it. Consider it dropped.

harkequin wrote:

but why would it be stuck swooping if it can move an extra 24"?

Sorry, I should have been clearer, I thought you were asking how ongoing reserves were relevant, eg. Why does it matter if ongoing reserves happens at the start?

Legally, coming on from ongoing reserves , it may not move any further, It is the way, it has been, and is played.

Using the argument that Since it arrived during the start of the turn, it may then move normally, in it's movement phase...

This would be a big deal for a lot of players since, Eg. Night scythes, 36"move +24" gun, = 60"threat range, meaning that hammer and anvil deployment(?) the opponent would be safe in the back 12" of his field. If you follow the other arguement, then he has nowhere to hide, because i can double move.

It's just highlighting how people trying to use semantics to suit themselves, will in fact break the game in other places, allowing things like this to happen.

sorry to quote back so far, but this is why i brought up ongoing reserves.
to me it would appear to be the same as the way people are saying the blood tithe works. they both happen before the movement phase. they both have units arriving in swooping mode.

True enough, and its useful for constructing a HIWPI interpretation.

slamma wrote:
sorry to quote back so far, but this is why i brought up ongoing reserves.
to me it would appear to be the same as the way people are saying the blood tithe works. they both happen before the movement phase. they both have units arriving in swooping mode.

Correct. This is a consequence of reading #2 that its defenders refuse to address.
Because, somehow, the BTBT is the only model ever that can enter play at the Start of Turn (despite lots of evidence otherwise).

I spoke to my local judge and he is in agreement the Blood tithe summoned blood thirster should be able to come in swooping, then switch to gliding due to turn order. Food for thought.

A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.

So, at the time the rules were created, there were three ways for a FMC to get onto the board.

A) Start of the game deployment = Gliding
B) Regular Reserves = Players choice
C) Deep Strike Reserves = Swooping

Regardless of whether Deep Strike Reserves arrives at the start of the turn or the movement phase, the crux of the issue is that the BTBT wording seems to imply that it doesn't arrive from Deep Strike Reserves but simply uses Deep Strike. This creates the problem that the BTBT wording doesn't fit into the other two options for a FMC starting mode either. In which case it looks like we simply have a broken rule and it creates a HYWPI situation of deciding which of the three choices you and your group thinks fits best.

The crux of one of the problems certainly.


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I'm pretty happy with it arriving swooping, its the only sensible precedent.

Angrygrot wrote:
I spoke to my local judge and he is in agreement the Blood tithe summoned blood thirster should be able to come in swooping, then switch to gliding due to turn order. Food for thought.

So he thinks everything that Deepstrikes can do so too? Or has he not bothered to read the rules? My advice in either case is to not go to this guy for rules advice in future and direct him to this thread and this forum where he can learn about the rules.

I think it depends on who you're playing. I have discussed this very issue with all of the people I play. I like to be transparent as I'm only interested in having some fun. I have presented both sides of the argument to my friends and every single one of them is happy he can charge the turn after he is summoned. We all agree this was the intention of summoning such a unit.

This thread is going back and forth and getting no where. It's clearly not as clear as people are stating otherwise it wouldn't be an 11 page debate. So until it is FAQ'd, (if it is ever) then it's probably best to just discuss it with your opponent/gaming group/TO.

To be fair, I joined dakka with the intention of brushing up on competitive techniques to possibly begin to play tournaments. A day or two on YMDC and it definitely puts me of the tournament scene.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
I think it depends on who you're playing. I have discussed this very issue with all of the people I play. I like to be transparent as I'm only interested in having some fun. I have presented both sides of the argument to my friends and every single one of them is happy he can charge the turn after he is summoned. We all agree this was the intention of summoning such a unit.

This thread is going back and forth and getting no where. It's clearly not as clear as people are stating otherwise it wouldn't be an 11 page debate. So until it is FAQ'd, (if it is ever) then it's probably best to just discuss it with your opponent/gaming group/TO.

To be fair, I joined dakka with the intention of brushing up on competitive techniques to possibly begin to play tournaments. A day or two on YMDC and it definitely puts me of the tournament scene.

So do you and your friends think the same of a DSing FMC? Do you allow all units that arrive from to move twice?

Firstly, I don't see how they are being allowed to move twice. If it comes in from deep strike it cannot move. That rule we all know. Although changing flight modes happens in the movement phase, it isn't a move.

Secondly, although coming in via deep strike, the unit isn't coming in from reserve. So the way it works as per the blood tithe summon is in fact inherently different from a unit purposefully placed in reserve.

Now those two points will likely be decimated with people sat in front of rule books picking out specific sentences and words to suit and defend their own arguments. I'm at work and unfortunately don't have that luxury. But ignoring all specifics and semantics for a moment, it simply doesn't make sense that the writter intended for a predominantly combat orientated unit to arrive as per a summoning from the blood tithe table, and not be able to assault until it's third turn on the board. Why would that ever make sense? How could that ever be a logical intent?

You are suggesting that they have released a book that is clearly designed to boost the sales of the chaos units that are currently under performing in the sales department. And then present you with some promise with a specific rule set for those models, only to then snatch away any sort of competitive edge that rule set is giving you.

It makes sense that the new bloodthirster or winged daemon Prince turns up and must take at least one turn of full shooting from an opponent. That at least gives the opponent a chance. But considering the unit is likely to turn up turn 2 or 3...i doubt very much they meant for a 250 point bloodthirster to be summoned in order to be absolutely useless and have no bearing on the game. Otherwise it is utterly pointless saving your tithe points for the summoning.

Having played with this army for a few games now, and played with my friends and our interpretation of the rules (which were backed up by our local GW for what it's worth... I know not a great deal) the way we play it makes more sense. I am yet to win. But they at least have an affect.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Angrygrot 641693prull wrote:I spoke to my local judge and he is in agreement the Blood tithe summoned blood thirster should be able to come in swooping, then switch to gliding due to turn order. Food for thought.

So he thinks everything that Deepstrikes can do so too? Or has he not bothered to read the rules? My advice in either case is to not go to this guy for rules advice in future and direct him to this thread and this forum where he can learn about the rules.

Woah easy bud. I was just trying to contribute to the conversation. The judge in my area is pretty knowledge and I'd trust his interpretations over my own (I make mistakes...often)

Now those two points will likely be decimated with people sat in front of rule books picking out specific sentences and words to suit and defend their own arguments. I'm at work and unfortunately don't have that luxury. But ignoring all specifics and semantics for a moment, it simply doesn't make sense that the writter intended for a predominantly combat orientated unit to arrive as per a summoning from the blood tithe table, and not be able to assault until it's third turn on the board. Why would that ever make sense? How could that ever be a logical intent?

Why would that intent argument not work for Bloodthirsters summoned using Malefic?

It makes sense that the new bloodthirster or winged daemon Prince turns up and must take at least one turn of full shooting from an opponent. That at least gives the opponent a chance. But considering the unit is likely to turn up turn 2 or 3...i doubt very much they meant for a 250 point bloodthirster to be summoned in order to be absolutely useless and have no bearing on the game. Otherwise it is utterly pointless saving your tithe points for the summoning.

It is not a 250 point model it is a free model. Pretty much the entire codex is geared towards not saving BT points. They give you the option to take a DP without wings and an axe that contains 2 Bloodthirsters. Again I don't see why you think this works differently to any normal DS? There is nothing different about it except you want your BT in combat sooner.

Having played with this army for a few games now, and played with my friends and our interpretation of the rules (which were backed up by our local GW for what it's worth... I know not a great deal) the way we play it makes more sense. I am yet to win. But they at least have an affect.

Cool I'm glad you enjoy it and play by a house rule people are happy with.

When using malefic powers your summoning isn't restricted to just a bloodthirster as far as greater daemons go. So it is possible to summon a greater daemon that isn't simply designed for combat. Equally, with enough warp charge on the board you could summon one or two in the first turn. That is basically impossible with daemonkin.

You are right, I do want my bloodthirster in combat sooner. It's what it's designed for and it's what keeps the blood God happy. But that is also part of my point with regards to this thread. The people that want it in sooner will argue one point. The people that don't will argue against it. Thats why I said discuss it. See what your opponent says. Make a decision and play from there. Because until they FAQ it this argument won't be solved.

If I was to get technical to back my argument (again, remember I have no rulebook) I am of the opinion that the blood tithe summoning happens outside of the movement phase and in fact happens before. The movement phase then starts and I choose to glide. It comes with its downside. Ie being shot at with full ballistic skill.

And to your last point, surely that's the whole point in this game. To enjoy ourselves. I am not saying your argument is wrong. Or incorrect. Simply a different interpretation. And if that's how your friends are happy to play it then you're sorted.


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And another point to malefic summoning... It happens after the movement phase.

Flingitnow

Conventional reserves (which blood tithe is obviously not, having completely different rules) will never allow you to "move twice" as the reserves section clearly states that you deploy all your arriving units , then move your other units. There is no justification at all for a double move argument , and it does seem to be confusing discussion.

Blood tithe is not reserves . It is also not the same as summoning via maelific daemonology , which has different rules, and more importantly happens in the psychic phase , so moving is completely impossible on the turn you arrive.