Khorne Daemonkin

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**Filch**

So is Khorne Daemonkin any good?

**Captyn_Bob**

Oh filch you do make me laugh.

Yeah it's excellent. So good we've spent 12 pages discussing how well written one of it's core mechanics is.

**Angrygrot**

Its very, very powerful. Mixing of daemons with marine squads solves their leadership issues and gives them added special abilities.

Has access to strong units in CSM and Daemons

Powerful artifacts (60 point blood thirster), crazy funny combos (Bloodthirster+daemonprince+another blood thirster via blood tithe and the artifact axe)

And you can summon and hand out fnp like candy.

Don't even get me started on the Gorepack...*licks bloody lips*

It provides a great delivery system for your bloodthirsters and allows them to assault the next turn they are summoned. This is huge. Before they would just be bolter bait.

**Khaine's Wrath**

I can't decide if there is a hint of sarcasm within part of that last post....

**Tonberry7**

Wow another couple of pages of posts already. The only relevance for Reserves is to compare Blood Tithe Bloodthirsters with those that could be arriving from Deep Strike Reserve. We know the the Deep Strike Reserve ones arrive in the movement phase as described in the rules, whereas the Blood Tithe Bloodthirster immediately arrives in the start of the turn phase. The rules are clear on this, and the rules for reserves in general work a lot better when you consider they actually move onto the board at the start of the movement phase. Since the Blood Tithe Bloodthirster is on the table before the movement phase starts, they have the opportunity to change their flight mode at the start of their move. All of the above has been cited and demonstrated in my previous posts if you've followed the thread.

**Captyn_Bob**

My Recap:

The crux of the matter for me, is whether there are any rules, that prevent a FMC arriving via the blood tithe moving in the following movement phase.

The only rule that prevents this movement, is this one:

"In the movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further.."

Some people think this should apply, (and it certainly is what we are used to for deep striking units), others don't.

Not having the slightest idea what the author intended, I'm only left with strictest RAW to inform my choice.

As the prerequisite to the restriction is ""In the movement phase during which they arrive" I do not see by RAW how the restriction can apply, as the Blood Tithe units do not arrive in the movement phase.

**Filch**

Khaine's Wrath wrote:
I can't decide if there is a hint of sarcasm within part of that last post....

I cant tell either.

**Trasvi**

Captyn_Bob wrote:
My Recap:
....
As the prerequisite to the restriction is ""In the movement phase during which they arrive" I do not see by RAW how the restriction can apply, as the Blood Tithe units do not arrive in the movement phase.

The corollary to this is that other reserves - possibly including all reserves (depending on your reading of the rules) but definitely including Ongoing Reserves and all reserves arriving by any means on turn 4, including via deep strike - will be subject to the same RAW as they arrive before the movement phase, and can thus move (and FMCs may change flight modes if desired).

That's not to say that your interpretation isn't correct per se... only that no-one has thought, desired or attempted to play it that way this edition.

Tonberry7 wrote:
Wow another couple of pages of posts already. The only relevance for Reserves is to compare Blood Tithe Bloodthirsters with those that could be arriving from Deep Strike Reserve.

The above is why people keep bringing up the rules for reserves even though they're not immediately relevant to Blood Tithe summoning. Interpreting Blood Tithe in a way that allows Bloodthirsters to change flight mode the turn they arrive is in contradiction to the way that everyone plays the game. Again, that doesn't necessarily mean the interpretation is wrong... but it should be a good indication that *something* is wrong.

**Captyn_Bob**

But remember, the reserves section specifies you move arriving units, then all other units, which precludes the arriving units moving again.

**FlingitNow**

Khaine's Wrath wrote:
When using malefic powers your summoning isn't restricted to just a bloodthirster as far as greater daemons go. So it is possible to summon a greater daemon that isn't simply designed for combat. Equally, with enough warp charge on the board you could summon one or two in the first turn. That is basically impossible with daemonkin.

You are right, I do want my bloodthirster in combat sooner. It's what it's designed for and it's what keeps the blood God happy. But that is also part of my point with regards to this thread. The people that want it in sooner will argue one point. The people that don't will argue against it. Thats why I said discuss it. See what your opponent says. Make a decision and play from there. Because until they FAQ it this argument won't be solved.

If I was to get technical to back my argument (again, remember I have no rulebook) I am of the opinion that the blood tithe summoning happens outside of the movement phase and in fact happens before. The movement phase then starts and I choose to glide. It comes with its downside. Ie being shot at with full ballistic skill.

And to your last point, surely that's the whole point in this game. To enjoy ourselves. I am not saying your argument is wrong. Or incorrect. Simply a different interpretation. And if that's how your friends are happy to play it then you're sorted.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And another point to malefic summoning... It happens after the movement phase.

I would also love my bloodthirsters to get into combat a turn earlier, just not willing to cheat to win at toy soldiers. My point with Malefic is that your intent argument is just as valid for that and we know it can't possibly be right for that. Also this thread isn't for people telling others about their house rule. Or what people think should be the rules (I think tactical marines should be relentless, Berzerkers should have 2 attacks base, Vespids should be assault 2 etc but I don't write the rules). This thread is to discuss what the actual rules are. In this case they are abundantly clear that you arrive swooping and can't move after that and the swooping lasts until the start of your next turn unless you are grounded.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

My Recap:

The crux of the matter for me, is whether there are any rules, that prevent a FMC arriving via the blood tithe moving in the following movement phase.

The only rule that prevents this movement, is this one:

"In the movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further.."

Some people think this should apply, (and it certainly is what we are used to for deep striking units), others don't.

Not having the slightest idea what the author intended, I'm only left with strictest RAW to inform my choice.

As the prerequisite to the restriction is ""In the movement phase during which they arrive" I do not see by RAW how the restriction can apply, as the Blood Tithe units do not arrive in the movement phase.

So you believe this is true for all Deep striking units? You can't use that rule to say it only applies to more deals that arrive in the movement phase by DS AND that it means that models that arrive by DS do so in the movement phase. You're using 2 contradictory readings of a rule to try to justify your argument which still falls apart when discussing on going reserves and turn 4 reserves...

**Captyn_Bob**

I've presented my opinion on reserves, and won't again, as it has no relevance to the bloodtithe.

The deep strike rules are used on many occasions, not just for reserves, and disregarding them arbitrarily cannot possibly be RAW.

**FlingitNow**

Captyn_Bob wrote:
I've presented my opinion on reserves, and won't again, as it has no relevance to the bloodtithe.

The deep strike rules are used on many occasions, not just for reserves, and disregarding them arbitrarily cannot possibly be RAW.

When your argument is based on read a rule 2 contradictory ways at the same time to justify it apply to someone and not to others you're going to have to back that up. When your interpretation means that a rule does nothing in context and never applies then you're going to have to back that up with nothing very concrete.

Anyway it has been clear for many pages now that you're not willing to discuss actual RaW. You want the rules to work a special way for your unit with literally no justification. You want the Blood tithe to be different when it is clearly the same. You're ignoring the rules or changing to mean 2 different wrong things at the same time to justify want you want the rules to be. So why bother discussing further? The rules are clear. Everyone arrives during the start of the turn. BT is not some special flower and there are literally no rules that make it interact with Deep strike in any way differently to a unit arriving via DS reserves. I think we're done here.

You're going to keep claiming BT is special because you arrive during the start of the turn. We're going to keep pointing out everyone arrives during the start of the turn and you're going to continue to ignore that fact.

**Captyn_Bob**

I have nothing more to say. (To you)

**Tonberry7**

FlingitNow wrote:
Captyn_Bob wrote:
I've presented my opinion on reserves, and won't again, as it has no relevance to the bloodtithe.

The deep strike rules are used on many occasions, not just for reserves, and disregarding them arbitrarily cannot possibly be RAW.

When your argument is based on read a rule 2 contradictory ways at the same time to justify it apply to someone and not to others you're going to have to back that up. When your interpretation means that a rule does nothing in context and never applies then you're going to have to back that up with nothing very concrete.

Anyway it has been clear for many pages now that you're not willing to discuss actual RaW. You want the rules to work a special way for your unit with literally no justification. You want the Blood tithe to be different when it is clearly the same. You're ignoring the rules or changing to mean 2 different wrong things at the same time to justify want you want the rules to be. So why bother discussing further? The rules are clear. Everyone arrives during the start of the turn. BT is not some special flower and there are literally no rules that make it interact with Deep strike in any way differently to a unit arriving via DS reserves. I think we're done here.

You're going to keep claiming BT is special because you arrive during the start of the turn. We're going to keep pointing out everyone arrives during the start of the turn and you're going to continue to ignore that fact.

So, 12 pages in and no consensus reached, a not uncommon scenario in YMDC. Inevitably we're going round in circles at this point, both sides of the argument believe they have proved their case by RAW and think the other side is wrong. There's probably not much more to be gained by reiterating the same arguments. Just be aware that any snarky accusations or insinuations you throw out (cheating, house ruling, HYWPI etc.) Is not only rude but applies equally to yourself in this situation.

**BlackTalos**

rigeld2 wrote:
BlackTalos wrote:
Wow, talk about getting everyone arguing and confused......

I'm actually second-guessing my position again....., especially with this now: "Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move."

The underlined is creating a timing break where the movement phase could start?
Going to need to think about this some more before a next post......

Why does it mean anything other than what it says? So you know what arrived before any of it deploys...
That doesn't change anything at all with the argument.

Okay, so looking at this from a fresh new day and some new posts with views:

BlackTalos wrote:
We're stuck on one side reading:
" In the movement phase during which [they arrive] " - Arriving (at any time) has the following restriction "during the movement phase"

And the other convinced:
" [In the movement phase] during which they arrive " - This only ever happens "In the movement phase".

Well, i'd go for the first, while other read the second. Will anyone have RaW support for either?
Or is it maybe down to interpretation of the same rule, so neither side will be "100% correct, mark yours as HYWPI"?

Could we accept both exist and might be correct?

This is still how i'm seeing it. The way the rules are written:

BlackTalos wrote:
Arriving by Deep Strike contains instructions for arrival (during Reserves), and then three points:

In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from (...).
In that turn’s Shooting phase, these units can fire (or Run, Turbo-boost or move Flat Out) as normal, and count (...)
In that turn’s Assault phase, however, these units cannot charge. This also applies to units that have disembarked from Transports that arrived by Deep Strike that turn.

Clearly, those rules are relevant to those Phases only (and would not apply for the previous paragraph...)

Would seem to point at interpretation #1: The rule about the movement phase is a constant that applies to all Deep Striking Units, not a Rule that enforces arrival during the Movement phase which Blood Tithe then conflicts with... (Version #2)

But if you take Version #2 at face value (with the assumption that the piece of RaW quoted is now forcing all Deep Striking Units to arrive during the movement Phase "only") then i do not see any RaW being broken either...
The only ones that were used for support can be (validly) interpreted as applying to the Reserves Dice rolls (which are definitely not in the movement Phase, for both #1 and #2):

Captyn_Bob wrote:
"automatically arrives at the start of the fourth turn", I can see how this can be read two ways, but I don't think you have to leave anything out.

Normally at the start of the turn, you would make a reserve roll. however turn 4, you will not, so it will 'automatically arrive'.

It supports the other interpretation I agree, but not so strongly as to make all deployment moves happen outside of the movement phase.

I might be alone in seeing a difference between "arriving at the start of the Turn" = / = "deploying at the start of the Turn" and how "arriving at the start of the Turn" does not preclude "deploying during the movement phase" which is what Version 2 is doing (Forcing deployment of DSing units to the mvt phase)

Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
BlackTalos wrote:
Wow, talk about getting everyone arguing and confused......

I'm actually second-guessing my position again....., especially with this now: "Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move."

The underlined is creating a timing break where the movement phase could start?
Going to need to think about this some more before a next post......

Why does it mean anything other than what it says? So you know what arrived before any of it deploys...
That doesn't change anything at all with the argument.

Sorry, back to replying to this, and why the RaW above was important: It support version #2's basis that (as underlined above) Arriving =/= Deploying.

**FlingitNow**

I might be alone in seeing a difference between "arriving at the start of the Turn" = / = "deploying at the start of the Turn" and how "arriving at the start of the Turn" does not preclude "deploying during the movement phase" which is what Version 2 is doing (Forcing deployment of DSing units to the mvt phase)

So arriving does not mean deploying. However all the relevant rules are not concerned with how/when you deploy but how/when you arrive. So this distinction still invalidates version 2, as that was based on a rule making you ARRIVE during the movement phase (not deploy). So I think you have absolutely categorically disproven version 2.

**BlackTalos**

FlingitNow wrote:
I might be alone in seeing a difference between "arriving at the start of the Turn" = / = "deploying at the start of the Turn" and how "arriving at the start of the Turn" does not preclude "deploying during the movement phase" which is what Version 2 is doing (Forcing deployment of DSing units to the mvt phase)

So arriving does not mean deploying. However all the relevant rules are not concerned with how/when you deploy but how/when you arrive. So this distinction still invalidates version 2, as that was based on a rule making you ARRIVE during the movement phase (not deploy). So I think you have absolutely categorically disproven version 2.

I see what you mean.
"In the Movement phase during which they arrive", per Version #2, would force "arrival", not "deployment", during the movement phase.
"automatically arrives at the start of the fourth turn" cannot then be followed (Rule broken), because it forces "arrival" at the start of the fourth turn, which cannot be the movement phase.

I think we've finally reached the destination lol

**FlingitNow**

BlackTalos wrote:
FlingitNow wrote:
I might be alone in seeing a difference between "arriving at the start of the Turn" = / = "deploying at the start of the Turn" and how "arriving at the start of the Turn" does not preclude "deploying during the movement phase" which is what Version 2 is doing (Forcing deployment of DSing units to the mvt phase)

So arriving does not mean deploying. However all the relevant rules are not concerned with how/when you deploy but how/when you arrive. So this distinction still invalidates version 2, as that was based on a rule making you ARRIVE during the movement phase (not deploy). So I think you have absolutely categorically disproven version 2.

I see what you mean.
"In the Movement phase during which they arrive", per Version #2, would force "arrival", not "deployment", during the movement phase.
"automatically arrives at the start of the fourth turn" cannot then be followed (Rule broken), because it forces "arrival" at the start of the fourth turn, which cannot be the movement phase.

I think we've finally reached the destination lol

Yeah I think we're all there now (whether or not everyone will admit to it).

**BlackTalos**

I'd rather let anyone still "on Version #2", that is still in the mind that Blood Tithe summoned Blood Thirsters could change flight mode on arrival, come forward with any arguments after having at least read the above 4 posts.

Now i've got a clearer mind on this i think i can explain why that is not how the RaW can be interpreted. (Rather than "No, you're wrong!" )

**Captyn_Bob**

BlackTalos wrote:
FlingitNow wrote:
I might be alone in seeing a difference between "arriving at the start of the Turn" = / = "deploying at the start of the Turn" and how "arriving at the start of the Turn" does not preclude "deploying during the movement phase" which is what Version 2 is doing (Forcing deployment of DSing units to the mvt phase)

So arriving does not mean deploying. However all the relevant rules are not concerned with how/when you deploy but how/when you arrive. So this distinction still invalidates version 2, as that was based on a rule making you ARRIVE during the movement phase (not deploy). So I think you have absolutely categorically disproven version 2.

I see what you mean.
"In the Movement phase during which they arrive", per Version #2, would force "arrival", not "deployment", during the movement phase.
"automatically arrives at the start of the fourth turn" cannot then be followed (Rule broken), because it forces "arrival" at the start of the fourth turn, which cannot be the movement phase.

I think we've finally reached the destination lol

Whichever way you look at it, one statement doesn't make sense. Which is why I believe "automatically arrives at the start of the fourth turn" is referring to the Reserves Roll automatically passing. Which when read in context of the paragraph, males perfect sense.

**BlackTalos**

I would also add that i've been thinking of Version #3:

The one where the Start of the Turn (right after the end of the previous Turn) is already the Movement Phase, but then that also means that the BTBT arrives in the movement phase along with every other reserve...

**FlingitNow**

Whichever way you look at it, one statement doesn't make sense. Which is why I believe "automatically arrives at the start of the fourth turn" is referring to the Reserves Roll automatically passing. Which when read in context of the paragraph, males perfect sense.

So you at best have arriving =/= arriving and therefore this restriction that has nothing to do with when reserves arrive can be used to make reserves arrive in the movement phase...

**Captyn_Bob**

BlackTalos wrote:
I would also add that i've been thinking of Version #3:

The one where the Start of the Turn (right after the end of the previous Turn) is already the Movement Phase, but then that also means that the BTBT arrives in the movement phase along with every other reserve...

In general gameplay this would make no difference , however he definition of Start of turn , does state that things that happen at the start of turn occur before the movement phase. I'm sure there are a large number of examples where this is important

**BlackTalos**

Captyn_Bob wrote:
BlackTalos wrote:
FlingitNow wrote:
I might be alone in seeing a difference between "arriving at the start of the Turn" = / = "deploying at the start of the Turn" and how "arriving at the start of the Turn" does not preclude "deploying during the movement phase" which is what Version 2 is doing (Forcing deployment of DSing units to the mvt phase)

So arriving does not mean deploying. However all the relevant rules are not concerned with how/when you deploy but how/when you arrive. So this distinction still invalidates version 2, as that was based on a rule making you ARRIVE during the movement phase (not deploy). So I think you have absolutely categorically disproven version 2.

I see what you mean.
"In the Movement phase during which they arrive", per Version #2, would force "arrival", not "deployment", during the movement phase.
"automatically arrives at the start of the fourth turn" cannot then be followed (Rule broken), because it forces "arrival" at the start of the fourth turn, which cannot be the movement phase.

I think we've finally reached the destination lol

Whichever way you look at it, one statement doesn't make sense. Which is why I believe "automatically arrives at the start of the fourth turn" is referring to the Reserves Roll automatically passing. Which when read in context of the paragraph, males perfect sense.

I dunno, Version #1 make complete sense to me, have you read the 3rd quote in my long post above?
"In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further" applies to any Deep Striking Units arriving (Blood Tithe, Demonic summoning, Deep Strike Reserves...) and the "In the Movement phase" just states when the Rule actually applies (it's not about when the "Deep Striking units" actually arrive)

As for a Version #2, and the rule about Reserves arriving, it must imply the "arrival" of all Deep Striking units is in the movement phase. But "Arriving from Reserve" and "Moving On From Reserve" (Arriving V Deploying) are quite clear. IE in your position even if "If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn." applies only to the Roll being passed, it is still the same "arrival" mentioned in the Deep Strike section.
As opposed to the Deployment refered to in the Deep Strike section (which i'm still considering could be during a movement phase)

So, in the end, a Blood Thirster kept in Reserves would be an exact duplicate (by RaW) to the one summoned by Blood Tithe. You would have to play one how you play the other (allowing flight mode switching and possibly more movement)

**Captyn_Bob**

So hypothetically. If a friendly unit arrived by deep strike at the end of the opponents turn , would it equally be unable to move? The same arguments would apply.

**BlackTalos**

Captyn_Bob wrote:
So hypothetically. If a friendly unit arrived by deep strike at the end of the opponents turn , would it equally be unable to move? The same arguments would apply.

In that Turn's Movement phase, yes, they would be unable to move (3 Phases prior to the actual arrival that would be, though)

ED: But the Deep Strike rules clearly assume you do Deployment, followed by a set of restrictions listed (technically coming later), but we are now in the area where these restrictions might be happening before the arrival, such as summoning (Demonic). So the restrictions are in the past.

**Captyn_Bob**

So your interpretation is that 'during' should be expanded to 'during the turn'? That does make things a lot neater.

I still can't see why arriving in the same phase makes the blood tithe identical to reserves.

I'm not saying it's the wrong way to play it, but it feels more like a HIWPI argument , than a strict RAW ruling.

Of course I love HIWPI arguments , but anyone making one on this forum seems to get shouted down immediately.

**FlingitNow**

I still can't see why arriving in the same phase makes the blood tithe identical to reserves.

So if they arrive at the same time how does Blood Tithe differ from arriving via Deep strike reserves such that a BT summoned FMC can change flight mode and the other can't.

**Captyn_Bob**

The arrival of reserves is laid out quite clearly , stating that you move your arriving reserves, and then move your other units.

This inherently precludes deep strikes reserves from moving again. This would include changing flight modes.

The blood tithe has no such clarity.

**FlingitNow**

So is there inherent permission to move again in the movement that you believe is removed by the and then move your other units? Is that your current stance? That the DS restriction is irrelevant to units arriving by deep strike reserve or anyone else arriving by deep strike during the start of the turn.

Is this correct?