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The rule as written applies to units that arrive during the movement phase.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
So your interpretation is that 'during' should be expanded to 'during the turn'? That does make things a lot neater.

I still can't see why arriving in the same phase makes the blood tithe identical to reserves.

I'm not saying it's the wrong way to play it, but it feels more like a HIWPI argument , than a strict RAW ruling.

Of course I love HIWPI arguments , but anyone making one on this forum seems to get shouted down immediately.

I don't think that "during" needs to be expanded, but i do think it is implicit, yes.
"In the Movement phase during which they arrive". If i say "they arrive in the shooting phase", i don't think saying "In the Movement phase during which they arrive" about that specific unit is "Wrong".
"during which" is linked to the movement phase and when the rule applies, not linked to the specific time of arrival.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
The arrival of reserves is laid out quite clearly , stating that you move your arriving reserves, and then move your other units.

This inherently precludes deep strikes reserves from moving again. This would include changing flight modes.

The blood tithe has no such clarity.

But when does the Blood Tithe model arrive? because the rule "In the Movement phase during which they arrive" is talking about arrival, and Reserves arrive at the start of the Turn. If two things happen "at the Start of the Turn" are they not simultaneous (and "the Same") ? As the player who's Turn it is, you could choose which one you do first, but the timing of the actions if still (both) before the Movement phase start.

I cannot think of any other examples of deep strike that happen at the start of turn. I can think of several that happen in the movement phase

(deploying from some flyers, the veil of darkness,,)




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 BlackTalos wrote:
If two things happen "at the Start of the Turn" are they not simultaneous (and "the Same") ? As the player who's Turn it is, you could choose which one you do first, but the timing of the actions if still (both) before the Movement phase start.

Simultaneous, does not mean the same.. why would it? lots of stuff can be simultaneous.

I would interpret Bloodtithe arriving before reserves, but in your interpretation, yes the controlling player would choose.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Firstly, I don't see how they are being allowed to move twice. If it comes in from deep strike it cannot move. That rule we all know. Although changing flight modes happens in the movement phase, it isn't a move.

This is false. Reread the FMC rules please.

Secondly, although coming in via deep strike, the unit isn't coming in from reserve. So the way it works as per the blood tithe summon is in fact inherently different from a unit purposefully placed in reserve.

Not in the way that's been presented this entire thread.

Now those two points will likely be decimated with people sat in front of rule books picking out specific sentences and words to suit and defend their own arguments. I'm at work and unfortunately don't have that luxury. But ignoring all specifics and semantics for a moment, it simply doesn't make sense that the writter intended for a predominantly combat orientated unit to arrive as per a summoning from the blood tithe table, and not be able to assault until it's third turn on the board. Why would that ever make sense? How could that ever be a logical intent?

No, it doesn't make sense that they intended that with literally no evidence pointing to that being the case!
And if you're going to argue rules without having a rulebook, please just don't.

You are suggesting that they have released a book that is clearly designed to boost the sales of the chaos units that are currently under performing in the sales department. And then present you with some promise with a specific rule set for those models, only to then snatch away any sort of competitive edge that rule set is giving you.

Yes. Absolutely. It wouldn't be the first time.

Actually i can think of a good example for this,

Say you have a unit with a daemonkin chaos lord in deep strike reserve, and 8 points on your blood tithe.

Can you deploy your lord, and then apply the blood tithe to transform him into the BTBT?

If both events happen at the start of the turn, then that is allowed.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Actually i can think of a good example for this,

Say you have a unit with a daemonkin chaos lord in deep strike reserve, and 8 points on your blood tithe.

Can you deploy your lord, and then apply the blood tithe to transform him into the BTBT?

If both events happen at the start of the turn, then that is allowed.

Sure, absolutely.
Why - did you expect a different answer?

Just like a Synapse creature arriving from Reserves that covers a non-Synapse unit means that the non-Synapse unit doesn't have to take a Synapse test.

I think so. Controlling players choice, however iirc, there is a caveat in the brb, that models can't use "at the start of turn" items, when they arrive from reserves. As BTBT is a special rule it should be okay

The actual rule, P 136

" a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserves."

I cannot think of any other examples of deep strike that happen at the start of turn. I can think of several that happen in the movement phase 

(deploying from some flyers, the veil of darkness,,) 

So can you think of an example of a unit that arrives by deepstrike during the movement phase (not deploys but arrives).

a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserves."

Well, there you have it. You can't use it on him despite them arriving at the start of the turn. They explicitly forbid it. It's a pity.

 FlingitNow wrote:

I cannot think of any other examples of deep strike that happen at the start of turn. I can think of several that happen in the movement phase 

(deploying from some flyers, the veil of darkness,,) 

So can you think of an example of a unit that arrives by deepstrike during the movement phase (not deploys but arrives).

You appear to be making a point using wordplay..

I have already given two examples of units that can arrive by deep strike during the movement phase, which are not reserves.


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harkequin wrote:

a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserves."

Well, there you have it. You can't use it on him despite them arriving at the start of the turn. They explicitly forbid it. It's a pity.

Yeah, that question was a lot simpler than I thought it was when i posed it. But it still caught some people out, so we have learned!

harkequin wrote:

a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserves."

Well, there you have it. You can't use it on him despite them arriving at the start of the turn. They explicitly forbid it. It's a pity.

No, they don't. The Lord isn't using the Blood Tithe ability to turn into a BTBT. The Lord isn't using any special rule.

What's forbidding it?

I would consider it the use of a special ability .

Captyn_Bob wrote:
I would consider it the use of a special ability .

Is the unit that is arriving from Reserves using a special ability? Please cite rules support.

@Captyn_bob, give up arguing with him. It's pointless. He reverts to petty name calling and childish insults anyway. He is clearly incapable of accepting anyone else's view point on this matter. He claims it's clear cut and proven. But 12 pages seem to disagree. I think you and I are in agreement on how we would play this rule until it is clarified.


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rigeld2 wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
I would consider it the use of a special ability .

Is the unit that is arriving from Reserves using a special ability? Please cite rules support.

Yes, the unit isn't actually arriving from reserves. It is arriving due to a rule that no other army has.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
@Captyn_bob, give up arguing with him. It's pointless. He reverts to petty name calling and childish insults anyway.

I do? Please, prove it. I'm begging you to. If I had, of course, you'd have reported me to the mods for breaking rule #1 - but I haven't.

He is clearly incapable of accepting anyone else's view point on this matter. He claims it's clear cut and proven. But 12 pages seem to disagree. I think you and I are in agreement on how we would play this rule until it is clarified.

I guarantee I could argue with you for 12 pages about the color of the sky, or the mathematical value of 2+2. That doesn't mean it's not clear cut.

rigeld2 wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
I would consider it the use of a special ability .

Is the unit that is arriving from Reserves using a special ability? Please cite rules support.

Yes, the unit isn't actually arriving from reserves. It is arriving due to a rule that no other army has.

The Lord that's being nuked for the BTBT isn't arriving from Reserves? Because that's what this part of the conversation is talking about.

sorry Rigeld, khaine seems to have missed your point.

The special rule being invoked is Blood For the Blood God. I believe that is applicable.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
sorry Rigeld, khaine seems to have missed your point.

The special rule being invoked is Blood For the Blood God. I believe that is applicable.

But is the arriving unit the one invoking it? That's the question.
If so, then you're right.
If not (and I'm pretty sure no one unit invokes BFTBG to trade in blood points) then there's no restriction.

Blood for the blood god! is certainly involved at one end of the other, so I think the restriction will apply, being sensible.

Rigeld2, the first part of my post wasn't aimed at you my friend but at another. The reply to your comment was the only part meant to address yourself. My apologies.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Blood for the blood god! is certainly involved at one end of the other, so I think the restriction will apply, being sensible.

Yes, a special rule is involved. You're obviously not understanding what I'm saying.

Does the Lord's unit invoke BFTBG to trade in blood points, or does the army do it as a whole? Should be a trivial question to answer using actual rules, and not your feelings.

I'm not sure I understand either. The army has the BFTBG special rule and it is applied at the very start of the controlling players turn.

Is this the answer you're after?

The target must have the rule for the active effect to take place. Which falls under the blanket statement of 'use'.

'Invoke ' isn't mentioned .

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
I'm not sure I understand either. The army has the BFTBG special rule and it is applied at the very start of the controlling players turn.

Is this the answer you're after?

Possibly. You're clearly not actually following the conversation.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
The target must have the rule for the active effect to take place. Which falls under the blanket statement of 'use'.

'Invoke ' isn't mentioned .

I don't have my book with me so I apologize for asking.

Is the Bloodthirster summon worded "Select a character in your army. That character spends 8 blood tithe points and explodes into a BT" or something similar? Or is it more similar to "Select a character in your army - that character explodes into a BT."?
Do you understand why the different wording is relevant?

The points are spent by the army, and the reward applied.

the exact wording;

"choose one friendly character with the Blood for the Blood god Rule special rule",

That character must immediately take a Leadership test..." and so on

I'm not sure I understand the difference in wording, either way the character is using the special rule, either directly or indirectly.

I clearly am following the conversation thank you very much. I just do not understand the route you are following now. It seems I am not the only one.

Just thought i'd put in a comment here: what Rigeld was saying is quite clear to me.

We are now talking about this rule:
"a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserves."

Make sure you take note of the underlined.

What does this Rule say? that any Unit arriving from Reserves cannot use abilities or special rules (that must be used at the start of the turn).

So, is the Lord (Unit) who arrived from reserves, allowed to use one of his abilities (that must be used at the start of the turn)?
No

But can an army-wide rule (that must be used at the start of the turn) be used on the Lord? (BFTBG)
Yes

Because it is not an ability that the Lord (Unit) is using. It's like the Daemon Codex table that affect everything on the board: it is also a "(that must be used at the start of the turn)" effect, but it could affect Units that arrived from reserves (if they arrived before you rolled on the table <= if that is even possible)

 BlackTalos wrote:
Just thought i'd put in a comment here: what Rigeld was saying is quite clear to me.

We are now talking about this rule:
"a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserves."

Make sure you take note of the underlined.

What does this Rule say? that any Unit arriving from Reserves cannot use abilities or special rules (that must be used at the start of the turn).

So, is the Lord (Unit) who arrived from reserves, allowed to use one of his abilities (that must be used at the start of the turn)?
No

But can an army-wide rule (that must be used at the start of the turn) be used on the Lord? (BFTBG)
Yes

Because it is not an ability that the Lord (Unit) is using. It's like the Daemon Codex table that affect everything on the board: it is also a "(that must be used at the start of the turn)" effect, but it could affect Units that arrived from reserves (if they arrived before you rolled on the table <= if that is even possible)

Exactly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
The points are spent by the army, and the reward applied.

the exact wording;

"choose one friendly character with the Blood for the Blood god Rule special rule",

That character must immediately take a Leadership test..." and so on

I'm not sure I understand the difference in wording, either way the character is using the special rule, either directly or indirectly.

No, indirectly isn't enough. The unit is not using the special rule - the army is. Which is very relevant when the restriction is on the unit using the special rule.

Alright , you disagree. It's clearly intended to be a blanket statment to establish sequencing. But ultimately I don't care, as I think reserves arrive in the movement phase not the start of turn. but you guys play how you want. I think I have at least found an instance where the the difference matters. Amazingly still found disagreement. Never mind.

I think I'm done with this thread.

The only remaining dilemma is do I glue wings onto my daemon Prince or not...

I guess I'll pin them. :-)

Captain Bob is right where or not some are willing to admit it. There's really no point in any further discussion.