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IMHO, Warbosses have been screaming out for a decent alternative to power klaws for some time now. This was the only thing that really disappointed me about the new codex - more for fluff reasons than in-game effectiveness.

The general consensus, with which I agree, is that power klaws with da lukky stikk are the way to go for warbosses. 4-5 WS6 S10 AP2 hits rerolling as many hits and wounds as you like for 50 points (all in) simply blows every other option out of the water.

A large part of the problem is that the Warboss' initiative is not that great in the first place, so the situations in which you might want to strike at initiative are limited. They certainly exist - carnifexes, anyone? - but the trade-off in power compared to just getting the damn klaw is too big a price to pay.

Big choppas are *OK* when spammed on large squads of nobz. However, the improvement in overall damage output over the basic choppa and slugga is marginal save for certain situations. Taking 2-3 hidden power klaws is the better alternative for most situations.

'Eadwoppa's killchoppa is a relic, so in theory you could take it in addition to the power klaw and just whip it out when needed as a kind of insurance policy. I actually don't think this is a terrible idea. Even non-rending wounds will instagib most things on the charge if they go unsaved. The only problem with this approach is that, as it's a relic, it prevents you from taking da lukky stikk.

If you run a great waaagh! list, then the choppa of the ragnarork works pretty well as a backup weapon, particularly when you consider that, RAW, the wounds needed to charge it up do not need to be caused by the choppa itself. Against Necrons, this is an absolute godsend, and since you will need all the help you can get, you might as well take advantage of their one glaring weakness of having even worse initiative than Orks. But this is not available in standard Codex: Orks lists, and if even if it were, it would compete with da lukky stikk and lose.

So as we see, another part of the problem is that our current special choppas do have utility as backup weapons, but taking them prevents us from taking da lukky stikk. Not only does this compromise on the boss' own damage output, but it compromises that of the squad he's with. WS5 slugga boys are simply monstrous.

My proposal is that there should be a special choppa weapon that provides a viable alternative to the power klaw. Perhaps an AP2 or AP3 big choppa that strikes at initiative, with a corresponding points cost. Such a weapon would be very fluffy, and useful for those scenarios where striking at initiative would actually help. It wouldn't render the power klaw redundant either, as S10 AP2 will smash up most units.

Thoughts?

If you wanted an 'at initiative' weapon, I'd definitely stick with AP3. AP3 is good, but still makes the decision between your suggested Super-Choppa and Power Klaw a significant one.

There are precedents for unique close combat weapons for a single HQ type - the Succubus' Glaive, for example. And certainly, the Warboss can justfy it when you bear in mind how freakin' big he is...

Choppa of da Ragnarork would fit this niche. Starts off as a Choppa, +2 Str AP5, but with every enemy defeated, add a further +1 Str and AP.
After killing 4 opponents you have a +6 Str AP1 weapon striking at Initiative.

I'd recommend you charge your Warboss into combat with some Guardsmen or other weedy fodder, come out drenched in gore with a MC/ Tank killing super Choppa!

 r_squared wrote:
Choppa of da Ragnarork would fit this niche. Starts off as a Choppa, +2 Str AP5, but with every enemy defeated, add a further +1 Str and AP.
After killing 4 opponents you have a +6 Str AP1 weapon striking at Initiative.

I'd recommend you charge your Warboss into combat with some Guardsmen or other weedy fodder, come out drenched in gore with a MC/ Tank killing super Choppa!

Sadly, the Choppa of the Ragnarork doesn't work this way. If it did, I would take the Great Waaagh! detachment more often.

The Choppa of the Ragnarork starts at +2 strength ap5 (correct), but gives you the additional +1 strength and -1 ap for each round of combat in which the warboss inflicts an unsaved wound, not for each defeated enemy. So after one round of combat it will be +3 strength ap4, after two rounds it will be +4 strength ap3, etc. That's at least two rounds of combat before it really starts to become a useful alternative to the klaw.

It has its uses as a backup weapon, particularly against Necrons, mainly because the wounds you inflict to charge it up do not need to be caused by the Choppa itself, i.e. the warboss can rack up the kills with his power klaw and then break out the Choppa later if and when the need arises. The only real issue I have with this loadout is that it forces you to take the Great Waaagh! detachment, which loses objective secured and the buff to your troops from da lukky stikk.

The problem is that you simply can't replace a power klaw. You do need this high str ap2 attacks. Even if you give big choppas ap3 and rending for free, people would still take PK on a warboss. Cause s10 ap2 is so good.

 koooaei wrote:
The problem is that you simply can't replace a power klaw. You do need this high str ap2 attacks. Even if you give big choppas ap3 and rending for free, people would still take PK on a warboss. Cause s10 ap2 is so good.

This is very true and quite sad since it reinforces the CC weapon blandness in the Ork codex despite it being geared towards bashing people's heads in after softening them up with dakka. Personally I felt that the Big Choppa should just be just one variant amongst many and make it similar to a power weapon with different profiles depending on what type of big choppa it is:

Big Choppa:

- Rippy (as in it has a chainsaw part of it) S:+2 AP: 4, Rending

- 'Dead Ard: S:+1 AP: 3, Strikedown

- Zappy: S: User AP: 2 (Maybe cause haywire on rolls of 6 to hit?)

Then have another weapon which is our equivalent of a Thunder Hammer called a
'Uge Hammer:

S:+3 AP: 3, Concussive

Just let the Warboss (and most units) take a Burna.

I think a generic power weapon would be awesome!

Loafing wrote:
Just let the Warboss (and most units) take a Burna.

that was actually an option - and a regularly taken one - way back when in the Feral Orks list.

 Grimskul wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
The problem is that you simply can't replace a power klaw. You do need this high str ap2 attacks. Even if you give big choppas ap3 and rending for free, people would still take PK on a warboss. Cause s10 ap2 is so good.

This is very true and quite sad since it reinforces the CC weapon blandness in the Ork codex despite it being geared towards bashing people's heads in after softening them up with dakka. Personally I felt that the Big Choppa should just be just one variant amongst many and make it similar to a power weapon with different profiles depending on what type of big choppa it is:

Big Choppa:

- Rippy (as in it has a chainsaw part of it) S:+2 AP: 4, Rending

- 'Dead Ard: S:+1 AP: 3, Strikedown

- Zappy: S: User AP: 2 (Maybe cause haywire on rolls of 6 to hit?)

Then have another weapon which is our equivalent of a Thunder Hammer called a
'Uge Hammer:

S:+3 AP: 3, Concussive

My point is that bosses and nobz in squads of boyz are the only source of reliable high str ap2 weapons other than mek gunz that are static and can't be relied upon to do all the job. Boyz are a backbone of our army and have to be able to deal with or at least cause troubles to anything - even tough 2+ models and vehicles.
However, some extra weapons could be introduced to help out squad nobz. We all know that nobz need something going on for them. So, something like a cheap rending weapon could be fine.

What about giving the PK 2 modes?
d'ed killy mode
and
tear dem up mode.

Ded killy is what it already is S x2 and AP2 unwieldy

team dem up mode is basically S: User AP 3.

So you lose the huge strength bonus but you gain AP3 at Init. but realistically when would that be useful?

Against SME you swing at the same time as them which does you no good except guarantying you get to swing. Against TME you would still use the other mode because you need AP2 and swinging 4-5 times with an AP3 weapon does you zero good against 2+ saves.

unfortunately I don't see an alternative for orks.

I have always thought an AP-R weapon would be interesting. With the R meaning reroll a successful save and maybe rerolling armour pen on vehicles. Kind of a play on the old choppa rule from 3rd/4th edition that limited the save to 4+ (a rule that I hated).

I like the the 2 mode PK idea as well. Maybe add the ability to use a slugga when in Tear Dem Up mode for +1A.