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Would be nice to see human Gue'Vesa I think they where allowed a while back but not in the codex would bring some good close combat to the army.

kylemcl wrote:
Would be nice to see human Gue'Vesa I think they where allowed a while back but not in the codex would bring some good close combat to the army.

There is a Gue'Vesa in IA3. They can only be used in Taros campaigns, but aren't very good.

a good melee could be provided by Tallarn Dog-Soldiers mercs

I really hope for all those nerfs except the nerfs that make no more buffmander. I think Buffmander really brings out a side in HQs that are fun, not the dedicated slaughter house (Daemon Princes.) but a support role to the troops.

I also really want Gue'vesa, I even just purchased some humans to convert for that very hope!

I'd be OK if they just made IG BB with tau.

kylemcl wrote:
Would be nice to see human Gue'Vesa I think they where allowed a while back but not in the codex would bring some good close combat to the army.

You realize that Gue'vesa are Guardsmen, not Space Marines right?

I'd rather if they're going to put in Gue'vesa that they don't make Guard Battle Brothers with Tau or any kind of nonsense. Just add a unit entry to the Codex, give them some kind of special rule where Imperial units have to fire at them before any other Tau infantry or something to that effect.

NauticalKendall wrote:
I'm really scared for my 10k of Tau. I hope the only things changed are the riptide to 200pts base to stop the spam, special weapons for FW's, marker lights -1 cover save instead, and one relic per commander, or two. To make you think if you really want that Swiss Army knife.

I don't see the Riptide going up to 200 points if anything it will stay the same base points cost (as the base platform is perfectly fine) but the upgrades will either change or get more expensive. And regardless I still think people would take 2 or 3 of them no matter the points cost.

And in regards to Support Fire i actually think it makes sense for the Tau because we literally have no close combat capability, do I think it needs to be nerfed? Most definitely, instead of every unit within 6 inches being able to help make it either 1 or D3 units within 6 inches and make it an ability of the Fireblade to actually give him something that will make people want to take him and giving the Support Fire ability a points cost.

 Kanluwen wrote:

kylemcl wrote:
Would be nice to see human Gue'Vesa I think they where allowed a while back but not in the codex would bring some good close combat to the army.

You realize that Gue'vesa are Guardsmen, not Space Marines right?

I'd rather if they're going to put in Gue'vesa that they don't make Guard Battle Brothers with Tau or any kind of nonsense. Just add a unit entry to the Codex, give them some kind of special rule where Imperial units have to fire at them before any other Tau infantry or something to that effect.

Why do you think making IG Battle Brothers with Tau is 'nonsense'? Gue'vesa are largely former PDF and as such what better way to represent them that IG?

Not that it would be possible under current rules. IoM is a single entry in the ally matrix so you'd have to be battle brothers to everyone. Not that Draigostars with Buffmander wouldn't be fun....

Not just PDF, but mutinied gaurd forces as well.

Not necessarily, if the rule specifically stated Battle Brothers with "Codex Astra Millitarium only" then you could do it.

LordBlades wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

kylemcl wrote:
Would be nice to see human Gue'Vesa I think they where allowed a while back but not in the codex would bring some good close combat to the army.

You realize that Gue'vesa are Guardsmen, not Space Marines right?

I'd rather if they're going to put in Gue'vesa that they don't make Guard Battle Brothers with Tau or any kind of nonsense. Just add a unit entry to the Codex, give them some kind of special rule where Imperial units have to fire at them before any other Tau infantry or something to that effect.

Why do you think making IG Battle Brothers with Tau is 'nonsense'? Gue'vesa are largely former PDF and as such what better way to represent them that IG?

1) The armaments of a Planetary Defense Force are not the same as Guard. There is a reason why Cultists have Autoguns and Heavy Stubbers for CSM.
2) Guardsmen are not the same as Planetary Defense Force.
Not to mention that the Tau don't actually fully trust the Gue'vesa, which is why they give them Tau manufactured variations on Imperial gear rather than Tau equivalent equipment.

Co'tor Shas wrote:Not just PDF, but mutinied Guard forces as well.

That is not strictly true. As we saw in the Taros Campaign book, mutinied Guard forces were VERY uncommon. You didn't have whole squads or companies turning traitor, but rather individuals.

So I could see something like a Gue'vesa Squad consisting of PDF troopers with a "veteran" Sergeant which is a traitor Guardsman.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gmaleron wrote:
Not necessarily, if the rule specifically stated Battle Brothers with "Codex Astra Millitarium only" then you could do it.

Yeah, because Tau need access to squadrons of Leman Russes, Valkyries, and the like?

No. Simplest way is to actually put a unit out that is equivalent to the CSM Cultists--but different enough to justify its existence in the Tau Codex.

gmaleron wrote:And in regards to Support Fire i actually think it makes sense for the Tau because we literally have no close combat capability, do I think it needs to be nerfed? Most definitely, instead of every unit within 6 inches being able to help make it either 1 or D3 units within 6 inches and make it an ability of the Fireblade to actually give him something that will make people want to take him and giving the Support Fire ability a points cost.

I have to disagree with making it an ability of the Fireblade. Tying a signature ability like that to an HQ choice is a recipe for disaster.

And honestly, I feel no real sympathy for Tau players who think that it "only makes sense" for them to get the Support Fire ability. It makes sense for practically any army to get it as well.
Imperial Guard should get it because of the fact that they're trained in overlapping fire disciplines, no different than the Tau Empire.
Space Marines(of both flavors!) should get it because of that same fact.
Eldar(again, of both flavors) should get it for the same reason.

I think the only army it really doesn't "make sense" for would be Orks--and that's only because Orks would likely stand there laughing as their buddies get butchered, letting them know that the fight coming their way is gonna be a gud 'un.

Actually, the tau don't manufacture any of their gear, human worlds are allowed to do their own manufacturing, the factories retro-fitted by the tau to run efficently and cleanly, with drones, automation and alike. And the imperium has left enough guard gear behind making it easy for reverse engineering, ect.


And I really don't see what the problem with tau being BB with IG is. More than half of the currently existing armies can ally with them, and has that been so bad?

Also, a significant part of the initial Gue'Vesa were Imperial Guard garrisons left behind by the withdrawing Damocles Gulf Crusade.

I also really don't see any mechanical issues with Tau being BB wuth IG. Do ypu really think somebody would take Leman Russ tanks and Valkyries in a Tau army for any other reason than the fact they think it's fun? Tau has better choices for almost everything IG can offer.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Actually, the tau don't manufacture any of their gear, human worlds are allowed to do their own manufacturing, the factories retro-fitted by the tau to run efficently and cleanly, with drones, automation and alike. And the imperium has left enough guard gear behind making it easy for reverse engineering, ect.

That's when a whole WORLD is absorbed in rapid succession and relatively peaceably. When you're talking about an actual war of conquest?
The Tau provide the equipment, either Tau manufactured variations of Guard/PDF equipment or captured equipment, to their forces.

Read some of the Deathwatch RPG material. It's been explored pretty well there.

And I really don't see what the problem with tau being BB with IG is. More than half of the currently existing armies can ally with them, and has that been so bad?

Really?
You don't see the problem with Tau getting easy access to squadrons of Leman Russ variants with no penalties? Squads of Bullgryn to beef up cover/armor saves for Riptides/Crisis Suits/Broadsides?
Or Techpriests repairing hull points on Tau vehicles?

Face it. Making them BB with IG opens up FAR more issues than you seem to be thinking about, because GW is not going to make it so that the Allies matrix will read "Battle Brothers with Imperial Guard, but you can't take X, Y, or Z as part of the Allied detachment."

LordBlades wrote:
Also, a significant part of the initial Gue'Vesa were Imperial Guard garrisons left behind by the withdrawing Damocles Gulf Crusade.

And?

That doesn't mean they were suddenly loyal to the Tau Empire. Remember that Farsight gave them three options: Join the Tau Empire, become prisoners of war, or get executed.
Most of what the actual Gue'vesa are now is the descendants of those Guardsmen. They're so far removed from the actual Guardsmen who turned traitor(whether for real or simply for the purposes of not dying) that you really might as well just make a new unit.

I also really don't see any mechanical issues with Tau being BB wuth IG. Do ypu really think somebody would take Leman Russ tanks and Valkyries in a Tau army for any other reason than the fact they think it's fun? Tau has better choices for almost everything IG can offer.

What do the Tau have access to which is similar to a squadron of Vendettas? Squadrons of Demolishers? Tempestus Scion Platoons loaded with Melta or Plasma Guns?
How about Guard Platoons or Hardened Veteran Squads loaded with special weapons?

What's wrong with tau getting those, when more than half of the armies currently in existance can. And you know what they best part it, they can do that currently, just at DA level. Even making them simply AoC with IG would be better.

Tau taking Leman Russ squadrons or Bullgryns: what's stopping them from doing so now?

Tech priests reparing hull points on Tau vehicles? Only Tau vehicles that aren't gak are the Tetras (good luck repairing that) and Skyray (which nobody shoots after they fired all missiles first round anyway).

Let's face it, AM are one of the bottom codexes in the game atm.

LordBlades wrote:
Tau taking Leman Russ squadrons or Bullgryns: what's stopping them from doing so now?

Tech priests reparing hull points on Tau vehicles? Only Tau vehicles that aren't gak are the Tetras (good luck repairing that) and Skyray (which nobody shoots after they fired all missiles first round anyway).

Enginseer with 3 Servitors with Servo-Arms are repairing HPs, Weapon Destroyed/Immobilised results on 2+. And the unit will still be able to have two Multi-Meltas, Heavy Bolters, or Plasma Cannons.

Let's face it, AM are one of the bottom codexes in the game atm.

So why are you so desperate to get them as Battle Brothers?

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
What's wrong with tau getting those, when more than half of the armies currently in existance can. And you know what they best part it, they can do that currently, just at DA level. Even making them simply AoC with IG would be better.

Who cares what "half of the armies currently in existence" can do?

Why would you want them to change the Allies level rather than actually giving you a new unit?

Because it better represents gue'vessa without a lot of work or need for massive rebalancing. The simplest solution is often the best.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Because it better represents gue'vessa without a lot of work or need for massive rebalancing. The simplest solution is often the best.

Except it DOESN'T.

The Gue'vesa are not Guardsmen.
They're not trained the same way, they don't have the same organization, they don't have the same armaments, or anything that makes Guardsmen into Guardsmen.

Why would you not want an actual, dedicated Gue'vesa unit within your book?

Because gue'vessa are gaurdsmen, or equivalent to. They have vehcilces.They have tanks.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Because gue'vessa are gaurdsmen, or equivalent to. They have vehcilces.They have tanks.

This pretty much.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Because gue'vessa are gaurdsmen, or equivalent to. They have vehcilces.They have tanks.

In some circumstances, certainly.
But not anywhere near to the extent to make it so that you just Battle Brothers the Guard in. Not to mention that the tanks aren't the same either. Some of the mentioned tank variants utilize Tau weaponry rather than Imperial weaponry.

The Gue'vesa are NOT the same thing as Imperial Guardsmen. They are NOT equipped anywhere near to the same level, and the Tau do not actually trust them anywhere near enough to equip them to the same level as the Imperial Guard.

The Gue'vesa that have been seen post-Damocles Crusade are actually light infantry armed with Imperial style equipment who serve as infiltrators/insurgents for the Tau Empire when fighting on Imperial held worlds or as scouts/pathfinders when fighting on Tau worlds. Not to mention that those individuals are also third or fourth generation children of the initial Guardsmen or Planetary Defense Force members who turned traitor. Those individuals probably were never trained to fight in the Guard style but rather are trained to fight by the Fire Caste in such a way that they work best with the Tau Empire's forces.

And where is this information from, may I ask?

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
And where is this information from, may I ask?

Deathwatch RPG material, the initial Tau codex, various BL stories, etc.

Remember that the rules that initially were published for Gue'vesa(one of two times where they got OFFICIAL rules) as a kind of "Chapter Approved" article back on the way old GW website when the Tau first got their book were intended for Gue'vesa during the Damocles Gulf Crusade/immediately after.
The second time Gue'vesa got rules was during the Doctrines book, which was in a White Dwarf and an issue of Black Gobbo on the web. IIRC they had Sharpshooters, Light Infantry, Heavy Weapon Platoons, Special Weapon Squads, and Cyber Enhancement.

Regardless, even in your description and the cited sources, they are more than a single basic unit.

If you are talking about he deathwatch main book, it mostly talks about tau forces, I don't see anything about gue'vessa, and From what I recall, I don't even remeber gue'vessa being mentioed in the first tau codex. I'll probably go dig it up when I get back to my room.

LordBlades wrote:
Regardless, even in your description and the cited sources, they are more than a single basic unit.

Who said anything about a "single basic unit"?

I said make them a UNIT CHOICE. You're aware that units have upgrade options right?

Look, I get that you want to add in Gue'vesa. But simply making Guardsmen into Battle Brothers does nothing.

The Guard book has been suffering from being "the go-to Allies book" for Imperial factions for a long time. Because of that, they're too timid to do any drastic changes.
Adding yet another Battle Brother option for Guard in the form of Tau hurts Guard players because it becomes ANOTHER faction that Guard have synergy with at the cost of Guard being pretty "Meh" by themselves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
If you are talking about he deathwatch main book, it mostly talks about tau forces, I don't see anything about gue'vessa, and From what I recall, I don't even remeber gue'vessa being mentioned in the first tau codex. I'll probably go dig it up when I get back to my room.

Check the two page story spread in Codex: Tau.

Harmon Delphi(the robed man who meets Palmatus and Captain Taelos) is a Guard deserter. Also pg 8.

I don't think them being allies is a problem for IG, especialy since allying has only been a problem since 6th. I mean, eldar has been using what is pretty much the same codex since 2nd edition.

So because they tend to be allies with other Imperial factions they can't be BB with a race that would make sense based on the current lore? Fail to see the sense in that. Why I suggested a Formation that gave you a limited FOC from Codex Astra Militarium rather then just be BB. And disagree that only IoM forces would hate the traitors and get Preferred Enemy, they left the Imperium for a reason.

And how in any way shape or form is attaching an ability to an HQ choice a disaster? Space Marine Chapter Masters get Orbital Bombardment, Ethereals have their abilities, IG have Orders how would giving the Fireblades the "Support Fire" rule be negative?

Missed that, the story does allude to guard rebelling, but it has nothing about the make up of squads or organization. And I can't find anything on page 8. Perhaps you mean a different page?

 Kanluwen wrote:

LordBlades wrote:
Regardless, even in your description and the cited sources, they are more than a single basic unit.

Who said anything about a "single basic unit"?

I said make them a UNIT CHOICE. You're aware that units have upgrade options right?

Look, I get that you want to add in Gue'vesa. But simply making Guardsmen into Battle Brothers does nothing.

How many uogrades can ypu cram into a unit to accurarely represent Gue'vesa? Just look at Kroot squads. They fail to represent all Kroit can bring to the table despite upgrades.

Personally I feel making Guard BB gives us a closer approximation of Gue'vesathan a single unit, unless you give it a silly amount of options.