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Ok, so I've been using vallejo model color, model air, game color and game air for about just over a year now. They seem great but I'm still falling short of the quality I want. I've been thinking about citadel but simply not sure. I'm not table top gaming, I'm going for show pieces. I just had four pieces in the crystal brush show last week and want to up my game.

I need hardcore insight here as I will end up buying a full range of paints and not a few pots.

Thanks everyone!!!

In what way are they not up to the quality you want? Vallejo are some of the best paints available.

Vallejo are typically considered among the best quality paints, I know that some people like tamiya. I've used P3 and Citadel's ranges extensively. Between the two, I prefer Citadel's line.

Yeah, other than their washes and some technicals in which I would say Citadel is far ahead, Vallejo GC seems to be of better quantity and quality overall. That is based mostly on personal experience however.

i use P3, and couldn't be happier...
having tried many other brands out there, none of them feel as smooth or have the slightly satin finish i like to have on my minis...
after P3, every other brand just "feels" wrong when i paint with them, and looks way too matte for my comic book style...
plus, i feel like i can't really go wrong with a paint range that was designed from the ground up by Mike McVey, and made to emulate the original 90's Citadel paints (which are still as good as new, 25 years later)...

if you are looking for a more matte finish with your painting style, i would try out Scale 75...
they have an awesome color palette...

cheers
jah

I like the satin-ish finish that the new Citadel range has, similar to P3. The older Citadel paints left a lot to be desired. Citadel is similar to P3, but IMO requires considerably more thinning.

Reaper Master Series. I have a lot of vallejo and have no problems with any of it (apart from one or two colours), but I have begun falling in love with Reaper. Often thin enough to paint straight out of the bottle the paints also have a finish that's more matte than Vallejo's Model Colour Line. Also have a humungous range and a really easy to use triad system.

 sockwithaticket wrote:
Reaper Master Series. I have a lot of vallejo and have no problems with any of it (apart from one or two colours), but I have begun falling in love with Reaper. Often thin enough to paint straight out of the bottle the paints also have a finish that's more matte than Vallejo's Model Colour Line. Also have a humungous range and a really easy to use triad system.

I have been wondering about Reaper, since their paints were originally formulated by a guy I used to work for, and put a lot of input into the creation of their paints when they were Genesis. Genesis Paints were pretty much THE paints (Citadel's and Ral Partha's first line of paints were made by Genesis. Technically Al Pare, who is now retired).

But I have a few paints from Reaper that I tend to prefer to Vallejo.

I have a lot of problems with the lack of consistency with the Valejo paints. Some of them are so thick that the paint stands up in the tray, while others are so dilute that they run all over the place (and don't give a good finish).

It is getting to be time to think about buying new paints, since most of my primary paints are running out (White, Black, Flesh, Red, Dark Brown, Brass, Iron, . . .). And I think I will check out Reaper instead of buying new Vallejo.

MB

I've said it in other threads but I'll say it again, I find all the water based acrylics to be pretty similar. Especially when you start using mediums to get the effects you want.

If you're looking to mix things up a bit, you could try alcohol based acrylics like Tamiya and Gunze, but the ranges are much smaller and I hate the glass pots. I find the alcohol based acrylics are better for airbrushing but I don't really like them for hairy brush painting, though I will admit I haven't tried them with retarder as of yet, retarder might make them better for hairy brush painting.

I've increasingly been playing around with enamels (mostly Testors Model Master) and realising that other than the slow drying and strong solvents they can potentially be better for achieving high quality results. They airbrush smoother and when it comes to hairy brush painting they blend a lot better and are just a whole lot more flexible. You can lay down a colour and for several hours you are able to reactivate the paint using enamel thinners, which really opens the door to some interesting effects and smoother blending/glazing/filtering.

But yeah, the slow drying and inhaling solvents isn't great so it's something to try out before jumping in with both feet.

I think the idea that any one range is consistently better than the others is a fallacy. They all have good and bad paints in their range

Plenty of Vallejo colours are fantastic and better than present-day Citadel; their tinny bitz in particular. some others are abysmal; their pale yellow, whatever it's called, is completely useless, watery with no pigment, as is their flesh wash.

Likewise, AP have some terrific colours, especially their matt black - incredibly smooth and fine - and gunmetal, just like the old boltgun metal, while their dark tone is a perfect replacement for badab black. But their daemonic yellow is pitiful.

P3 are lovely but very specific; I use their yellows, which are nice, consistent shades, but need lots of (thin) coats for good coverage.

Citadel still have a lot of good colours; I've tried all the alternatives, and their washes are still the best. But odd ones - the brush on black primer, forgotten it's name - simply don't work!

Why limit yourself to one range of paints. All the ranges have "good" and "bad" paints.

Personally I use paints from just about every range. For reds and bright silvers and a bunch of others I love what Vallejo has to offer. For golds there is nothing that compares (that I have found yet) to the Vallejo Alcohol based acrylics.

For smooth full of depth browns and greens P3 is my favorite.

The point is find what paints you like and don't get hung up on what range they are from.

Wow! Thanks for the info everyone! I guess I'm afraid to sink a ton of money into paints and not like them. I've been 99% happy with Vallejo but a few colors are AWFUL. The FEW pots from Citadel I have are good, glazes and technical stuff but they are expensive and less paint and horrific pot design. Not even sure how to get them safely and neatly into my airbrush...lol

I have a FLGS that sells all ranges in singles, so I might just have to pick out all the colors I want from each range and simply run with it.

After competing in Crystal Brush this year, I got to see some amazing work up close and now I know what I need to do to step up my game. I just don't want to cheap out or waste time. I guess brushes are my next big decision...lol

 Chachi wrote:
I have a FLGS that sells all ranges in singles, so I might just have to pick out all the colors I want from each range and simply run with it.

Best way to go about it, honestly. As you've seen with Vallejo, different colors within a given range are liable to have individual quirks. Mixing up your stockpile between several brands gives you a wider range of colors and consistencies to work with, as well as providing invaluable insight when it comes time to make a big investment (like a $100-200 briefcase set), should you ever feel the need.

Whats the price range on vallejo paints? I use citadel cos thats whats easyest to get for me but have been interested in others.

 e.earnshaw wrote:
Whats the price range on vallejo paints? I use citadel cos thats whats easyest to get for me but have been interested in others.

Prices from Wayland (so not full r.r.p)
Vallejo ~ £1.89 for 17ml
Citadel ~ £2.16 for 12ml

The actual unit price isnt a huge deal breaking difference, but when you add in getting about 40% more volume and a better bottle. Most would lean to Vallejo. Qaulity... merh Both great, can't pick too much fault with either for quality of paint.

Whether you like dropper or fliptop makes a big difference too. If you like droppers, don't buy Citadel/P3, unless you enjoy transferring paint.

Personally, my primary paint of choice is Citadel. I think I paint an awful lot of models, and even so, the amount of paint I actually go through is tiny, especially relative to what I spend on the models.

For one of the reasons Jah likes P3, I prefer Citadel: P3 has a slightly longer drying time -- which can be useful (for things like blending, or fine details on small brushes), but more often than not, I am doing multiple thin coats, and I want to paint the next coat as quickly as possible. When I paint yellow or red features, for example, there might be 5+ thin coats, and I find it more efficient to do all 5 coats on one model before going to the next.

Incidentally, I don't believe the choice has to be one brand or the other. In my everyday painting, I often use P3 Thamar Black (instead of Abbadon), I always use VMC Silver for studs, etc.

I'm gonna just get as much as I can afford from multiple lines and just go with it. Thank you to everyone here for the helpful insight!! Yeah, these aren't cheap when buying a lot. But I wanted this hobby so I take the good with the bad I suppose.

The only issue that I can think of with P3 paints is compatibility. It's easy to find an equivalent GW/Valejo color, but P3 is harder to match up (as far as I know, that is).

That's true, youidiotkid. Main reason being that P3 simply doesn't have the same colors. It works against you if you rely heavily on paint "recipes" and tutorials, but is also why many people that use P3 love the range - it contains many colors you simply can't find anywhere else.

VGC was designed to mimic the previous line of Citadel paints in color and name (as much as possible). New Citadel was designed to replace old Citadel - not all identical to the old colors, and a few new additions, but mostly quite similar. P3 may have borne similarities to the old old Citadel, but by now they're one of the few ranges that doesn't seem to particularly care about conveniently aligning their colors with those of other brands. Lineage and working properties aside, they're sort of an oddball... but not in a bad way.

If you're an army painter for gaming or a neophyte looking to learn the ropes for anything other than WarmaHordes, I wouldn't ever recommend P3. If, like the OP, you've already got some experience under your belt and are painting as its own exercise, they certainly seem worth a shot.

FLGS here has just about every paint range I can think of. Which makes me wonder how old they are. Lol. I have yet to try P3 and Reaper. Heard good things. I'm in no way a recipe or army painter. I do one offs for competition. Still new to it though with around a solid year or so under my belt.

@Talys: that is two times in one week that you have name-dropped me, and both times you've been off-base in your assumptions of what i would say about my paints...
i have never once, in ten years of using P3 paints, mentioned the paint's drying time on a model...
i've never even thought about it...
i do, however, like the old-school flip-top pots, that keep the paint from drying out in the pot...
like i said, i have 25-year-old Citadel paints, in the same pot style as P3, that are still as good as new, while the next three generations of Citadel are as dry as the desert floor...
the main thing that i consistently praise about P3 is their smoothness, and the ease of coverage...

@youidiotkid: you are correct, in that it is more of a challenge to match P3 colors to GW paint schemes, but i enjoy the challenge of matching the 'Eavy Metal paintjobs using P3 paints...
custom mixing colors has made me a better, less lazy painter, by forcing me to mix, and thus achieving more subtle transitions between layers than i used to...

@oadie: you hit the nail on the head...
i absolutely love the unique tones of P3 paints...
Coal Black, Greatcoat Grey, Sanguine Base, Arcane Blue, Trollblood Base, and many others are such beautiful colors, that are not quite matched by other paint ranges...
start thinning some Greatcoat Grey on a palette, and you see the lovely blue undertone, or the green in the grey of Cryx Bane Base...
some mad alchemy went into Mike's designs of these colors...

@Chachi: if you are an airbrusher, flip-top lids may not be the best route to go with paints...
personally, i paint straight out of the pot most of the time, and love the little well in my lids to dip into...
if i were an airbrusher, instead of a hairy stick user, i would be all over Scale 75's range of paint, since they come in droppers...
Badger's Miniature line looks good for the airbrush...
Jen Haley does amazing things with Reaper paints, where their matte look really works for her naturalistic painting style...
Angel does great stuff with Vallejo for the Infinity boxart...

so, yeah, it is easy to see why the wide range of paints to choose from could be confusing...
too much candy in the shop!!!
have fun experimenting, and finding what works best for you...

cheers
jah

@jah - you have mentioned many times that you prefer the slower drying time of P3 paints (as well as the smoothness and coverage).

While I don't particularly agree with the smoothness and coverage (I think P3 is good, just not particularly exceptional), I think it's factual that P3 has a longer drying time than citadel or Vallejo. It comes in handy when 2-brush blending with water P3 style and it's nice for wet on wet blending too. It's also nice for writing or tiny brushes sans drying readers and mediums. I agree that some of the colors are distinctive and a good addition.

I'm sorry if it bothers you that I mentioned your name (twice), really, regarding the same thing. We happen to respond to these threads and we obviously disagree as to which paints we champion. I do respect your opinion, and I find it mildly amusing that we post the same thing in different words 4 times a month . All good; I'll not mention your preferences on this topic in the future so as not to misrepresent your opinion.

Unlike you, I am not a professional painter. I don't think I'd ever cut it, because while I love miniatures and hobby, I'd have to paint like, 100x faster to make what I'd consider a living, and that's just not happening in this lifetime Besides, just about any model I paint, I'd be unwilling to part with, even if someone were crazy enough to pay me what I know my time is worth doing my day job, and that would be a problem, LOL.

@oadie - yeah, if you want to paint codex GW armies (which is my thing, mostly), GW or Vallejo paints are a whole lot easier to deal with than P3. I have always wished that P3 would expand their range to at least include common colors, to supplement their unique ones. For example, Skorne and Khador red are both nice shades of red, but neither is a pure red. There are many shades of green, but not a good cameo set. The purples are lacking.... et cetera.

@Talys: yeah, the paints last longer in the pots...
like i said, i've never even thought about the drying time of paint ON a model, which is why your comment seemed to come out of leftfield to me...

i don't do 2-brush blending, or wet blending, so those aspects of P3 are pretty much lost on me, but like i said, i do really like their smoothness, coverage, and unique tones...
i just use a very simple, darkest to lightest, layering technique (where every previous layer is completely dry before i apply the next, brighter layer), and the way the paint behaves seems to suit my painting style better than any other brand...

i don't really understand this thing about Citadel or Vallejo being better for Codex schemes...
i make my living painting Space Marines, and don't feel hampered in any way by my choice of paints...
do you feel like i paint Space Marines wrong???

i understand if you prefer not to mix custom colors...
that's a personal choice...
i used to paint with the same approach, but once i decided to step-up my game to win competitions, i found that i had to mix colors anyway to get smoother transitions between layers...
the GW painting technique is great for armies, but is limiting in competition, where the stark jumps in color of the line highlighting style are not going to stand-up to a smoother zenithal highlighting style...
thus i started developing a hybrid French (Rackham)/'Eavy Metal style for display/competiton quality results...
mixing colors is the only way that my laying technique can compete with airbrushed zenithal smoothness...

cheers
jah

 jah-joshua wrote:
i don't really understand this thing about Citadel or Vallejo being better for Codex schemes...
i make my living painting Space Marines, and don't feel hampered in any way by my choice of paints...
do you feel like i paint Space Marines wrong???

i understand if you prefer not to mix custom colors...

That's basically it, being able to paint a model without mixing custom colours can be quite nice. I always aim to get as close to the colour I want in order to avoid mixing. Especially when it comes to painting whole armies where I want one model to match the next model but might struggle to match the exact mix.

It's why I own approximately 50 bazillion different paints when I could mix the vast majority of them if I wanted

Even if you are doing blending and stuff where you need to mix the transitional colours, knowing that you start from colour X and blend to colour Y and then start mixing in colour Z can be nice.

 jah-joshua wrote:

i don't really understand this thing about Citadel or Vallejo being better for Codex schemes...
i make my living painting Space Marines, and don't feel hampered in any way by my choice of paints...
do you feel like i paint Space Marines wrong???

i understand if you prefer not to mix custom colors...
that's a personal choice...

It's a question of continuity and volume. I have an awful lot of factions and terrain that I have painted over 20+ years.

So my thing is: if I want to add one more Wall of Martyrs piece, or add one more Blood Angel squad, or one more Beil-Tan Fire Prism do I want to just buy another pot of paint, or do I want to mix it up? If I mix it up, how much will it look like the rest of the army? Will the third Stormraven for Angel's Fury, fit in with the other 2? These aspects are very important to me, because I do game pretty much all my pieces at some point.

Now, the other thing is, what is the advantage to mixing a custom color? Really, it's to be different. But, really, I don't want my Space Wolves to look a color other than Russ Grey, and I don't want my Ultramarines to be a color other than Mccragge Blue. I love the fluff

I don't mind mixing custom colors; I do this all the time when I'm layering and blending, and for independent characters. But I don't like to do it on armies that will eventually have 200+ models in them. There are some colors that are brutally hard (impossible?) to mix too -- the ones that are fluorescent that GW and Citadel have. If they can be mixed, I have no idea how. Also, there are the Citadel Technical paints and Vallejo special effect paints/mediums that just make things that would be hard, really easy.

 jah-joshua wrote:

i used to paint with the same approach, but once i decided to step-up my game to win competitions, i found that i had to mix colors anyway to get smoother transitions between layers...
the GW painting technique is great for armies, but is limiting in competition, where the stark jumps in color of the line highlighting style are not going to stand-up to a smoother zenithal highlighting style...
thus i started developing a hybrid French (Rackham)/'Eavy Metal style for display/competiton quality results...
mixing colors is the only way that my laying technique can compete with airbrushed zenithal smoothness...

You are absolutely right. I'm sure that I would do the same thing if I wanted to compete, but I have no desire to do so. I don't have anyone to beat except myself -- I would like next year's models to look better than last! Or maybe learn some tricks to do a different effect, or something faster, et cetera.

I also don't spend enough time per model to be a serious competition winner. This is my idea of incredibly awesome (the 2014 Golden Demon Open Silver):



I believe the painter said he spent hundreds of hours on it. While I absolutely admire the model and the effort, given the choice between another army and a single (supremely awesome) model, I choose army. Not that I'm anywhere near talented enough to paint that anyhow -- at least I don't think so, and I don't think I'll ever find out. Because... I would really have more fun buying and painting a Thunderhawk or Scorpion, and just having fun is where it's at for me

@Talys: you still don't seem to comprehend what i am saying, or we are speaking two different languages...

i don't mix custom colors to be different...
i mix custom colors to be a better painter...
my whole point was that i enjoy the challenge of recreating the 'Eavy Metal schemes with my P3 paints...
the act of trying to match their colors, with a different paint range, is that it makes me think more about what i am doing with color, and why...
it also forces me out of my comfort zone, making my painting better...

i record my ratios in a paint journal, and use the back of a brush to get the same amount of paint out of the lid every time...
i don't have any problem recreating my colors each time i need them...
i just make sure that the drops on my tile are all the same size, and my ratios do the rest for me...

to be perfectly blunt, i don't buy Citadel because i think they are crap these days...
i think the lids suck, the paints dry out way too fast in the pot, and the paint does not behave in the way i like mine to...
i have been a fan of GW for 30 years, and when their first paint line came out, it replaced my Ral Partha paints immediately, and are still perfect today...

the next generation, with the black screw-tops, is where the problems started with the paint drying in the pot...
i loved the colors (Midnight Blue, Scaley Green, Scab Red, Ghost Grey, and such, were awesome tones), and tolerated the pots because i felt they were the best paints on the market, at that time...
we actually painted all of the original Warmachine schemes with this range of colors, with Mike McVey designing custom mixes for the different faction schemes...
for example, the dark Menoth red/maroon started life as a mix of Scab Red and Dark Angels Green, which is now Sanguine Base...
then we added some Bleached Bone into the mix, and had a highlight color, which is now Sanguine Highlight...

the black flip-top generation after that dried out even faster than the screw-tops, so when P3 paints came around, it was like Mana from the painting gods...
the new generation of pots, and the third reboot of the color range to go along with it, is not something i am interested in giving my money to...

there is nothing that would make me want to invest in Citadel paints these days...
the same goes for Reaper and Vallejo too, though...
i dislike droppers, and don't like the finish of Reaper paints...
i really don't like that my few Vallejo Air Metals have gone all solid in the bottle, and some of their paints i have bought arrived pre-ruined, just being solid chunks of paint in the bottle, and completely unusable...

the plain and simple fact is that i have tried many paint ranges, and none of them work for me the way that P3 works for me...
i enjoy my preference, and am happy to shout it to the world...
that doesn't mean that anyone has to agree with me...

cheers
jah

@jah - well, you said you wanted to mix paints to achieve colors and effects otherwise not possible. You can't take that position and then also say you don't mix colors to get be different than colors straight out of the pot. But whatever, I get that you like mixing equivalent and nonequivalent colors.

I'm real happy for you that you find mixing bottles of paint to derive standard colors as interesting and an advancement of skill. For me, this is not the case -- if I want a color that isn't available out of the pot (to fix a stray brush stroke, for instance), so be it. But there is no way I'm going to take 2 or 3 P3 paints to mix Mephiston Red, or Warpstone Glow if I don't have to.

I mean, other than maybe not getting it just right, it isn't any more economical (not in a meaningful way, if at all), and more importantly, my time is both limited and valuable, so I would prefer to spend it modeling or painting (or playing) rather than mixing something I can just buy.

When the current fliptops came out from GW, I disliked them, but I like them more now. They keep any dried up paint out of the bottle, and really, all you have to do is pop off the led and clean the neck once in a while if the paint remains unused.

If P3 had a wider range, it would have the potential of being my primary range. If Vallejo made fliptops, that would work too. But as it is, neither is the case -- GW is the most comprehensive fliptop range, so it is my favorite. In the same way, if GW made airbrush dropper paints, I would probably abandon VMA/VGA.

Also, I find P3 washes terrible compared to GW ones, and the technical paints are pretty special.

Very fascinating thread.

I have to say, that to me, the things that can "take it to the next level" I would rate the following in importance.

1 - skill and patience (technique, methods, etc.)
2 - quality and types of brushes (kolinsky sable all the way)
3 - knowledge and use of additives (glazes, mediums, inks washes, drying retarder, etc.).
4 - specific range of high quality paint.*

Compared to the other factors above, I would really say the total impact of p3 vs. citadel vs. vallejo are pretty minor.

I own and have used pretty much every paint range mentioned in this thread - and compared to my slowly advancing skill or use of other things (better brushes, using glazes, inks, etc.) the paint range has had less of an impact.

just another thought.
I

@Talys: where did i say that i mix paints for colors and effects otherwise not possible???

i said i mix paints for smoother transitions between tones, and to recreate 'Eavy Metal schemes using P3 paints...
other than that, i paint straight out of the pot...

are you willfully trying to misunderstand me, or just being obtuse for the sake of having an argument???
i doesn't concern me which paints you use, man, and i doesn't concern me what your personal motivation for painting is...
there is no need for you to justify to me why you like Citadel paints...
i posted in this thread to share what i like, and it has turned into a complete run-around...
paint what you like, with what you like, however you like to do it...

personally, i love using my P3 Armor Wash and Flesh Wash, and the inks are beautiful...
if you don't like them, that doesn't bother me any...
i also have no need for technical paints, as i can make verdigris and rust just fine without Citadel...
if you like them, that's cool...

i don't see why we are even arguing about paint brands at all...
i'm not telling you that you are doing it wrong...
i don't like to argue such subjective things, or say negative things about any aspect of the hobby, but you are really pushing me into a corner here...
honestly, there is no enjoyment for me in reading your posts, so i'm just going to go paint...

cheers
jah

@jah - You are right about one thing: this is a silly argument. I'm not trying to be argumentative. Have fun mixing up codex colors!

Peace, man.