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The Void

Man what is up with Indiana recently?

http://www.wncn.com/story/28664509/first-woman-in-us-sentenced-for-killing-a-fetus

Short Version: Indian woman has a miscarriage and seeks medical treatment, ends up doing 20 years. Damn it's like every horror story from the pro-choice people come true.

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Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

What is the termination limit in the US.

Over here if a child is aborted post a 24 weeks it is considered murder, unless the health of the mother is a at stake.

This has long been considered a reasonable compromise.

However a miscarriage is not an abortion, for this case to make any sense the court must have decided it was an induced abortion.

However was this a miscarriage, or a premature birth. If it was a miscarriage no crime was committed. The defendant claimed to have had a miscarriage but the court has considered it a premature birth and subsequent neglect.

The article is missing something.



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Leerstetten, Germany

It's also quite amazing that she was charged with, and found guilty of, two separate crimes that aren't really compatible.

She was charged and convicted of killing a fetus, and she was also charged and convicted of neglecting an infant.

Either she killed the fetus and never delivered an infant, or she neglected an infant after it was born and therefore didn't kill a fetus.

That state is making Oklahoma look better every day
   
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oz

It's being discussed on reddit, apparently she self aborted and dumped it in a rubbish bin or something i dunno but whatever evidence it was and the circumstances jury decided to prosecute or however it wworks
   
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The Void

A miscarriage is not an abortion.

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According to the NBC story the prosecutors are saying the baby wasn't stillborn, and that it was alive and she threw it into the dumpster where it eventually perished. That is how you end up with neglect and killing a fetus.

This apparently happened sometime in 2013 but is now making the rounds on the news.

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The Void

She was just sentenced I believe. If the baby was alive and viable, it wouldn't be killing a fetus, it would be killing a baby, which would just be murder.

However I did skim reddit and the top comment has some valuable information.

http://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/30yu7e/indianapolis_first_woman_in_us_sentenced_for/

On June 10, Patel text messaged her friend about ordering abortion pills from an “international pharmacy,” and when the friend asked Patel three more times to see a doctor, she replied, “I’d rather not even go to a doc. I just want to get this over with,” Herring said.
Then on July 13, Patel text messaged her friend, “Just lost the baby. I’m gonna clean up the bathroom and then go to Moe’s.” Note: Moe's is the name of the restaurant her parents own. Also, THIS TEXT WAS SENT THE DAY BEFORE SHE WENT TO THE HOSPITAL.
That’s where investigators have said they ultimately found the baby, in a dumpster, wrapped in plastic bags.
Her friend also repeatedly urged her to go to a doctor starting in April, but she refused. I think this adds a layer to the conversation and wanted to mention it because these these text message were not mentioned in this article or many of the other articles I've read within the past few days. Only our local media seems to have actually shared the content of these text messages. I suspect they are a major reason why the jury chose to convict.


So I'll eat an appetizer of crow at least.

I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long


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http://www.ncsl.org/research/health/fetal-homicide-state-laws.aspx

Indiana Ind. Code Ann. § 35-41-1-25 defines serious bodily injury as bodily injury that causes the loss of a fetus.
Ind. Code Ann. § 35-42-1-3 defines voluntary manslaughter as a person who knowingly or intentionally kills a fetus that has attained viability while acting under sudden heat and provides penalties.
Ind. Code Ann. § 35-42-1-4 defines involuntary manslaughter to include a person who kills a fetus that has attained viability while committing or attempting to commit specified felonies that pose a risk of serious bodily injury, specified misdemeanors that pose a risk of serious bodily injury or battery. The law was amended in 2010 by Ind. Acts, P.L. 7 (SB 71) to include a violation of Ind. Code Ann. 9-30-5-1 et seq., which define operating a vehicle while intoxicated. The law refers to Ind. Code Ann. § 16-18-2-365, which defines viability as the ability of a fetus to live outside the mother's womb.
Ind. Code Ann. § 35-42-1-6 specifies that a person who knowingly or intentionally terminates a human pregnancy with an intention other than to produce a live birth or to remove a dead fetus commits feticide; the law does not apply to an abortion. The law was amended in 2009 to change feticide from a Class C to a Class B felony. (2009 Ind. Acts, P.L. 40, SB 236)
Ind. Code Ann. § 35-42-2-1.5 defines aggravated battery as a person who knowingly or intentionally inflicts injury on a person that causes the loss of a fetus.
Ind. Code Ann. § 35-50-2-9(b)(16) allows the state to seek either a death sentence or a sentence of life imprisonment without parole for murder by alleging the victim of the murder was pregnant and the murder resulted in the intentional killing of a fetus that has attained viability.
Ind. Code Ann. § 35-50-2-16 (2009) allows the state to seek an additional fixed term of imprisonment if a person, while committing or attempting to commit murder, caused the termination of a pregnancy. Prosecution of the murder or attempted murder and the enhancement of the penalty for that crime does not require proof that the person committing or attempting to commit the murder had knowledge or should have had knowledge that the victim was pregnant or that the defendant intended to cause the termination of a pregnancy. The additional consecutive term of imprisonment may be between six and 20 years. (2009 Ind. Acts, P.L. 40, SB 236)


There is no law against having a miscarriage.

http://www.wndu.com/home/headlines/Patel-child-neglect-sentencing-pushed-back-295224821.html
ST. JOSEPH COUNTY, Ind. -- The sentencing of Purvi Patel, who was charged with child neglect, has been pushed back to later in March.

Purvi Patel, 33, made headlines back in July 2013 when her baby's body was found in a dumpster.

She was convicted of using abortion drugs she bought online without a prescription to terminate a secret pregnancy.

But a drug designed to deal with a fetus the "size of a jellybean" didn't work at her advanced stage of pregnancy.

The child neglect charge carries a maximum of 50 years behind bars. The feticide charge carries a maximum of 20 years.

Neither has a mandatory minimum sentence.

The sentencing is expected to take place on March 30.


http://www.wndu.com/home/headlines/Purvi-Patel-sentencing-set-for-Monday-297949321.html
ST. JOSEPH COUNTY, Ind. -- Since her dead newborn baby was found in a Mishawaka dumpster in July of 2013, Purvi Patel has been out on bond.

Today, she was taken into custody and ordered to start serving a 20 year executed sentence on child neglect and feticide charges.

In this case, prison was an option, but not a requirement.

While the defense argued for home detention or community corrections, prosecutors warned that would diminish the seriousness of the crime and the age of the victim. “All cases involving child victims are challenging,” said Deputy Prosecutor Mark Roule after today’s sentencing hearing. “I have been, I’m in my 13th year. There are obviously officers that have been doing it a lot longer and the cases with children and particularly the cases with babies are the ones that people remember. They’re the ones that may wake you up in the middle of the night.”

Patel had no criminal history and she lives with, and cares for her parents and infirm grandparents in Granger. Still, the State of Indiana imposes regulations on abortions and it was argued that Patel ignored them for all the wrong reasons.

“You know she lived in a nice home. Had a Cadillac SRX vehicle, so she was not an indigent person who could not afford medical care,” said Roule.

Yet Patel never went to a doctor about a pregnancy she tried to keep to herself, and tried to end by herself with prescription abortion drugs she purchased off the internet.

When that attempted abortion instead resulted in a live birth, Patel “treated the child, literally, as a piece of trash,” said St. Joseph Superior Court Judge Elizabeth Hurley, who said Patel had “abused her position of trust.”

No one is condoning what happened. No one’s condoning the actions, the dumpster and that,” said Rev. Marie Siroky who attended today’s hearing. “But I think the other part you heard from the judge and from the prosecutor, what they said, they felt she ‘was thinking,’ no one knows what anybody is thinking.”

Rev. Siroky thinks the Patel case sends a dangerous message at a time when the availability of abortion pills has increased on the internet, and the number of abortion clinics in Indiana keeps dwindling. “And we may be very close to getting only two abortion clinics in the state, or in two cities, Indianapolis and Bloomington. Long waiting periods, this is a set up for this to happen.”

Sue Ellen Braunlin is with the Indiana Religious Coalition for Reproductive Justice who has been closely watching the Patel case. She claims it marks just the second time in Indiana history that a law written to protect pregnant women from third party violence, has been used to prosecute women trying to abort. “The expanded application of the feticide laws, it will go on to criminalize women who have problems with their pregnancy or who intend to end their pregnancy on their own.”

Judge Hurley actually sentenced Patel to 30 years on the child neglect charge and six years on the Feticide count. Both sentences will run concurrently. 10 years of the child neglect sentence was suspended, and five years of probation added to the mix. Patel’s effective sentence of 20 years will be served under a set of old guidelines that allow for one day’s worth of good time credit for each day served. That means Patel’s time behind bars could be trimmed to as little as 10 years.

 
   
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So will she get a plea deal requiring sterilization?
   
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Damn, the U.S. are weird. Would anyone here defend this sentence?

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When that attempted abortion instead resulted in a live birth, Patel “treated the child, literally, as a piece of trash,” said St. Joseph Superior Court Judge Elizabeth Hurley, who said Patel had “abused her position of trust.”


That is not a miscarriage, that's actual murder.
   
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The Great State of Texas

 Orlanth wrote:
What is the termination limit in the US.

Over here if a child is aborted post a 24 weeks it is considered murder, unless the health of the mother is a at stake.

This has long been considered a reasonable compromise.

However a miscarriage is not an abortion, for this case to make any sense the court must have decided it was an induced abortion.

However was this a miscarriage, or a premature birth. If it was a miscarriage no crime was committed. The defendant claimed to have had a miscarriage but the court has considered it a premature birth and subsequent neglect.

The article is missing something.



In Indiana its evidently 25 weeks (6 months) and she tripped that.
So she had a baby and dumped it in the dumpster. Mmm.

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 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Damn, the U.S. are weird. Would anyone here defend this sentence?

Which part of the sentence are you having difficulty with?

 
   
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Leerstetten, Germany

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Damn, the U.S. are weird. Would anyone here defend this sentence?

Which part of the sentence are you having difficulty with?


My main problem is the fact that she is guilty of neglecting a living breathing infant after it was born even though she had also already killed it while it was still a fetus.

Maybe the law is just really crappy at using medical terminology, but this seems like something that isn't possible.
   
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 d-usa wrote:
My main problem is the fact that she is guilty of neglecting a living breathing infant after it was born even though she had also already killed it while it was still a fetus.

Maybe the law is just really crappy at using medical terminology, but this seems like something that isn't possible.

That's a quarrel with the law v medical terminology, not the sentence.
It sounds as though this is the law she was charged under;
Ind. Code Ann. § 35-42-1-6 specifies that a person who knowingly or intentionally terminates a human pregnancy with an intention other than to produce a live birth or to remove a dead fetus commits feticide

So the intention is what matters, not whether it was successful. So it is possible to be charged with feticide when a live birth still occurs


http://www.in.gov/legislative/ic/2010/title35/ar46/ch1.html
Sec. 4. (a) A person having the care of a dependent, whether assumed voluntarily or because of a legal obligation, who knowingly or intentionally:
(1) places the dependent in a situation that endangers the dependent's life or health;
(2) abandons or cruelly confines the dependent;
(3) deprives the dependent of necessary support; or
(4) deprives the dependent of education as required by law;
commits neglect of a dependent, a Class D felony.


So the sentence is correct under the law as written

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/01 12:45:10


 
   
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Cincinnati, Ohio

It could be worse. Could be Colorado:

http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-colorado-baby-not-alive-20150327-story.html

Hits particularly close to home for me, as my 7 month old was born a month early.

 
   
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In my religion. Abortions are fine and even encouraged. You are hindering my religious freedom.

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Illinois

WTF???

Miscarriage is not illegal.

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 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
WTF???

Miscarriage is not illegal.


Neither is reading what actually happened.

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 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
WTF???

Miscarriage is not illegal.

That is correct, a miscarriage by itself is not illegal. This was not a simple miscarriage. The lady in question ingested medication with the intent to cause an abortion. The fetus was too well developed for the drugs to work. Instead it caused her to give birth prematurely, to a live baby. This baby was then thrown in a dumpster. To claim that this lady was convicted for a miscarriage is wholly disingenuous

 
   
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The Great State of Texas

 CptJake wrote:
 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
WTF???

Miscarriage is not illegal.


Neither is reading what actually happened.


Oh Snap!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Xenomancers wrote:
In my religion. Abortions are fine and even encouraged. You are hindering my religious freedom.

I'm trying to get certain provisions added that permit them retroactively for special people that tick me off, for instance people who like cats.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/01 14:45:53


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
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Cincinnati, Ohio

 Xenomancers wrote:
In my religion. Abortions are fine and even encouraged. You are hindering my religious freedom.


Thanks for the useful and insightful commentary.


 
   
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Nashville, TN

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
WTF???

Miscarriage is not illegal.


Dear God, man do you also send your SS# and bank account info to African princes in exile!?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/01 15:07:37


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 cincydooley wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
In my religion. Abortions are fine and even encouraged. You are hindering my religious freedom.


Thanks for the useful and insightful commentary.


Sorry I just get real offended when people oppress my religious freedom.

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 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Which part of the sentence are you having difficulty with?

I will take this as a yes. Woah. Mind blown.
To answer your question, the 20 years in prison.

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 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Which part of the sentence are you having difficulty with?

I will take this as a yes. Woah. Mind blown.
To answer your question, the 20 years in prison.


How long of a sentence should a person get for killing their kid (which, in the end, is what this lady did)? What would you consider reasonable?

What factors do you consider? Is dumping a new born in the trash a lesser offense than smothering a 3 year old to death?


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 Frazzled wrote:
 CptJake wrote:
 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
WTF???

Miscarriage is not illegal.


Neither is reading what actually happened.


Oh Snap!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Xenomancers wrote:
In my religion. Abortions are fine and even encouraged. You are hindering my religious freedom.

I'm trying to get certain provisions added that permit them retroactively for special people that tick me off, for instance people who like cats.

Cats are the most noble creatures on earth!

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
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 CptJake wrote:
Is dumping a new born in the trash a lesser offense than smothering a 3 year old to death?

Yes.

"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
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 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
 CptJake wrote:
Is dumping a new born in the trash a lesser offense than smothering a 3 year old to death?

Yes.



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