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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/02 05:11:01
Subject: New codex: must buy?
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Violent Space Marine Dedicated to Khorne
Ottawa, Ontario
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Hey folks,
With the rumored release of the new Codex: Eldar, a question comes to mind: Will I have to adopt the new codex?
I've never run into this situation before since I used to take long breaks between editions. Now, IF the codex does get released, should I be expected to change to it? I would be the only player in my group with a 7ed codex. Cost alone is fairly steep since I got the last codex within the last 6 months. I'd rather put my money on new units.
I feel like this might not be a problem really unless the units get nerfed in the new codex; it might look like I am not getting the new one for a personal advantage.
What do you think about this? How would you expect the players in your group to act facing a new codex release?
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BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE! MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/02 05:14:24
Subject: New codex: must buy?
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Rampaging Carnifex
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Depending on how lenient your group is, you could play the old book. But in any standard environment you would be expected and required to play with the latest rules.
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Armies I play:
-5000 pts
-2500 pts
Mechanicus -1850 pts |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/02 05:22:01
Subject: New codex: must buy?
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Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine
Little Rock, Arkansas
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Also, the possibility exists that the eldar might be seeing a drop in power. Regardless of your intent, there WILL be people that see your refusal to move on to your "nerfed" book as a WAAC trait.
So there's that too.
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20000+ points
Tournament reports:
1234567 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/02 05:24:14
Subject: New codex: must buy?
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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It really depends on your group. If you play with a regular group and you're all pretty friendly, just discuss it with them.
There's a general assumption that you need to use the latest rules, but it's not actually written anywhere.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/02 05:25:44
Subject: New codex: must buy?
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Violent Space Marine Dedicated to Khorne
Ottawa, Ontario
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niv-mizzet wrote:Also, the possibility exists that the eldar might be seeing a drop in power. Regardless of your intent, there WILL be people that see your refusal to move on to your "nerfed" book as a WAAC trait.
So there's that too.
Yeah, I think that's reasonable too. I play with a few close friends and family though. I'll probably get it regardless, I don't mind a challenge but the money could be better spent elsewhere. Spent on rumored new units for example.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/02 05:26:44
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE! MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/02 05:33:36
Subject: New codex: must buy?
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Tunneling Trygon
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Rules should be your first priority. There is no 'better spent' and I don't think I'd be understanding if instead of buying the rule set that is current and legal you bought more units for an outdated army. I'd play games against your 6th while you work to afford the new codex, but not if you willfully ignored the new book for new stuff.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/02 05:36:04
Subject: New codex: must buy?
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Gargantuan Gargant
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Well, assuming this codex brings some measure of internal balance (i.e. Wraithknights and Wave Serpents get toned down but thing like Howling Banshees and Swooping Hawks get a boost) you probably want to go for it. If GW pulls another classic fumble, you could just talk to your gaming group and ask to stick with the older one. It's still functional in 7th so it shouldn't be that big of a deal.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/02 05:41:16
Subject: New codex: must buy?
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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SharkoutofWata wrote:Rules should be your first priority. There is no 'better spent' and I don't think I'd be understanding if instead of buying the rule set that is current and legal you bought more units for an outdated army. I'd play games against your 6th while you work to afford the new codex, but not if you willfully ignored the new book for new stuff.
Why?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/02 05:43:59
Subject: Re:New codex: must buy?
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Violent Space Marine Dedicated to Khorne
Ottawa, Ontario
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I agree that I should be working on rules first. However without a codex coming out I would be investing money elsewhere. I wouldn't expect any of my group to shell out for a new codex as soon as it came out though. And as far as things getting toned down, I never used Wave Serpents excessively because I like to keep things fun for the other players. To be honest my win/loss ratio is absolutely awful but I like going for fluff rather than WAAC.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/02 05:45:27
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE! MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/02 06:04:06
Subject: New codex: must buy?
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Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader
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You're going to be expected to play with the up to date rules for your army. In my group, people are lined up to get the new codex so it hasn't ever come up. All of us have had days where we wish we could use the old book but nobody has even asked because it's just not how we play. Nobody here uses 6E BRB, outdated codex, etc. Considering how much work some of the units in the eldar codex need to be balanced out internally and externally, that's the last army I would let someone use an outdated codex for.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/02 06:57:30
Subject: New codex: must buy?
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Tunneling Trygon
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insaniak wrote: SharkoutofWata wrote:Rules should be your first priority. There is no 'better spent' and I don't think I'd be understanding if instead of buying the rule set that is current and legal you bought more units for an outdated army. I'd play games against your 6th while you work to afford the new codex, but not if you willfully ignored the new book for new stuff.
Why?
Because unless the group is actively playing a previous edition or deciding as a whole to put the game on pause at this point, it doesn't really interest me to play in a stasis bubble. I'd rather play with and against folks using the newest available or making efforts to get the newest available. I am understanding when the issue is the cost involved, it's an expensive hobby and ridiculously expensive books, but like I said, it's when the player (not the OP, I'm speaking generally now) buys the equivalent cost of new models instead. I simply wouldn't find that fun and I'd play against someone else as time goes on since release.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/02 08:00:32
Subject: New codex: must buy?
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Ancient Chaos Terminator
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Always use the newest in my opinion. If GW started releasing uodates to dexes every 6 months I might change my opinion though haha. I am pretty sure this Eldar dex will be different than the main one though, kind of like Harlequins.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/02 08:04:35
Subject: New codex: must buy?
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Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator
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The new book is mandatory if you play the faction.
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Former moderator 40kOnline
Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!
Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a " " I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."
Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/02 08:18:47
Subject: Re:New codex: must buy?
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Violent Space Marine Dedicated to Khorne
Ottawa, Ontario
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Lets look at it this way: My group has 4 players, each of us actually has two armies. I have CSM and Eldar, another has AM and Sisters, the third has SM and Orks and lastly we have Nids and Tau. Now wouldn't it be fair to wait until we all have new codices, or at least one new one each, before upgrading? What if Eldar would be the only one getting a new dex this edition, it isn't the only army that is considered overpowered in current meta right?
I am just speaking hypothetically here. Wish GW would come out with a new edition and ALL the codices at once.
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BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE! MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/02 08:37:00
Subject: New codex: must buy?
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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SharkoutofWata wrote:Because unless the group is actively playing a previous edition or deciding as a whole to put the game on pause at this point, it doesn't really interest me to play in a stasis bubble. I'd rather play with and against folks using the newest available or making efforts to get the newest available. I am understanding when the issue is the cost involved, it's an expensive hobby and ridiculously expensive books, but like I said, it's when the player (not the OP, I'm speaking generally now) buys the equivalent cost of new models instead. I simply wouldn't find that fun and I'd play against someone else as time goes on since release.
So... The moment a new book comes out, the old book is suddenly to boring to play against?
That's an odd criteria for judging your enjoyment level against, given the inconsistent rate of codex releases.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/02 08:41:17
Subject: Re:New codex: must buy?
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Wing Commander
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Once upon a time I would have said no question, use the most up to date rules, especially as with the traditional longer update cycles, the changes were often quite pronounced, especially for those armies which "skipped" an edition in rules (4th to 6th for instance).
Now? 6th to 7th has changed very little in the actual core rules or how codexes function, and in terms of actual content changes you're going to see a few units rejiggered a little bit, some sort of formation(s) and something in a LOW slot which wasn't beforehand. You should use the most recent rules, no doubt, but shelling out $50 after so little time for what will doubtlessly be small changes and undoubtedly less art, and certainly no new art/fluff? Whatever changes gets leaked online, discussed by reviewers and so on, shouldn't be terribly hard to figure out what's different from your current book and roll with it. As an example, what changed from IG 5th to IG 6th? A couple new orders, reduced points cost on all but two tanks, a couple new vehicle upgrades, 3 new units I've never seen in the flesh or considered using with Stormtroopers seeing the only real redesign, and cut all non-Cadian/Catachan characters and Marbo.
God damnit, I miss you marbo.
Chances are that is more dramatic than what you'll see with an Eldar update.
Don't reward GW if they don't offer a product you actually want or need, especially if you're in a close knit group like you say. In my group, no one actually buys supplements for instance; their few divergent rules are all covered by blogs in a paragraph or 1d4chan, so unless someone's really into that particular subfaction (one guy does have the limited edition Farsight book, man likes his battlesuits), it's not hard to work around it without doing anything illegal or morally suspect.
says a lot about GW's books that you don't need to pirate them to find out what "crunch" they've got; you can cover it all in a few sentences, and yet they still abhor the idea of releasing their rules for free to simplify the whole matter, build some goodwill and draw in more people who go "How about no?" to hundreds of dollars of rules before you get to build your first model.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/02 08:44:33
Therefore, I conclude, Valve should announce Half Life 2: Episode 3.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/02 08:51:20
Subject: New codex: must buy?
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Tunneling Trygon
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insaniak wrote:
So... The moment a new book comes out, the old book is suddenly to boring to play against?
That's an odd criteria for judging your enjoyment level against, given the inconsistent rate of codex releases.
A slight oversimplication but in essence, yes. Nothing make me happier in 40k than doing new things, trying new lists against new opponents using new criteria. I don't like super competitive, I've found that out real quick, but I do like having a new challenge or atleast variations. I'm not desperate for change, but when there's something new I want to go play with it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/02 08:59:09
Subject: Re:New codex: must buy?
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Violent Space Marine Dedicated to Khorne
Ottawa, Ontario
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MajorStoffer wrote:Don't reward GW if they don't offer a product you actually want or need, especially if you're in a close knit group like you say. In my group, no one actually buys supplements for instance; their few divergent rules are all covered by blogs in a paragraph or 1d4chan, so unless someone's really into that particular subfaction (one guy does have the limited edition Farsight book, man likes his battlesuits), it's not hard to work around it without doing anything illegal or morally suspect.
That sorta sums up how I feel about it.
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BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE! MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/02 09:08:37
Subject: Re:New codex: must buy?
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Wing Commander
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I've been thinking about this a fair bit recently truth be told; rumours of SM release in the not-so-distant future have me going, "Would I actually want that?"
I have two fun, fluffy SM armies which are heavily dependent on a mechanic I don't suspect will survive the change; chapter tactics. (Formations will no doubt replace them, but as I'm using a FW chapter, I'd be "up gak creek," as that lovely saying goes). Sure, they'll nerf centurions (which I don't use, they're too damn fugly and arbitrary), change the SC rules a little, add a unit or two and call it a day; SM codexes more than most change very little, one of the reasons they have so many mediocre units like tac terminators, unchanged for edition after edition. So, with all that in mind, would I want to buy another codex when the one I use isn't a steaming pile of gak, and will not fundamentally change with a newer publication aside from stuff I will be able to easily piece together on my own, and if I find the changes particularly offensive, I'll either shelve the army or keep using the older rules, depending on what the prevailing opinion of my club is.
After all, this is the era of "Forge the Narrative," and a complete absence of hard restrictions or remotely well thought out rules, and everyone knows it.
Only if the changes are pronounced, of sound quality and overall offer a product you want, then by it. That's, in theory, how this whole capitalism thing is supposed to work, no? They'll never offer a better product or business strategy if the current one keeps generating them income.
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Therefore, I conclude, Valve should announce Half Life 2: Episode 3.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/02 09:16:18
Subject: Re:New codex: must buy?
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Violent Space Marine Dedicated to Khorne
Ottawa, Ontario
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Yeah, see that's the thing too, some armies get their codices updated more frequently than others, why should they pay more for something that really doesn't provide the kind of quality and worthwhile change you would expect in something worth upwards of 50$. It's the same reason I've never bought another Call Of Duty in the last 8 years.
I probably wouldn't expect my brother to buy a new codex for his Space Marines as soon as it came out, I was happy playing with his 6th edition codex, why would that change because they pushed out a slightly modified one?
To further the point, kinda don't like the direction they are going with the "DLC" type stuff a la dataslates. Just give me everything in one codex please and thanks.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/04/02 09:18:06
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE! MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/02 10:03:09
Subject: New codex: must buy?
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Fixture of Dakka
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I'm a strong proponent of, 'play what you like'.
However, the practical reality is that unless you have like-minded friends that play in a closed group, what you like can be pretty lonely. In a shot time, most people will migrate to current rules, and insisting on playing old rules 'because I like them better' only works if at least one other person you play with believes so.
I like my pre-7th Grey Knights better, but if I insist in playing old rules, even my best gaming buddies would look at me funny.
Also, practically, 40k is also a social game played IRL, meaning that all of the factors therein are in play as well --such as peer pressure. Someone insisting on playing 6e 40k may be given a hard time, for example.
Finally, there will likely be new units and models that are not compatible with old rules (unless you write them in).
Regarding DLCs, digital codices, and mini faction codices: this works both ways. Sure, the faithful go and buy lots of hardcovers and DLC. However, there are vast hordes that just go download it now -- especially since going from DLC to a pirated ebook is a but a few keystrokes.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/02 10:09:08
Subject: New codex: must buy?
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Violent Space Marine Dedicated to Khorne
Ottawa, Ontario
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Talys wrote:Regarding DLCs, digital codices, and mini faction codices: this works both ways. Sure, the faithful go and buy lots of hardcovers and DLC. However, there are vast hordes that just go download it now -- especially since going from DLC to a pirated ebook is a but a few keystrokes.
I didn't mean the digital codices, those are a good idea. I meant more the dataslates and painting guides, basically anything that used to be included in the codex but now is something extra you need to pay for to have access to.
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BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE! MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/02 10:35:36
Subject: New codex: must buy?
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Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian
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Lets look at this another way... everybody is in almost universal agreement that the new crons are a huge upgrade on their already previously strong dex. Now I have the new dex and the old (and the old old). Now I would be hampering myself if I played a list from the old dex in comparison to the new, only anni barges, scarabs, scythes and courts having been nerfed everything else being extensively buffed. Would this make me appear to have a WAAC attitude? Now I don't plan on doing this as I am excited about the new dex despite my favourite unit being completely axed (stormteks with veiltek), but it would go to show that people wouldn't necessarily be doing it for WAAC reasons.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/02 11:05:31
Subject: New codex: must buy?
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Fixture of Dakka
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The answer to this sort of thing is "Ask the guys you play against". If you're stuck in a store environment playing against whoever happens to turn up on a given night, then you're probably out of luck. If you've got a decent group of friends you regularly play against, then ask them.
There's some Warhammer players at my club who've gone back to 6th edition, and "oldhammer" is picking up steam across the internet - playing third edition again, complete with home-made army lists, a thousand and one random tables and convoluted rulebook.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/02 12:16:14
Subject: Re:New codex: must buy?
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Violent Space Marine Dedicated to Khorne
Ottawa, Ontario
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Yeah, I'll be talking with my group about it for sure; it is their opinion that matters after all. I was just curious as to how most approach this.
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BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE! MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/02 12:52:42
Subject: New codex: must buy?
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Fresh-Faced New User
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GearheadXII wrote:
Yeah, I think that's reasonable too. I play with a few close friends and family though. I'll probably get it regardless, I don't mind a challenge but the money could be better spent elsewhere. Spent on rumored new units for example.
Well, if you are planning on using the rumored new units you're going to need the rules for them.
While theoretically I would be OK with someone using an old codex, it would need to be a single intact codex with no cherry picking between versions. Spamming old codex wave serpents with the new hotness units would be a no go for me.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/02 13:14:02
Subject: New codex: must buy?
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Is 'Eavy Metal Calling?
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My take on it:
Your current book functions perfectly in the current edition of the main rules, so it is not going to suddenly cease functioning as soon as the new book comes out, so especially given your small, local gaming group, there is really no need to update. Contrary to what GW would like, your current book/models won't Self-Destruct when à new edition comes out.
The 'codex cycle' and the idea that you MUST follow it is pretty much a construct created by GW to keep getting your money even after you've bought your army. Most other games only update editions when there are recognised issues with balance/mechanics that need addressing (see KoW2, Infinity N3, Deadzone Containment), whereas GW does it as a matter of course. Ultimately, the game is in the hands of us, the players, and if we decide to 'pause' the game, as my group did at the end of 6th, then there's not a lot they can do about it!
To those that insist on the current rules, I ask this: it's the Friday before a new Codex release, and you have a good time playing against Player X's army. That army has a new Codex released on under Saturday, and on Sunday, you're scheduled to play X again. What possible reason, other than 'GW says so', do you have to refuse to play that (now old) book when 2 days ago you were fine with it?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/02 14:42:00
Subject: New codex: must buy?
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Thane of Dol Guldur
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As an example, with the latest Necron codex, my Cryptek Harbinger cults were rendered obsolete by new rules.
My local group has allowed me to continue to use the Royal Court/Cryptek rules from the last codex, so I can play with my cool converted models, vs. the bland new Crypteks.
I am happy about this, very happy in fact because of the time and effort I put into converting and paiting the models, however if I went to my FLGS for a pickup game, I wouldn't even bother asking to do this, and would just use the Royal Court/Cryptek new rules (and by this, I mean, I woudn't run any Crypteks or the Royal Court formation at all).
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/02 14:42:38
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/02 16:22:52
Subject: New codex: must buy?
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Fixture of Dakka
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GearheadXII wrote: Talys wrote:Regarding DLCs, digital codices, and mini faction codices: this works both ways. Sure, the faithful go and buy lots of hardcovers and DLC. However, there are vast hordes that just go download it now -- especially since going from DLC to a pirated ebook is a but a few keystrokes.
I didn't mean the digital codices, those are a good idea. I meant more the dataslates and painting guides, basically anything that used to be included in the codex but now is something extra you need to pay for to have access to.
The painting guides aren't really fair -- they don't have anything to do with gaming, and 95% of people don't paint models to anywhere remotely close to the level described in the painting guides.
All the formations & detachments (non-Forge World) are available here: at the Formation Compendium http://bloodofkittens.com/formation-compendium/
Even though I've literally bought everything with a formation in it, I still use that site, because it's all in one place. If you really want to play a subfaction, (Enclaves, Iyanden, etc.) -- yeah, you must buy another book.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Poly Ranger wrote:Lets look at this another way... everybody is in almost universal agreement that the new crons are a huge upgrade on their already previously strong dex. Now I have the new dex and the old (and the old old). Now I would be hampering myself if I played a list from the old dex in comparison to the new, only anni barges, scarabs, scythes and courts having been nerfed everything else being extensively buffed. Would this make me appear to have a WAAC attitude? Now I don't plan on doing this as I am excited about the new dex despite my favourite unit being completely axed (stormteks with veiltek), but it would go to show that people wouldn't necessarily be doing it for WAAC reasons.
Well, yeah, but if you wanted to play MSS....  The problem you can run into against people who don't mind, but that aren't long-time players, is that as time goes by, fewer and fewer people will be familiar with older rules, and will have different expectations of units.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/02 16:28:55
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/02 16:32:02
Subject: New codex: must buy?
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Esteemed Veteran Space Marine
My secret fortress at the base of the volcano!
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I still run a 5th Ed IG army. I used Al'Rahem, Marbo, Penal Squads, and Mogul Kamir in my army. I see no reason to stop using them just because GW lost a court case and put out a bland book as a result. When someone tells me that I need to play with the newest codex, I ask them if they are offering to buy it for me. That usually ends the discussion right there.
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Emperor's Eagles (undergoing Chapter reorganization)
Caledonian 95th (undergoing regimental reorganization)
Thousands Sons (undergoing Warband re--- wait, are any of my 40K armies playable?) |
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