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what should they do to mature then?
Wearing flayed skin as decoration, collected heads and other body parts have been part of their appearance for a long time. What else should they do in your opinion?
They are mostly butchers and not serial killer psychopaths who get a boner from mindfucking with victims. Apart from slaanesh followers maybe.

I would assume so. Loyalists swear too, though. In "Know No Fear", Roboute Guilliman calls the Word Bearers "Motherless Bastards" and if you want a better example, check out the Angry Marines (Their full battle cry is "Always Angry, All The Time! SCREAM IT YOU GOD DAMN C*CKSUCKING ULTRAMARINE LOVING F*CKTARD")

Angry Marines aren't canon though so they don't count.

Do soldiers swear? That's your answer. All 40k-related is PG13 material, so you don't hear any real curse words.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Oh no, I'd agree with the advanced point referring to culture. America right now has somethings more in common with Russia and fething Iran then western European nations. We're also bipolar, likely due to our nature as a melting pot of cultures and thus swing between difference cultural stances constantly.

But not really relating to swearing, but overall, I wish 40K, especially Chaos, would mature more and go into what's more or less "true darkness" instead of just dudes in power armor with spikes on them, or cartoonish devils with swords running around. Chaos is supposed to be the destroyer, then end of days and well, Chaos, yet it often feels or is portaryed like a cartoon character compared to Lovecraftian horror. Rather then feeling like Entropy or Misery incarnate, they come across as a child's understanding of Dagon, Cthulhu, Nyarlathotep, etc.

I'm personally curious as to how you mean this.

By and large I'd say that Chaos is pretty dark, though it was a bit more so. But that's if you get into the fluff and really start to pick at it. Fir example, really delving into the horrible things the Emperor's Children with indulge, just how broken the World Eaters and Night Lords are, some stuff like that. I also think that showing how the Chaos gods can be "good" would also help. Returning Khorne to loving martial pride and not thinking that the skulls of infants / elderly / invalids are great - that kind of thing.

 morganfreeman wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Oh no, I'd agree with the advanced point referring to culture. America right now has somethings more in common with Russia and fething Iran then western European nations. We're also bipolar, likely due to our nature as a melting pot of cultures and thus swing between difference cultural stances constantly.

But not really relating to swearing, but overall, I wish 40K, especially Chaos, would mature more and go into what's more or less "true darkness" instead of just dudes in power armor with spikes on them, or cartoonish devils with swords running around. Chaos is supposed to be the destroyer, then end of days and well, Chaos, yet it often feels or is portaryed like a cartoon character compared to Lovecraftian horror. Rather then feeling like Entropy or Misery incarnate, they come across as a child's understanding of Dagon, Cthulhu, Nyarlathotep, etc.

I'm personally curious as to how you mean this.

By and large I'd say that Chaos is pretty dark, though it was a bit more so. But that's if you get into the fluff and really start to pick at it. Fir example, really delving into the horrible things the Emperor's Children with indulge, just how broken the World Eaters and Night Lords are, some stuff like that. I also think that showing how the Chaos gods can be "good" would also help. Returning Khorne to loving martial pride and not thinking that the skulls of infants / elderly / invalids are great - that kind of thing.

Oh FFS, Khorne has NEVER been about martial pride in 40K. Going all the way back to his first appearance in 40K, all Khorne cared for was blood, and never where it came from.

The problem with Chaos right now is that it is too well "known". It is quantified, we comprehend it from a reader's perspective. Daemons are not portrayed as horrifying entities from beyond the wall of sleep come to kill from ignorance or reap out of contempt, they're just red devils running around with horned heads and swords to chop people up with. If there was one army I would change, it would be Daemons to simply make them more chaotic, Lovecraftian. Render them the unknowable, incomprehensible horror that not even Space Marines should be able to comprehend or shake off so easily as they do now.

Daemons should not tbe anthropomorphic entities we know them now as, but eldritch abominations bled from beyond reality and existence as we know, either killing from shear ignorance and failing to even recognize us as life, or reaping souls out of malice and contempt for all life. They are not cartoonish personifications of emotions or even have thoughts that humans can comprehend or relate to. All that can be understood of their nature by life of the materium is that they are contempt incarnate, holding the same value for our lives as we treat microbes. They bleed from other realms, crawling out of shadow as madness. Nothing mortal can gaze upon them, including Space Marines, for to look upon one is to gaze upon the incomprehensible- insanity incarnated. No humanoid bodies taken, nothing we could so easily relate to. They instead twist themselves into alien geometries that defy reality and spiral upwards and downwards into other planes of existence- stretching across dimensions like a rot within the fabric of reality itself. Bodies flushed with colors unimaginable before that reflect both within the mind and soul, driving you insane the longer the exposure as your brain strains more and more to comprehend that which defies it and exists in a state beyond what it can fully perceive. Like a blind man trying to paint a nebulae in every spectrum of light, it is simply beyond the capability of the human mind to understand and quantify- and to attempt only corrupts your mind and soul.

Punt all informative sources into the wastebin. Leave the palyer to wonder what the hell Chaos truly is, and what these rumored Chaos Gods really are. Are daemons individuals? Are they a single entity? Are Chaos Gods even single entities, or are they all part of a single greater amorphous entity, all of which is slowly encircling reality like the roots of a great tree, only too expansive and great to see from the perspective of the human mind? What is it? What are they? Nobody knows, not even the legions of Chaos. What we would know as daemons previously in 40K would rather be cultists and champions, somewhat like the aliens of Behind the Wall of Sleep and the Deep Ones, only anyone can apply so long as they leave all behind and embark on a trail they do not know where will take them, and if any parts of their sentience will even survive. Cultists mutate slowly under the influence of the destroyer, warping to their chosen god until they end up something like Daemonettes or Pink Horrors, warped to such a degree that all humanity has been lost.

Really, just add mystery. Gut the physical forms of daemons, they shouldn't have a true physical body, that quantifies them. The monster stops being horrifying if you can quantify it truly, draw a picture of it and show it to your fellow man. The greatest fear is that of the unknown, and as such daemons should always, always remain unknown. Make the player question what the faction is. What its motives even are. Who leads it? What causes the mutations? Are the cultists even in control of themselves anymore? Are they even sentient? Or are they merely puppets on the spreading roots of a far greater beast, acting as individual cells within an entity that is infinite? Can you fight it? Can you kill it? Do you join it in search of salvation, or do you stand and fight it in hope of saving your individuality? And what is a daemon even, is it just some horribly abomination from another reality, or is it just an iceberg cresting the waters of our realm, and below lurks a far greater beast?

IMO, Daemons should be so utterly horrifying and esoteric that not only should it be impressive if ANYONE can put a true Daemon down, but a Space Marine should go mad as well from facing them. The only faction that should be able to even properly fight them are the Grey Knights.


TL;DR, make Chaos surreal. Eldritch. Incomprehensible. Nobody besides special factions and characters like the Grey Knights, Primarchs, Living Saints, and super-duper abnormal space marine champions like Sigismund be able to kill daemons. Daemons are without form and exist on multiple levels, and armies instead consist of chaos cultists and fully mutated cultists who look more like our traditional 40K daemons. True daemons should make even Space Marines attempt suicide from over-exposure.

i dont see how that would make anything "more mature"... it would just be different.

Gut the physical forms of daemons, they shouldn't have a true physical body, that quantifies them. The monster stops being horrifying if you can quantify it truly, draw a picture of it and show it to your fellow man

1) that doesnt work well for a miniature game universe
2) tyranids have a very real body... and yet they are horrifying to the peopl. Same with demons, regular humans can get insane from beeing exposed to demons.
3) there are more daemons then just lesser daemons and greater daemons. There are powerfull daemons without body who are looking for one, these entities already exist.

I do agree with most of that Wyzilla, but as Keep said, it doesn't really translate to a miniature game very well. But I would prefer a more eldritch feel to chaos, they feel very cartoony a lot of the time when they're meant to be a surreal creeping evil.

they feel very cartoony a lot of the time

examples?

 Keep wrote:

they feel very cartoony a lot of the time

examples?

They just do to me, I mean look at the horror models. The metal ones were excellent, very surreal, incomprehensible, the new ones just look like cartoon characters. But in the fluff, Khorne is just a big cartoony angry demon king, very single faceted with no depth. It's just the feel I get from a lot of stuff about chaos. It's not dark enough for what it's meant to portray, generally.

There was actually a single place referencing Khorne being about "Martial Pride" barring the Lexicanum', No idea where this Khorne "Martial Pride" idea came from, But it's obviously not his M.O.

Seen examples of loyalists pseudo swearing. One was "...by Russ's hairy balls" and I think another when a Space Wolf novitiate crashes a thunderhawk in Blood of Asaheim.

 Keep wrote:
i dont see how that would make anything "more mature"... it would just be different.

Gut the physical forms of daemons, they shouldn't have a true physical body, that quantifies them. The monster stops being horrifying if you can quantify it truly, draw a picture of it and show it to your fellow man

1) that doesnt work well for a miniature game universe
2) tyranids have a very real body... and yet they are horrifying to the peopl. Same with demons, regular humans can get insane from beeing exposed to demons.
3) there are more daemons then just lesser daemons and greater daemons. There are powerfull daemons without body who are looking for one, these entities already exist.

The problem is daemons being an army in the first place. Like I said, current models (although changed for being further disturbing) are merely cultists horribly mutated. Actual daemons would be something like a LOTW with some special sculpt of pure chaos similar to Yog-Sothoth with the player just throwing paint on it. Garish. Gigantic. Intimidating. Ruinous.

And no, it is more mature because it wouldn't be fairly cartoonish and almost childish in some aspects, most notable Khonre. Khorne is just a discount demon king from any fantasy universe with generic satan iconography who just kills you. Madness and such is kept to a minimum. And while I also didn't want to put it so bluntly, rape really, really, should be a thing for some Slaanesh warbands to make them actually horrifying. Another issue I have with Chaos is that in some ways, I'd be more terrified about the Imperial Japanese Army showing up on my front door or the Red Army crashing through the wall then Chaos Cultists or Slaanesh Daemons. We know it probalby happens, but GW likes to pretend it doesn't even exist and never even plays ball. It doesn't even need to be physical either- something that comes from beyond could just as easily rip apart and brutalize the mind and psyche.

Chaos just quite simply doesn't feel EVIL. It doesn't invoke feelings of dread, fear, or cause you to be disturbed. I've read a LOT of 40K books and still have yet to find even anything remotely impressive or interesting on Daemons compared to other fictions with Eldritch Abominations, yet Chaos is supposed to be the Eldritch Abomination faction. It feels so young, so dumbed down and censored. If Imperial Japanese Soldiers are more frightening then cultists worshiping eldritch abominations that wish to corrupt and destroy everything- something's gone terribly wrong in the writing department in conveying terror. Daemons are always talked up about as that faction that makes you want to commit suicide if you see them coming and force you to execute everyone who is exposed to them without resistance to taint, yet they just seem so... average. They aren't legitimately disturbing or frightening, hell Chaos Space Marines have a lot more fridge horror, yet they're just mortal servants.

I dunno, Chaos is just hyped up so much as EEVUUUUUL, yet compared to real-life charming characters they're rather blasé. I can turn on CNN and listen to things far worse then anything written for Chaos going on in the Middle East. It leaves Chaos at times just feeling so cartoonish and childish. The threat is so censored and dumbed down it just doesn't convey that sense of horror. Open a history book and read about Nanking. Meanwhile if crack open a 40K book on Chaos what is done to their victims is absolutely mundane at times compared to the worst parts of humanity. Or how the Night Lords claim to be the masters of torture, but then there's the Viking Blood Eagle. GW simply doesn't keep up with the true horror mankind can unleash.

Exalted for truth, Wyzilla. That's pretty much exactly how I feel about Chaos.

 Khonsu wrote:
There was actually a single place referencing Khorne being about "Martial Pride" barring the Lexicanum', No idea where this Khorne "Martial Pride" idea came from, But it's obviously not his M.O.

It's very, very old fluff. From the Realm of Chaos books (late 80s) onwards, Khorne has been mostly "blood and skullz" all the time. Which doesn't mean a "martial pride" Khorne cannot be a more interesting approach to the character.

Also agree with Wyzilla. Funny enough, some pieces of now forgotten (from the 'official' point of view) Fantasy fluff, like Mengil's Manflayers, actually feel way more irky and disturbing than 99% of current Chaos fluff. And Mengil isn't even an "evil side" character, just a mercenary.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Keep wrote:

they feel very cartoony a lot of the time

examples?

They just do to me, I mean look at the horror models. The metal ones were excellent, very surreal, incomprehensible, the new ones just look like cartoon characters. But in the fluff, Khorne is just a big cartoony angry demon king, very single faceted with no depth. It's just the feel I get from a lot of stuff about chaos. It's not dark enough for what it's meant to portray, generally.

40k miniatures in "epic scale" inherently look cartoonish, because they dont have alot of detail, their proportions (for humanoids) are way off, weapons are huge blobs, etc. If you want maturity you have to look for artwork (those that are not specifically made to look comic like...). Descriptions in novels / the background is mature enough imo.
I do agree however, that the new daemons, and several other 40k &fantasy miniatures they brought out in the last years, look stupid. I would blame that on bad designers however, not on the lack of maturity in background.

And Mengil isn't even an "evil side" character, just a mercenary.

he is a dark elve, and dark elves are evil/ full of hatred / sadistic...

actually feel way more irky and disturbing than 99% of current Chaos fluff

examples? What are you expecting instead? How is disease and pestilence and outerworldy beeings representing/delivering it not disturbing? How is extreme brutality not disturbing? If that does not sound disturbing to you... maybe you would have a different opinion if you've actually experienced it on the receiving end...

Which doesn't mean a "martial pride" Khorne cannot be a more interesting approach to the character.

Khorne just hates shooting and especially scorcery because its for weaklings. Strength, brutality and bloodshed are the ideals.

 Keep wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Keep wrote:

they feel very cartoony a lot of the time

examples?

They just do to me, I mean look at the horror models. The metal ones were excellent, very surreal, incomprehensible, the new ones just look like cartoon characters. But in the fluff, Khorne is just a big cartoony angry demon king, very single faceted with no depth. It's just the feel I get from a lot of stuff about chaos. It's not dark enough for what it's meant to portray, generally.

40k miniatures in "epic scale" inherently look cartoonish, because they dont have alot of detail, their proportions (for humanoids) are way off, weapons are huge blobs, etc. If you want maturity you have to look for artwork (those that are not specifically made to look comic like...). Descriptions in novels / the background is mature enough imo.
I do agree however, that the new daemons, and several other 40k &fantasy miniatures they brought out in the last years, look stupid. I would blame that on bad designers however, not on the lack of maturity in background.

That would be a valid argument if the previous pink horrors hadn't been pretty much perfect for what they are, so it's nothing to do with the scale or whatever, it's because of the design decisions. Descriptions in the background are just as watered down and cartoony as the rest of the setting is these days.

You don't have to agree but it's how I feel about it, I done feel like we need to provide examples of how we feel just because you don't agree. It's a subjective discussion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Korinov wrote:

 Khonsu wrote:
There was actually a single place referencing Khorne being about "Martial Pride" barring the Lexicanum', No idea where this Khorne "Martial Pride" idea came from, But it's obviously not his M.O.

It's very, very old fluff. From the Realm of Chaos books (late 80s) onwards, Khorne has been mostly "blood and skullz" all the time. Which doesn't mean a "martial pride" Khorne cannot be a more interesting approach to the character.

Also agree with Wyzilla. Funny enough, some pieces of now forgotten (from the 'official' point of view) Fantasy fluff, like Mengil's Manflayers, actually feel way more irky and disturbing than 99% of current Chaos fluff. And Mengil isn't even an "evil side" character, just a mercenary.

There were those weird chaos things that had hooks for hands and chains nailed into their backs that climbed walls and when they died the chains hung there for people to climb. They were cool, gruesome and dark, and if you compare them to like, wrathmongers...

Keep wrote:

And Mengil isn't even an "evil side" character, just a mercenary.

he is a dark elve, and dark elves are evil/ full of hatred / sadistic...

actually feel way more irky and disturbing than 99% of current Chaos fluff

examples? What are you expecting instead? How is disease and pestilence and outerworldy beeings representing/delivering it not disturbing? How is extreme brutality not disturbing? If that does not sound disturbing to you... maybe you would have a different opinion if you've actually experienced it on the receiving end...

Which doesn't mean a "martial pride" Khorne cannot be a more interesting approach to the character.

Khorne just hates shooting and especially scorcery because its for weaklings. Strength, brutality and bloodshed are the ideals.

Mengil is a dark elf, and it's true dark elves have a quite "evil" flavour, but still he's not among the usual destruction-mongers. He's just a mercenary with quite brutal and savage methods. And yes, to me, a bunch of sadistic cannibals who will torture, kill, flay then eat you, while simply being very minor players in the big scheme of things (which means they could be hired by your very neighbour to do horrible things to you) feel a bit more disturbing than a stereotypical goofy cartoonish red demon with a huge sword wanting to murder you.

By "martial pride" Khorne I mean a more balanced Khorne which also has a few characteristics that can be considered positive, at least in a certain way. A god of war can be something more than blood and skullz.

ImAGeek wrote:There were those weird chaos things that had hooks for hands and chains nailed into their backs that climbed walls and when they died the chains hung there for people to climb. They were cool, gruesome and dark, and if you compare them to like, wrathmongers...

Yep, from the Storm of Chaos. Also remember the Chaos Dwarf Hellcannon? Golden Age of Fantasy without a doubt. Mengil's Manflayer's awesome latest models were also from that time.

Yes they swear. I'm sure every army swears except nids

They probably do just not in English, like how orks use a Zog to replace the f word (not sure if I should curse in a forum about cursing)
While we never see actual cursing in GW publications, I think its one of those things that do happen just off camera.

Descriptions in the background are just as watered down and cartoony as the rest of the setting is these days.

maybe in the new codices, but hardly in the novels and old (good) codices, like chaos 3.5 ... And it's not just chaos that suffered from lacklusteredness in fluff department. Tyranids barely have any background in their codex anymore. "we eat" and thats it. In 3rd edition you had whole descriptions how the invasion phases where (in detail), shortstories, and other goodies.

 Keep wrote:

Descriptions in the background are just as watered down and cartoony as the rest of the setting is these days.

maybe in the codices, but hardly in the novels and old (good) codices, like chaos 3.5 ...

I did say these days...

see edited post

Again, I did say 'as watered down as the rest of the setting'...

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
You do realize that GW is based in England right?

It would make sense if they were an American company, but they aren't.

Yes, I happen to live less than an hour from their HQ. Please read to the end, where in conclusion I bring my rather rambling sociological history back to the point. America is big. There's an old saying: "In England, a hundred miles is a long way, but in America, a hundred years is a long time."

America has a massive cultural impact on the rest of the world simply due to the sheer scale of their entertainment industry. Thing is, that industry has only really become that massive in the last fifty years or so, which means that England, which started from a similar point but changed more quickly (avoiding the word 'advanced' because Vermis is right, it is biased language, which I should be avoiding), is now feeling the impact of the US pulling it back towards where it was five hundred years ago - in large countries, well-managed countries (like the post-New-Deal USA), industrial and economic power can advance massively, while at the same time having so many people means that ideas, which is to say social changes, happen a lot more slowly.

While that is true, it still doesn't make sense with why GW is oversantizing their product.

Culturally, the rest of the world is having more of an effect on us in this particular area than we are on it.

It really goes both ways, although I'll admit that this is mostly only the case for England, probably because we don't dub your media (although you do dub ours, or in some cases, remake it entirely.

 Wyzilla wrote:
the Viking Blood Eagle.

Interestingly enough, this is (was?) part of the Warriors of Chaos for fantasy!

 Wyzilla wrote:
I can turn on CNN and listen to things far worse then anything written for Chaos going on in the Middle East.

Well they are cutting peoples head off. Where are the head on all the spikes and chains coming from then if not other living beeings?
Havent heard of mass human sacrifices for their god from the middle east yet...

Viking Blood Eagle.

Thats an elaborate thing to do to a specific enemy you want to die in a painfull way... i dont see why chaos followers wouldn't do that if they have the time. Just because it is not explicitly stated doesnt mean it's not happening. Idk about you but i dont feel the need for them to go into that detail, because i can imagine it. What else would happen if a horde of murderous psychopaths invade a town? I dont need writers to describe every possible act of horrible murder/torture to get the picture. If humans did it in history, they will also do it in the 40th millenium and on greater scale. If you expect to see explicit "murder/torture porn" (apart from bolter porn) in a 40k chaos codex i think you're a bit unrealistic...
Last but not least - it doesnt help that most of the time...loyalists are the main characters and therefore chaos gets (apart from "oh they are the bad guys") no signifant page space at all.
(Also, Nightlords are masters of terror in general... not torture)

In fact, if you would put explicit stuff in there that really happened (i remember reading diaries about chechen war/ grozny where stuff was described in a very figurative way, and ended up depressed/shocked for quite some time)... only few people would want to continue reading that, and they would have to put age ratings on books possibly, they couldn't sell it in a GW store.

Realistically, one thing that would make Chaos a more mature faction would be to further expand upon "non-combatants" (in the loosest definition of the term), and fill out how planets in the Eye of Terror or Maelstrom operate, rather than handwaving it all away.

How does the Dark Mechanicus actually organize production on a mass scale for example? The Magocratic world of Q'Sal in the Screaming Vortex is very reliant on slave labor overseen by three rival cabals of sorcerers, but that's Black Crusade fluff. Do the Dark Mechanicus resort to Chaos Servitors, manual labor from mortal means, or binding Daemons into industrial plants?

How do groups like the Savage Morticians, or Fabius Bile's "rent-a-Geneseed" operation actually coordinate. Do sorcerers just sort of cobble-together the Astropathic equivalent of ham radio, or is there something resembling an attempt to build stable communication lines?

Are there other groups besides the Dark Mechanicus supplying arms to the servants of the Ruinous powers? Are there other planets akin to Kai, or Forgefane, or so? Independent arms dealers?

The Pete Haines Chaos Codex mentions that the pressing need for skilled starship captains is so strong that the Legions will even attempt to seek out the service of mortal commanders, fallen Rogue Traders, etc, offering up their own Marines to do their dirty work for them.

How are mortal agents recruited to serve? The Siege of Vraks mentions Archdeacon Mamon corrupting Cardinal Xaphan, prior to his elevation to Daemon Princehood. Does the Black Legion have anything representing a covert ops/internal security apparatus in that regard?

Lots of areas where Chaos can be made mature and fleshed out without going "too grimdark/edgy 4 u."

It is kinda funny though, on one hand we have genhanced post human murder machines that can destroy PLANETS and basically wage a holocaust on anything that they oppose (and they're the good guys).

On the other side we have the evil version these guys with extra grim, skulls and darkness.

But much more evil are the S&M space elves who will rape your nostrils with barbed wire for the lulz.

And yet Juan Diaz daemonettes are bad... o.O