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Keep, this isn't a 'I have to win' discussion. It's a subjective argument, me and some other people feel like Chaos should be darker and more mature, you aren't going to convince us it's dark enough or that it can't be darker.
Also, no one said we wanted explicit bloody torture or anything. Personally id like to see more of the Lovecraftian creeping inevitable evil side of Chaos.
@MagicJuggler
indeed, that would be way more interesting, and i hope some novel in the future will include this.
You can only make a killing of a human beeing so much more painfull or drawn out. Dead is dead in the end. Drawing it out, doesnt make it incredibly more evil...
Horror is not the target of chaos. Horror is the thing that happens at the receiving end of chaos follower actions. War is Horror in on itself, yet you won't find a War Films/Stories in the Horror section.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/09 00:20:28
Wyzilla wrote: I can turn on CNN and listen to things far worse then anything written for Chaos going on in the Middle East.
Well they are cutting peoples head off. Where are the head on all the spikes and chains coming from then if not other living beeings?
Havent heard of human sacrifices from the middle east yet...
More like mutilating young children and nailing to crosses. I don't think I can even recall mention of Chaos Space Marines ever directly slaughtering women and children in a brutal manner actually come to think of it. So even White Company is ahead of them (pun intended).
Because they could just as easily cleanly beheaded or otherwise killed in a mundane fashion, or otherwise tortured in a fairly yawn-worthy method. Simply chronologing their battles in a more visceral fashion would at least be an improvement, such as noting the brutal murder of every single man, woman, and child on a planet likening to the massacre of Cesena by White Company or the Emperor's Children raping and pillaging their way across Imperial territory in manners more horrific then any real life force in history. Until then, Chaos and Chaos Space Marines to a lesser degree just come off as a fairly weak depiction of horror and slaughter incarnate given that humans have done far more horrifying things and GW lacks the balls to actually put things worse then such events in their books. Note death tolls, or maybe even a book based on the perspective of an imperial citizen as Chaos invades his world and he (or she) ends up in something like a Word Bearer's "reeducation" camp.
Call me jaded from history, but Chaos just feels extremely weak right now, even compared to their fantasy counterparts You can put all the spikes and pointy stars on yer gitz as you want, but until they start doing things that would make the more colorful characters of history wince , they just don't pack any emotional punch. It's like a child claiming they're edgy while torching ants with a magnifying glass.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2015/04/08 23:10:05
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
I don't think I can even recall mention of Chaos Space Marines ever directly slaughtering women and children in a brutal manner actually come to think of it.
I'm sure Berserkers will stop before women and children because they have morale after all...
And dragging the civil population of a city, who did not join in rebellion, to the altar for sacrifice doesn't include women and children all of a sudden now?
Do they need to explictitly state for you "The entire population was murdered. And after that they also murdered all the women and children" or what?
Until then, Chaos and Chaos Space Marines to a lesser degree just come off as a fairly weak depiction of horror and slaughter incarnate given that humans have done far more horrifying things and GW lacks the balls to actually put things worse then such events in their books.
You can't beat what has already been done, because to come up with that you would have to be an extraordinary psychopath. Which is not what the average author is. Or how do you "beat" pulling somebodies guts out while their still living and choking him to death with it? Is there a murderporn rating level or what?
Chaos forces do what realworld forces already did. Except on a galaxy wide scale... genocide torture rape slavery. Why does it have to be mentioned all the time? The latest dark elves armybooks constantly rubbed it in your face that they are evil, sadistic elves, enslaving countless people etc blabla. It's a great thing to be reminded of it every 2 sentences if you suffer from dementia. If you don't its simply annoying because it detracts from the things you actually want to read about. Spoiler: It's not the things you already know.
Note death tolls, or maybe even a book based on the perspective of an imperial citizen as Chaos invades his world and he (or she) ends up in something like a Word Bearer's "reeducation" camp.
Black library is about heroes and/or villains. Not victims. Thank hollywood.
me and some other people feel like Chaos should be darker and more mature
Which i don't understand, because it already is very dark if you read chaos novels and the actually good fluff (as opposed to the shallow codex entries, and "loyal marine hero shoots CSM redshirts all day long" novels). If you wish it should be darker, you should be able to point out what's wrong in the first place. 40k is not extremely well defined in many aspects, which is (as far as i can see) deliberate and interpretating things for yourself is acceptable. So why do you need somebody to tell you that chaos does bad stuff when you already know what "normal" humans have already done in real life?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/04/09 00:10:57
what you seem to be longing for already exists, and that's what i'm trying to point out here... well what do i care if you chose to ignore the good stuff, enjoy not enjoying the background
I don't think I can even recall mention of Chaos Space Marines ever directly slaughtering women and children in a brutal manner actually come to think of it.
I'm sure Berserkers will stop before women and children because they have morale after all...
And dragging the civil population of a city, who did not join in rebellion, to the altar for sacrifice doesn't include women and children all of a sudden now?
Do they need to explictitly state for you "The entire population was murdered. And after that they also murdered all the women and children" or what?
Yes, because otherwise it just sounds like a generic yawn worthy kill-murder-death bit that you barely even notice anymore, because not only does every single Codex contain it, it's just boring. There's nothing shocking or mortifying, it's "Hey look. They killed people. And so did literally everyone else." When eternal war is the shtick for your fiction, "they killed people" is not only expected, it's absolutely mundane and boring. You have to spice it up and actually make it interesting, otherwise it's just snore worthy.
Until then, Chaos and Chaos Space Marines to a lesser degree just come off as a fairly weak depiction of horror and slaughter incarnate given that humans have done far more horrifying things and GW lacks the balls to actually put things worse then such events in their books.
You can't beat what has already been done, because to come up with that you would have to be an extraordinary psychopath. Which is not what the average author is. Or how do you "beat" pulling somebodies guts out while their still living and choking him to death with it? Is there a murderporn rating level or what?
Chaos forces do what realworld forces already did. Except on a galaxy wide scale... genocide torture rape slavery. Why does it have to be mentioned all the time? The latest dark elves armybooks constantly rubbed it in your face that they are evil, sadistic elves, enslaving countless people etc blabla. It's a great thing to be reminded of it every 2 sentences if you suffer from dementia. If you don't its simply annoying because it detracts from the things you actually want to read about. Spoiler: It's not the things you already know.
Except we don't even know if there is any violence of a sexual nature because GW avoids the issue like the plague in fear of blowback and for example, distances the Emperor's Children from their memetic perception as far as possible. But right now the current lore is absolutely boring. It's 40k. You can't just kill people, as every faction does that, it isn't unique, it's just Tuesday. And Tuesday is fething boring. "Genocide murder death" loses its impact when played so often that not only is it expected, but it's Tuesday. It needs to be made special. Turned up even further. Made more infrequent and devastating, horrifying. But right now, the actions of Chaos don't feel more evil, they just feel like mowing a lawn, with the lives they destroy holding less emotional worth in the reader then the blades of grass being chopped apart.
The best analogy I can think of is that you're sipping coffee at Starbucks when a man suffering from several gunshots stumbles into the store and collapses at your feet. You don't jump up to give him CPR, try to stop the bleeding, or even call 911. You don't even look at him while he bleeds out. You just finish your coffee and step over the body to go back to your car. Instead of generating any emotions of horror or dread in the reader, the loss of millions of people in the course of a campaign doesn't even elicit a response. It's just another day at the job. And while 40K is supposed to be grimdark, grimdark is supposed to inspire thoughts of horror at the universe, but the reader is left blase.
Really, what 40K needs, Chaos especially, is writers who aren't complete garbage and can write some half-decent horror that doesn't read like a shopping list. Because that's what Chaos is now, boring characters checking off a list of evil dick moves that carry zero emotional weight and feel utterly boring and bland.
Note death tolls, or maybe even a book based on the perspective of an imperial citizen as Chaos invades his world and he (or she) ends up in something like a Word Bearer's "reeducation" camp.
Black library is about heroes and/or villains. Not victims. Thank hollywood.
Except that as this is a fairly independent company with their own publishing wing, they can do whatever the hell they want, tropes be damned. Although again, get some actual good authors in on the quality level of ADB and Dan Abnett or even higher, and censor nothing. Let them do whatever the hell they want that fits within the grimdark lore with no worrying of somebody being too squeamish.
me and some other people feel like Chaos should be darker and more mature
Which i don't understand, because it already is very dark if you read chaos novels and the actually good fluff (as opposed to the shallow codex entries, and "loyal marine hero shoots CSM redshirts all day long" novels). If you wish it should be darker, you should be able to point out what's wrong in the first place. 40k is not extremely well defined in many aspects, which is (as far as i can see) deliberate and interpretating things for yourself is acceptable. So why do you need somebody to tell you that chaos does bad stuff when you already know what "normal" humans have already done in real life?
I've read many of the Chaos Books, and outside of the stories themselves, the actions are far as the scale of evil is considered, is pretty damn boring. Again, Nanking. Red Army. Mongols. Etc.While I like the story of Talos' slow fall into madness (and more or less becoming his father incarnate), Octavia and Septimus losing their morality, Abaddon's rise, etc, the actions taken in those books is downright cute compared to atrocities I've read about or even seen pictures of. There's no horror to be found at all compared to that of real life. Hell, there's Imperial Factions that arguably committed worse acts then the Night Lords right up till the final battle and dumping multiple planets into chaos and isolation.
In summary, the only response Chaos and Chaos Space Marines give me right now in regards to them being "horrible murder death evil" is this.
And that's a crying shame, because they could do some seriously horrifying gak if they just either got a competent writer or stopped selling themselves short. Just look at the Omophagea. The possibilities that arise from such an organ is vast and the chance for some screwed up stuff is also immense.
(And that's headcanon. Which is both pointless, worthless, and a waste of time outside of something like creating your own Chapter, although even then there are actual physical models. At the end of the day, you can write all the fan fiction you want, but unless by the absurdly small chance the Black Library likes what you wrote, it won't be officially recognized. It isn't a part of GW's publishing. It's just another fan-written piece amongst a sea of such fiction. It may even be better written then the actual official material, but that doesn't make it any more true to the IP. It may be a good read, but it still isn't a part of the IP.)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/09 01:03:41
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
Ashiraya wrote: I dunno, Dead Sky Black Sun was pretty freaky.
I mean, the Savage Mortician part made me wtf a bit when I first read it, and then the Daemonculaba.
Is that disturbing enough for ya?
One book... Wow...
Hey, I can only speak for what I've actually read.
For my all my CSM fandom, I have not read a lot of their books.
And it's always something? I mean, I don't know about you guys, but grossly swollen daemonically infested mutated women forced to be surrogates for new CSM certainly is grim enough for me.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/10 01:37:26
Do space marines swear? F*** YES THEY DO! But the authors of the books are lame enough to replace REAL BADASS swear words with gak and frak....... booor-ING. The authors should look towards /TG/ for language tips for future books.
Destroy to create. Wreak havoc upon the infrastructure and bring life anew. Break through all barriers to realize there were no barriers. Realize there were only treacherous games. Learn the entirety of the game. Find the game makers; find the dick traitors/dictators.
Explode unto thy betrayers - ruin all their materials, dethrone and desecrate their persona, crush and manipulate their force, squeeze and torture their ideals to redirect their goals so as to dominate their souls, extract and perfect their fear so as to mitigate their strength and amplify their weakness.
Cut out the sickness, then imprison the wardens. Sing the song blood red and true. Create their destruction.
All for the hunt to dominate.
ImAGeek wrote:It exists enough for you, but people have different opinions to you...
I've seen you post this a lot in this thread... It's called discussion as Wyzilla is engaging in. There is nothing wrong with someone asking for clarification or "examples" of your feelings towards something. It helps give the other side some insight with what your thought is. It's not him saying "you're wrong for thinking that" but more "I have a different feeling than you about X, care to elaborate what you mean?"
DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote:Do space marines swear? F*** YES THEY DO! But the authors of the books are lame enough to replace REAL BADASS swear words with gak and frak....... booor-ING. The authors should look towards /TG/ for language tips for future books.
I'm fairly certain the authors know what real curse words are. If the company wished for their characters to use real, English curse words I'm sure they would. Instead they don't, so there must be a reason why. Censoring themselves with replacement words is fine in my opinion. It's quite clear what they mean by these words- and not necessary for them to print the actual curse words. If they have an opportunity to get the same message across without having to print words that this very forum would filter out, then why would they not take that opportunity? Doing the opposite would just be swearing for the sake of it. And is that really necessary?
I'd like to point out that I am no stranger to cursing however. I've heard more cursing and used it more in the last 4 years I've been in the Army than I have the rest of the years of my life put together by quite a large margin.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/16 22:30:04
ImAGeek wrote:It exists enough for you, but people have different opinions to you...
I've seen you post this a lot in this thread... It's called discussion as Wyzilla is engaging in. There is nothing wrong with someone asking for clarification or "examples" of your feelings towards something. It helps give the other side some insight with what your thought is. It's not him saying "you're wrong for thinking that" but more "I have a different feeling than you about X, care to elaborate what you mean?"
I gave some examples thank you, and my thoughts on it mostly echoed Wyzillas, which I stated, and they were dismissed. At that point I said I didn't feel like I needed to justify my opinion.
ImAGeek wrote:It exists enough for you, but people have different opinions to you...
I've seen you post this a lot in this thread... It's called discussion as Wyzilla is engaging in. There is nothing wrong with someone asking for clarification or "examples" of your feelings towards something. It helps give the other side some insight with what your thought is. It's not him saying "you're wrong for thinking that" but more "I have a different feeling than you about X, care to elaborate what you mean?"
I gave some examples thank you, and my thoughts on it mostly echoed Wyzillas, which I stated, and they were dismissed. At that point I said I didn't feel like I needed to justify my opinion.
I'm not saying you didn't. I read everything through and thought about my own feelings on the subject based on what everyone was saying. I was merely addressing that it may have been dismissed by Keep, but I was genuinely interested in what you had for examples not because I wanted to prove you wrong- but because I wanted to understand your view better.
ImAGeek wrote:It exists enough for you, but people have different opinions to you...
I've seen you post this a lot in this thread... It's called discussion as Wyzilla is engaging in. There is nothing wrong with someone asking for clarification or "examples" of your feelings towards something. It helps give the other side some insight with what your thought is. It's not him saying "you're wrong for thinking that" but more "I have a different feeling than you about X, care to elaborate what you mean?"
I gave some examples thank you, and my thoughts on it mostly echoed Wyzillas, which I stated, and they were dismissed. At that point I said I didn't feel like I needed to justify my opinion.
I'm not saying you didn't. I read everything through and thought about my own feelings on the subject based on what everyone was saying. I was merely addressing that it may have been dismissed by Keep, but I was genuinely interested in what you had for examples not because I wanted to prove you wrong- but because I wanted to understand your view better.
But I gave some examples, and I've said that I'd like to see more of the lovecraftian evil that chaos is meant to be, the creeping, inescapable horror of it. I genuinely don't know what else you're asking for, unless my examples aren't good enough for you, in which case were back to I don't have to justify my opinion.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/17 03:53:28
Pilau Rice wrote: D'oh, I think it was KNF and not UE, but he definitely calls him a gak
"Lorgar, you gak. Are you DRUGGED?"
Best line ever, the book should have ended there
I really like Guilliman in those two books. Really changed my outlook on him and the UM, they're one of my favourite legions now. Ironically so are the WB haha.
Yeah, it certainly puts him in good light, even liked him in The First Heretic, some of his brothers think he's smug and a bit of a tit but he's really not. He's just .. Guilliman.
I think the problem with Chaos is we get this
The inferno of my vengeance fills you! It will burn you, my bearers of the holy word, it will fill your veins with power and fire until Ultramar is in ashes. As my power flows in you, so too will I see what you see, feel what you feel and know what you know. With each death I will grow stronger. With every fortress burned my reach will stretch further. You will be my army of dark righteousness. You will be the Bloodborn and your name shall strike terror into the hearts of men! Spread throughout Ultramar and take my fire to the Ultramarines! Burn them from their fastnesses until no trace remains. This is my holy word!
Ok, it's a M'Kar speech from McNeil. I guess it's supposed to be ominous and foreboding, filled with DOOOOOOM, but to me it just comes across as drivel. Why can't Chaos marines/princes talk normally. Sometimes talking direct can be more threatening than using window dressing. I'm surprised that Chaos manages to get anything done if they have to stand around listening to these prolonged speeches about burning this and killing that. Perhaps that's why Abaddon hasn't be successful nor become a Daemon Prince, he knows that they waffle too much and don't get on with their gak when they are supposed to.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/17 10:34:16
Pilau Rice wrote: Yeah, it certainly puts him in good light, even liked him in The First Heretic, some of his brothers think he's smug and a bit of a tit but he's really not. He's just .. Guilliman.
I think the problem with Chaos is we get this
The inferno of my vengeance fills you! It will burn you, my bearers of the holy word, it will fill your veins with power and fire until Ultramar is in ashes. As my power flows in you, so too will I see what you see, feel what you feel and know what you know. With each death I will grow stronger. With every fortress burned my reach will stretch further. You will be my army of dark righteousness. You will be the Bloodborn and your name shall strike terror into the hearts of men! Spread throughout Ultramar and take my fire to the Ultramarines! Burn them from their fastnesses until no trace remains. This is my holy word!
Ok, it's a M'Kar speech from McNeil. I guess it's supposed to be ominous and foreboding, filled with DOOOOOOM, but to me it just comes across as drivel. Why can't Chaos marines/princes talk normally. Sometimes talking direct can be more threatening than using window dressing. I'm surprised that Chaos manages to get anything done if they have to stand around listening to these prolonged speeches about burning this and killing that. Perhaps that's why Abaddon hasn't be successful nor become a Daemon Prince, he knows that they waffle too much and don't get on with their gak when they are supposed to.
Chaos Speeches can be potentially awesomer than "Cursewords", Like Azariah Kyras' speech in Dawn of War 2 Retribution.
That "Blood for the Blood god" bit at the end makes my blood freeze.
"Why? It is as I have already said, We knew from the beginning we could not stand, But it did not matter, 'Iron Within, Iron Without'. We made them pay".
Chaos Speeches can be potentially awesomer than "Cursewords", Like Azariah Kyras' speech in Dawn of War 2 Retribution.
Eh, I was like, hurry up Kyras and get to the point. Which was the end part, which was good. I went out and murdered a puppy after that.
All I could think during his babble was ... SSSIINNDRRRIIIIIIIIIII
I didn't say that Chaos Speeches need colourful language, just to be less dumb.
Yeah Sindri was obviously better, But Kyras is A Khorne Librarian I think he's a tad confused.
"Why? It is as I have already said, We knew from the beginning we could not stand, But it did not matter, 'Iron Within, Iron Without'. We made them pay".
And the word F*CK is way better than the word frak - thats a fact!
Destroy to create. Wreak havoc upon the infrastructure and bring life anew. Break through all barriers to realize there were no barriers. Realize there were only treacherous games. Learn the entirety of the game. Find the game makers; find the dick traitors/dictators.
Explode unto thy betrayers - ruin all their materials, dethrone and desecrate their persona, crush and manipulate their force, squeeze and torture their ideals to redirect their goals so as to dominate their souls, extract and perfect their fear so as to mitigate their strength and amplify their weakness.
Cut out the sickness, then imprison the wardens. Sing the song blood red and true. Create their destruction.
All for the hunt to dominate.
