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I think that both Ghazzy and the Orkanaughts would be worth their points (or at least much closer) if they had the Effigy rule. I mean, Ghazzy is the most revered Ork in the galaxy, and he doesn't even have fearless? He basically does nothing to buff the troops around him, despite being the best Ork of all time, and a LoW. The Orkanaughts are built in the image of the Ork Gods, and the Orks aren't inspired by them? I feel like the effigy rule would have been logical to add to Ghazzy and the Orkanaughts and would have made them worth their points (or would have greatly helped).

Sidenote: Can someone please explain why Ghazzy's Big Shoota isn't twin-linked? That has always irked me.

because they had to find one more way to slap a big F*CK YOU on the orks.

Mork/Gorkanaughts weren't enough, so they nerfed Battlewagonz Dakkajets, KFFs, and Ghazzy.

I think that effigy would indeed be a really nice rule. It would make the naughts exactly what they should be: a centerpiece of your army. Probably not OP but would make me consider taking them.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
because they had to find one more way to slap a big F*CK YOU on the orks.

Mork/Gorkanaughts weren't enough, so they nerfed Battlewagonz Dakkajets, KFFs, and Ghazzy.

Out of those, the KFF wasn't a nerf. I'm a little irked so many people keep harping on this. The damn thing made no sense the first time, that it would include an ENTIRE unit, just because a single model from that unit's big toe was touching the bubble, so all 29 other dudes magically got coverage. Not to mention the way the meta has shifted, cover saves are not that great anymore. Invuls seem to be king. So getting 5+ Invuls was a blessing, and I'm damn glad to have it for the same cost as before. It forces you to be more careful with model placements. Not just conga line an entire unit because Steve in the far back is touching the bubble, so George over 20 inches away is somehow also covered...

Battlewagons themselves did not get nerfed. They got a slight point hike, which is fair due to their armor values. The Deffrolla was an excessive nerf. I feel with the changes to flamers overall, the Deffrolla didn't need to be hit with the bat. It was old Easy Bake Ovens with the Rolla that made the Rolla so damn good.

I'm not sure how I feel on the Dakka Jet change. Firing double shots on a Waaagh was pretty good. I think with the option for unlimited Waaaghs with the new formations, Dakka Jets would become far too abuseable and would be near auto includes in every list.

Ghazzy really wasn't that great to begin with, so I agree his nerf was hugely unwarranted. No excuses there.

As for Mork/Gorkanaughts, I don't feel they are as bad as people say. The Gork is worse by comparison to the Mork, simply due to the KFF option for the Mork. I think they are a tad over costed, which would make them more appealing to many if they got a small point drop. Giving them Effigy would be nice, to help regain mass Fearless. Again, Fearless for the most part is being dialed back it seems, to make Fear actually relevant again, which isn't exactly a bad thing either. With how much Fearless was being handed out, it was causing many models/units to effectively be over costed, as their special rule would never be used.

Naughts I think just need a points drop. I'd actually be OK with them losing Troop capacity as well. The only unit worth putting in is a Burna squad with 3 Meks to keep it repaired, but even then, that's costly to keep an already too expensive and not durable enough vehicle alive. If they were Assault Vehicles, then I'd be far more appreciative of the carry capacity.

As for fixed to Ghaz, I think just bring him back exactly the way he was before with some boosts to make him worth his gross point cost. What boosts? I honestly can't say. But something to make him worth a damn. Honestly, a built in Invul would be a damn start. He should also be a bit tougher than a Warboss too. He's sposed to be the biggest and the baddest, but he's really not that much better than a normal Mega Boss...

I understand where your coming from in regards to the KFF Nerf, but it was in fact a NERF. Yes it became a 5+ invul which is nice and all, but losing the ability to give 90+ boyz a 5+ cover save was a nerf. yeah it makes sense but it doesn't change the fact that it reduced its abilities. Also, Dakkajets just plain suck without the Waaagh special rule. 9 shots hitting on 4s is ok but then you think about the weapon strength and AP and you realize the ork list is already saturated with similar options.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
I understand where your coming from in regards to the KFF Nerf, but it was in fact a NERF. Yes it became a 5+ invul which is nice and all, but losing the ability to give 90+ boyz a 5+ cover save was a nerf. yeah it makes sense but it doesn't change the fact that it reduced its abilities. Also, Dakkajets just plain suck without the Waaagh special rule. 9 shots hitting on 4s is ok but then you think about the weapon strength and AP and you realize the ork list is already saturated with similar options.

*sigh* We've had this discussion before, at worst the KFF is a sidegrade, not a nerf. I don't know if you've noticed but the KFF had already lost much of its value by the end of 6th edition as ignores cover had become ridiculously prevalent, with Baleflamer Heldrakes from Chaos, Markerlights and SMS ignoring cover out the wazoo from Tau, Eldar Wave Serpent cheese shields also ignored cover, and the IG had Wyverns and even orders that would allow units to ignore cover. There were so many things that could bypass it that it became increasingly irrelevant against most modern armies. It also didn't help that it paled in comparison to the venomthrope's ability to give cover at the time as Shrouded often meant 3+ cover just for hiding behind intervening models and it got even crazier when you were put in terrain. IMO, the change to only including models rather than units within the raidus was well worth for the change to an invuln. save so you could actually use it the vast majority of the time. Also, you're neglecting that the KFF can now be taken on platforms that can increase its range and potentially mobility, with the Morkanaut the area you cover is far more sizable than what you do before without having to smush units together that make them extra vulnerable to blast templates or Gork forbid torrent flamer templates. Having a Big Mek with a KFF on a bike also gives you the option to make up for it not being projected out of vehicles and being able to keep up with the rest of the army. Also, at this point the Painboy takes over giving the 5+ save to 90+ boyz anyways so I'm not sure why you seem so upset. Things change. We Orkses adapt. Whinin' is fer squishy oomies!

Well, maybe efiggy for Ghazzy as he's supposed to be the biggest baddest ork out there and something like reroll morale and price drop for naughts. They're not stompas for effigy after all.

 koooaei wrote:
Well, maybe efiggy for Ghazzy as he's supposed to be the biggest baddest ork out there and something like reroll morale and price drop for naughts. They're not stompas for effigy after all.

I'd feel like a 12" bubble of giving Stubborn to units with 'Ere We Go might be better for Ghazghkull, Fearless should be a commodity or at least limited to certain units and items. Ghazghkull's warlord trait already gives a 1 turn fearless boost to everyone on the board with 'Ere We Go! so I think that represents that better. Ghazghkull's main issue is that he doesn't act enough as a force multiplier nor is he tough enough (outside of the one turn 2++ save) to be a beatstick, so he's in this weird liminal position where he's iffy at everything, especially at his points cost.

painboy can at most give 30 orks a FNP, if you put him in a tide thats when he gets to give 100+ boyz the FNP. The old KFF gave the 5+ CS to any unit witha model with in his bubble. that meant you could literally space out 4 units of boyz and have them all getting at least a 5+ CS. your right though that a lot of armies started getting ignores cover weapons. My personal opinion is that it is nice to have a 5+ for hundreds then a 5+ for a dozen or so.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
painboy can at most give 30 orks a FNP, if you put him in a tide thats when he gets to give 100+ boyz the FNP. The old KFF gave the 5+ CS to any unit witha model with in his bubble. that meant you could literally space out 4 units of boyz and have them all getting at least a 5+ CS. your right though that a lot of armies started getting ignores cover weapons. My personal opinion is that it is nice to have a 5+ for hundreds then a 5+ for a dozen or so.

I understand this, but with things like double CAD or just taking the Ork Horde Formation you're able to take multiple painboyz for multiple squads if desired, which for a measly price of 50 ppm allows you to make a save on TOP of cover saves you might get from terrain and more importantly actually plays a role in CC. And at this point Ork lists are moving away from multiple footslogging groups of 20-30 boys anyways given how unwieldy they are and outpaced by either mechanized battlewagon lists or the green tide formation's efficiency. Again it was silly that the old KFF extend its shield to an entire unit just from a single model and its an outdated relic from 4th-5th edition when 4+ cover was easier to obtain. Now you actually need to use your noggin in placement rather than just slapping it down like a no-brainer, which I find to be terrible codex design.

Aye, the problem though was that they took that away, and then they nerfed so much of the old codex so that Foot sloggin is almost impossible now. I use huge boyz squads as a deterrent now more then anything. Battlewagon full of lootas witha boyz squad screening it means that people don't get to assault it without getting shot to pieces and then counter charged by boyz.

Not to mention they singles out Orcs to not let our field extend beyond the hull of our vehicle...

I would love fearless back. From Effigy or how ever you want to give it to me. I do like the new mob rule though.

I'd like to see Ghaz be able to attack at initiative in close combat, even though it would still be I2 it's better then nothing. He's so damned big a power claw should be nothing to swing around. It's been mentioned before in previous threads, and perhaps make him a monstrous creature?

FratHammer wrote:
Not to mention they singles out Orcs to not let our field extend beyond the hull of our vehicle...

I would love fearless back. From Effigy or how ever you want to give it to me. I do like the new mob rule though.

Which again, is an old relic of game design. The shield shouldn't extend from the hull of the vehicle to begin with. If you want a big extending bubble, use the Morkanaught which is designed to give a cascading bubble, or put the Mek on a Bike and ride along with the vehicles. Again, Grimskul said it best, it made the KFF a no brainer. You take a BW, stick a KFF mek inside it, and keep your other vehicles JUST close enough so the bubble scrapes a single wheel, and they get the save. It's dumb on paper, and dumb in reality, and is terrible design in hindsight.

And yet it made ork vehicles remotely survivable. Damn near all our vehicles are open topped and none of them besides the Naughts have AV higher then 12 on the sides and rear. That gave our guys a 1/3 chance to stop massive amounts of penetrating hits. To many armies are now saturated with S7 shooting and a lot of it is AP2 which means its fairly easy to pop our vehicles and then on a 5+ explode them. I mean hell, when they got rid of Ramshackle on trukks it made them almost unplayable. 1/6 chance now of reducing a pen to a glance is nothing when bolters can take it out.