Age of Sigmar - Slaanesh Replaced? plus big book, stormcast archers, dismounted celestan

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**streamdragon**

Samurai_Eduh wrote:
You know, the balance thing can be easily fixed:

- No more than X Warscrolls allowed (varies depending on game size)
- No more than Y Warscrolls can have the Hero, Monster, etc. keyword
- Warscrolls with more than 10 models counts as an additional warscroll for every 10 models above 10.

Boom.

10 Warriors of Chaos = 1 Warscroll

10 goblins = 1 Warscroll

Balance!

**TheAuldGrump**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
The thing that surprises me is people's reaction to unbound being in this game. 40k has unbound, it sold reasonably well, why wouldn't GW transfer that over to fantasy.

there are also a lot of folks that loathe Unbound.

For me, Unbound was the straw that broke the camel's back - and why, after collecting Dark Angels since 1st edition 40K, I finally sold them off.

And if what I am seeing locally is true elsewhere... it is why a lot of folks dropped the game at the same time.

At least for Fantasy, there are games with decent rules that the figures can be used with - 40K is not as well covered. (Warpath is fun, but it is in no way in a position to take over people's 40K collections.)

A lot of local folks gave up on Warhammer with the most recent edition, as well, moving en masse to Kings of War.

I really do not see Age of Sigmar reversing the situation. I think Warhammer is done.

And, yes, you really are one of the few people that I have heard say anything nice about Dreadfleet. (Well, aside from the
figures - I have seen few if any complaints about the minis; it is the rules that made people give it a big thumbs down. The figures are fine.)

The Auld Grump

**streamdragon**

Also, anyone notice that the Blood Warriors aren't human?

**Enkiel**

streamdragon wrote:
Samurai_Eduh wrote:
You know, the balance thing can be easily fixed:

- No more than X Warscrolls allowed (varies depending on game size)
- No more than Y Warscrolls can have the Hero, Monster, etc. keyword
- Warscrolls with more than 10 models counts as an additional warscroll for every 10 models above 10.

Boom.

10 Warriors of Chaos = 1 Warscroll

10 goblins = 1 Warscroll

Balance!

wow, you're lucky ; you've seen the warscroll before everyone else of goblins and WoC?

who said all scroll would be 10 man? from what we seen on the AoS box, they range from 3 to 10 models, at the very least.....

**Nocturnus**

Agamemnon2 wrote:
Good god. You went and blew it up, you maniacs! Damn you! Damn you all to hell!

Ahem. I've been away from the hobby for a while. Regardless, this is horrendously disappointing. Warhammer Fantasy was doing poorly, we all knew it, but this? This is madness.

Have an exalt!

**RoninXiC**

All scrolls are:
1 Model = 1 Scroll
1 unit = 1 Scroll

It doesnt matter what kind of unit. All units we've seen so far CAN BE AS BIG AS YOU WANT.

**Chopxsticks**

pretre wrote:
Wonderwolf wrote:
Fair enough with the 3". But the shooting bugs me (maybe it's the 40K conditioning).

So that Archer is face-to-face with a crazed Khorne ~~Berzerker~~ Blood Warrior, but quietly takes his Bow, shoots an arrow at the Bloodletters over yonder, before getting back to fighting the Blood Warrior?

On the other hand, if there's a bunch of khorne dudes right in front of you, you're gonna shoot them with your bows before getting cut down and keep shooting until you are.

I agree, adds to the strategy. Do you sacrifice your bowmen to shoot the bloodletters moving in on a more valuable unit knowing the Blood warriors are going to destroy them if the bowmen dont shoot them first?? Options! I like it.

**streamdragon**

Enkiel wrote:
streamdragon wrote:
Samurai_Eduh wrote:
You know, the balance thing can be easily fixed:

- No more than X Warscrolls allowed (varies depending on game size)
- No more than Y Warscrolls can have the Hero, Monster, etc. keyword
- Warscrolls with more than 10 models counts as an additional warscroll for every 10 models above 10.

Boom.

10 Warriors of Chaos = 1 Warscroll

10 goblins = 1 Warscroll

Balance!

wow, you're lucky ; you've seen the warscroll before everyone else of goblins and WoC?

who said all scroll would be 10 man? from what we seen on the AoS box, they range from 3 to 10 models, at the very least.....

Read the Warscrolls that have been posted. They have literally no number ranges beyond "1" or "1 or more". The model counts have, as far as we can tell, pretty much nothing to do with the Warscroll beyond "do you have at least 1".

So the idea that "Warscrolls with more than 10 models counts as an additional warscroll for every 10 models above 10" would mean that a Warscroll with only 10 models should be equivalent to any other Warscroll of 10 models. And since we're limiting by Warscrolls in the post I quoted, I'm demonstrating why that doesn't work.

**judgedoug**

Chopxsticks wrote:
pretre wrote:
Wonderwolf wrote:
Fair enough with the 3". But the shooting bugs me (maybe it's the 40K conditioning).

So that Archer is face-to-face with a crazed Khorne ~~Berzerker~~ Blood Warrior, but quietly takes his Bow, shoots an arrow at the Bloodletters over yonder, before getting back to fighting the Blood Warrior?

On the other hand, if there's a bunch of khorne dudes right in front of you, you're gonna shoot them with your bows before getting cut down and keep shooting until you are.

I agree, adds to the strategy. Do you sacrifice your bowmen to shoot the bloodletters moving in on a more valuable unit knowing the Blood warriors are going to destroy them if the bowmen dont shoot them first?? Options! I like it.

Or just field ten thousand bowmen models. Or more!

**streamdragon**

RoninXiC wrote:
All scrolls are:
1 Model = 1 Scroll
1 unit = 1 Scroll

It doesnt matter what kind of unit. All units we've seen so far CAN BE AS BIG AS YOU WANT.

Well, except for the ones that are 1 and only 1 model like the Lord-Relictor or the Lord whateverman and his Drakoth.

**unmercifulconker**

Sad to say the points thing for me is a deal breaker if there is no explanation on it but I imagine there will be some balancing, problem solving, helpful statement that will clear our minds, theres just gotta be, tell me its gonna be alright.

**Hulksmash**

Bad news: Balancing will be a massive project that someone has to take on if this is ever going to be played anywhere.

Good news: Unlike 40k there aren't any real army building rules already so however it's formatted won't have an entrenched position to fall back on.

**RoninXiC**

streamdragon wrote:
RoninXiC wrote:
All scrolls are:
1 Model = 1 Scroll
1 unit = 1 Scroll

It doesnt matter what kind of unit. All units we've seen so far CAN BE AS BIG AS YOU WANT.

Well, except for the ones that are 1 and only 1 model like the Lord-Relictor or the Lord whateverman and his Drakoth.

Isnt that what I wrote?

1 Scroll is either 1 dude or an unlimited number of models in 1 unit.

**Red Viper**

judgedoug wrote:

Other than the 5 already posted and the rulebook posted?

Work blocks most image sharing sites. I could see the ones in pretre's post for some reason. I guess I can't see some others.

For example, in your "Ta daa" post... that's all I see.. not even a broken image or something. So if there's something else there, I can't see it at all.

My apologies, I'll try to check them out tonight.

Judging from how others are reacting... it doesn't look good.

**StormKing**

Not sure if posted yet (haven't seen it) but here is what the future may hold about the product range and GW as a whole

via an anonymous source on Faeit 212
No doubt you get many emails claiming to know all sorts of information from
secret sources and the like, so here’s another one for you to add to the
collection. I’ve become somewhat cynical with how things are currently
being run in the design studio, specifically with the direction of
Warhammer Fantasy, I will be following the lead of others and won’t be
staying for much longer, I’ve one final project that I’ve always wanted to
be involved with and that I want to see through. As something to provide an
initial point of reference, Jervis has been reading Paradise Lost recently,
last Thursday (the last time I was in the office) a copy was sat on his
desk under a 10-up Space Marine helmet he uses as a paper weight.

It has been interesting watching from the inside looking out. Particularly
over the last few days, all those leaked bits of information really seem to
have got a lot of people talking. The reasons for the changes to Warhammer
are well documented, and they were not something that was decided in a whim
on a rainy Thursday morning. The End Times were there to let us wrap things
up, try out a few new things and then draw a line under what has gone
before. Personally I loved End Times and would have liked this period of
the game to have continued for longer and really explored.

The new start that begins imminently is just that, a new start for
everyone, will we lose existing players? Almost certainly. Will be attract
new players? We wouldn’t have entered into this project if we didn’t think
we could. This is not an evolution as we’ve had with previous editions,
this is a whole new beast, think Christopher Nolan’s Batman trilogy
compared to what had gone before. Some won’t like the new look of the
miniatures, or the rule set, the role of magic and spells is certainly
going to be something that divides the community, I miss the old system and
think we’ve got the changes to magic wrong.

So why come out of the shadow, I’m bound by a contract, I can’t be giving
clues as to what you’re going to see next month or the month after, what I
want to do is to say that not everyone working on this project agrees with
the way things have gone. I’m quite happy to tell anyone that will listen
that I don’t like the aesthetic or direction that the imagery has moved in,
I’m not the only one, many of those I work feel the same, many have had
models that they have spent hours and hours creating and rendering canned
because they don’t fit with the imagery going forwards. Artwork that will
never see the light of day and narratives that will never be used..

I want the community to bear in mind that store managers have not been involved in
the process, ranting at them because you don’t like this or that in the new
game really isn’t helpful and isn’t fair on them, they are doing their job,
many I know will openly tell you what they think of the new game, this
isn’t Company policy, we’re not the Thought Police, we can’t control what
people say, not yet anyway.

Oh and while I’m out of my shackles, something to ponder on, all the “new
Forces” have not been completed, can you imagine how much work needs to go
into restarting a game like Warhammer. No, what you’ll see over the coming
weeks and months are selected highlights from the next 9-12 months, the
success of the initial releases will determine the rate at which subsequent
releases are made and the development of the range as a whole. Numbers have
been thrown around internally as to what sort of sales need to be made in
the first month for the AoS release to be called a success, our jobs depend
on this success, we have not developed a product that is designed to fail
as come have commented recently.

A final glancing blow, the AoS rules and what they will build into in the
future are not designed for peoples existing miniature collections. That
wasn’t part of the remit, my advice is to use existing collections to proxy
the new range, the material to be released for existing armies has not been
extensively tested mainly because in the process of testing we found that
too much work was needed to get things right. The nature of the new game
makes certain units redundant as they don’t offer any real advantage over
other units anymore. The webstore will be running down stock levels over
the next 3-4 months, recent print runs will keep popular parts of the range
available for much longer than that so no need to panic buy, unless you
love your square bases that is

Feel free to use whatever information you see fit from my ramblings. The
whole 9 realms that are being reported elsewhere is total rubbish, as are
those names of the factions and races, do people really think we're that
dumb?

**migooo**

That's suspicious sorry a GW insider probably wouldn't comment on it.

**StormKing**

migooo wrote:
That's suspicious sorry a GW insider probably wouldn't comment on it.

Just passing along leaks, comments etc that people might find interesting. Could be legit, might not be too who knows but it gives us something to think about

**Thud**

TL;DR: I work at the studio, AoS is controversial, Jervis has a Space Marine hat as a paperweight, everything will become awesome, we totally tried to make an awesome game.

**streamdragon**

RoninXiC wrote:
streamdragon wrote:
RoninXiC wrote:
All scrolls are:
1 Model = 1 Scroll
1 unit = 1 Scroll

It doesnt matter what kind of unit. All units we've seen so far CAN BE AS BIG AS YOU WANT.

Well, except for the ones that are 1 and only 1 model like the Lord-Relictor or the Lord whateverman and his Drakoth.

Isnt that what I wrote?

1 Scroll is either 1 dude or an unlimited number of models in 1 unit.

Ah, yes, I misunderstood your post then. When you said "All units we've seen so far can be as big as you want", I was clarifying that some units can't. They are limited to 1 model.

**pretre**

Ahh Natfka...

**Hulksmash**

Thud wrote:
TL;DR: I work at the studio, AoS is controversial, Jervis has a Space Marine hat as a paperweight, everything will become awesome, we totally tried to make an awesome game.

....without a balancing mechanic....

Dangit, now I've gotten bitter and cynical!

**Boss Salvage**

RoninXiC wrote:"comp"?
Make it functional. MAKE IT WORK?!

For those who haven't been playing WHFB during 8E, we learned a long time ago that the game needed some limitations placed on it to make it functional in a competitive sense. First thing to go was random terrain, then it was restrictions of various severity, and here at the end we've sort of settled into ETC (restrictions + house rules in regards to terrain LOS and the magic phase, mostly) and Swedish comp.

pretre wrote:I think the Swedish thing mentioned a bit back is probably most likely.

In Swedish comp, you can make an army out of whatever is legal to your army (so in WHAOS that's I guess everything) up to a decided points level, but everything you take has a price in points associated with it. These points are determined based on the effectiveness of troops and options and synergies in the game itself, so more effective things (which in an unrestricted meta hit the table with unfortunate regularity) cost more points and less effective things cost less. Once you've got a big tally of the points your choices cost, you subtract that from 300 and divide by 10, giving you a Swedish comp score vaguely from 0-30, though it's possible to go negative and impossible to stay at 30.

From there, an event can do stuff like declare only armies of X or higher points can play, give bonus victory points for softer (higher score) armies fighting harder ones, and so on. Swedish comp can be another set of restrictions (with the X points min thing), but also a true comp score, which I know is a dirty word to probably every 40k player journeying into these previously-square-based lands.

To adapt Swedish we'll need to do a lot of grinding to get good Swe points associated with stuff, but given GW's track record making armies I'm sure Obvious Things will arise very quickly. The real issue is going to be dictating what a competitive army size is (by number of warscrolls I guess), and then restricting the pool of units one army can be drawn from, at the least to one realm or faction or whatever.

- Salvage

**Dullspork**

Thud wrote:
TL;DR: I work at the studio, AoS is controversial, Jervis has a Space Marine hat as a paperweight, everything will become awesome, we totally tried to make an awesome game.

That's not what I read. To me it was more... "Yup, this is going to piss people off and a lot of you will go away now. We're trying something new and we have our fingers crossed that people will like it. If they don't then we all lose our jobs."

**streamdragon**

Thud wrote:
TL;DR: I work at the studio, AoS is controversial, Jervis has a Space Marine hat as a paperweight, everything will become awesome, we totally tried to make an awesome game.

You forgot: "your old models and armies are after thoughts that we don't really plan to support"

**porkuslime**

streamdragon wrote:
Prosecutors

Description - A unit of Prosecutors can have any number of models. They are armed with Celestial Hammers. Celestial Hammers can be used as either a missile weapon or a melee weapon and can be used as both in the same turn.

Prosecutor Prime - The leader of this unit is the Prosecutor Prime. A Prosecutor Prime makes 3 melee attacks rather than 2 when he uses his Celestial Hammer as a melee weapon.

Fly - Prosecutors can fly.

Heralds of Righteousness - Roll 3 dice instead of 2 dice when determining the charge move for this unit. In addition, you can declare a charge with this unit if it is within 18" of the enemy rather than 12".

Celestial Hammers - You can reroll hit rolls of 1 for models from this unit.

Keywords: Order, Celestial, Human, Stormcast Eternal, Prosecutors

Waht..

Prosecutors don't get a bonus versus Chapterhouse?

**Thud**

Dullspork wrote:
Thud wrote:
TL;DR: I work at the studio, AoS is controversial, Jervis has a Space Marine hat as a paperweight, everything will become awesome, we totally tried to make an awesome game.

That's not what I read. To me it was more... "Yup, this is going to piss people off and a lot of you will go away now. We're trying something new and we have our fingers crossed that people will like it. If they don't then we all lose our jobs."

It's all made-up BS anyway, so it doesn't really matter.

**Wonderwolf**

streamdragon wrote:

10 Warriors of Chaos = 1 Warscroll

10 goblins = 1 Warscroll

Balance!

Not quite.

1 Warscroll = 10+ (no upper limit) Warriors of Chaos.
1 Warscroll = 10+ (no upper limit) Goblins.

**RoninXiC**

Who cares about Warriors of Chaos.

You can have an unlimted amount of Juggernauts, Demigryphons or any other kind of ubermonstrous cav.

**agnosto**

streamdragon wrote:
Thud wrote:
TL;DR: I work at the studio, AoS is controversial, Jervis has a Space Marine hat as a paperweight, everything will become awesome, we totally tried to make an awesome game.

You forgot: "your old models and armies are after thoughts that we don't really plan to support"

That's the only believable part about the whole thing.

**docdoom77**

No balancing is a deal breaker for me. I really hope I can get some of my local gamers to move to Kings of War. I do love that game.