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2015/04/08 21:33:04
Subject: Which Loyalist Primarch's Return Would Destroy the Imperium?
2BlackJack1 wrote: I think a good question to ask is: Would any citizens really stick up for the High Lords against a primarch? I mean, historical mortal that is practically a minor god in his own right, against some dude on Terran that doesn't care about the average citizen.
How much do average citizens know about the heresy,'the Primarchs, horus, etc? I was under the impression that it's not really common knowledge.
They know as much as we know about God and the Devil.
It's a religious text to them. They know the story that was written down for them by heart and in it the Primarchs are the angelic sons of God who fended off his wayward, less capable, sons and banished them from the Imperium through divine might.
And I know how I'd react if someone appeared claiming to be an angel...
2015/04/08 21:35:57
Subject: Which Loyalist Primarch's Return Would Destroy the Imperium?
2BlackJack1 wrote: I think a good question to ask is: Would any citizens really stick up for the High Lords against a primarch? I mean, historical mortal that is practically a minor god in his own right, against some dude on Terran that doesn't care about the average citizen.
How much do average citizens know about the heresy,'the Primarchs, horus, etc? I was under the impression that it's not really common knowledge.
They know as much as we know about God and the Devil.
It's a religious text to them. They know the story that was written down for them by heart and in it the Primarchs are the angelic sons of God who fended off his wayward, less capable, sons and banished them from the Imperium through divine might.
And I know how I'd react if someone appeared claiming to be an angel...
True, the skepticism would be there. There would also be fanatics. In the event of any Primarch's return, chaos would reign for a while. I just wonder at which one would cause irreparable damage simply by stepping through the door.
2015/04/08 21:51:13
Subject: Which Loyalist Primarch's Return Would Destroy the Imperium?
2BlackJack1 wrote: I think a good question to ask is: Would any citizens really stick up for the High Lords against a primarch? I mean, historical mortal that is practically a minor god in his own right, against some dude on Terran that doesn't care about the average citizen.
How much do average citizens know about the heresy,'the Primarchs, horus, etc? I was under the impression that it's not really common knowledge.
They know as much as we know about God and the Devil.
It's a religious text to them. They know the story that was written down for them by heart and in it the Primarchs are the angelic sons of God who fended off his wayward, less capable, sons and banished them from the Imperium through divine might.
And I know how I'd react if someone appeared claiming to be an angel...
That's a really bad comparison. Primarchs are regularly described as having an almost palpable aura that sets them apart, not to mention their great physical size, quickness of intellect, and skill in battle. When you can make the breath of veteran space marines catch in their throat, and practically freeze mortals with your sheer presence, I don't think you're going to have many people saying, 'He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy!', so to speak.
2015/04/08 21:57:19
Subject: Which Loyalist Primarch's Return Would Destroy the Imperium?
2BlackJack1 wrote: I think a good question to ask is: Would any citizens really stick up for the High Lords against a primarch? I mean, historical mortal that is practically a minor god in his own right, against some dude on Terran that doesn't care about the average citizen.
How much do average citizens know about the heresy,'the Primarchs, horus, etc? I was under the impression that it's not really common knowledge.
They know as much as we know about God and the Devil.
It's a religious text to them. They know the story that was written down for them by heart and in it the Primarchs are the angelic sons of God who fended off his wayward, less capable, sons and banished them from the Imperium through divine might.
And I know how I'd react if someone appeared claiming to be an angel...
That's a really bad comparison. Primarchs are regularly described as having an almost palpable aura that sets them apart, not to mention their great physical size, quickness of intellect, and skill in battle. When you can make the breath of veteran space marines catch in their throat, and practically freeze mortals with your sheer presence, I don't think you're going to have many people saying, 'He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy!', so to speak.
Yeah but I'm sure other things could have that effect on people in 40k too, psychic stuff, Slaanesh daemons, and how many random citizens are going to see them in battle, or see their intellect and stuff? They'd just probably hear 'oh some guy turned up the other side of the planet claiming he's a primarch'.
Good points though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/08 22:57:40
2015/04/08 23:00:52
Subject: Which Loyalist Primarch's Return Would Destroy the Imperium?
Yeah but I'm sure other things could have that effect on people in 40k too, psychic stuff, Slaanesh daemons, and how many random citizens are going to see them in battle, or see their intellect and stuff? They'd just probably hear 'oh some guy turned up the other side of the planet claiming he's a primarch'.
Two points.
Firstly, if Dorn shows up with a thousand Imperial Fists and a thousand Crimson Fists in tow, nobody is really going to turn around and say, 'Yeah, but PROVE you're their Primarch!'.
Secondly, no leader needs to 'prove' their existence to that many people at the end of the day. Rogal Dorn will lock lock himself in with planetary governors and military commanders, who will then say, 'He's the real deal' (because no planetary governor is going to look at Rogal Dorn himself surrounded by his bodyguard and say, 'Prove it') and disseminate the facts to the rest of the populace with appropriate picts.
I mean, I've never seen David Cameron, but I'm reasonably sure he exists, and formulate my political views accordingly. The Imperium will be no different. You could say that DC is different to a figure not seen for ten millenia, but as you've so aptly pointed out, this is a different universe altogether, in which immortality/the next best thing is a known fact (i.e. every space marine). So it's really not that unbelievable.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/08 23:01:44
2015/04/08 23:05:15
Subject: Which Loyalist Primarch's Return Would Destroy the Imperium?
None of the other primarchs, except perhaps Dorn, would bother trying to reform the Imperium.
Russ might consider it, if he felt the High Lords had grown corrupt. If the Inquisition tried to pull a trick on him like they did the Great Wolf on Armageddon, Russ might very conclude they needed to be disbanded, and begin to take....steps.
Remember, Russ is loyal only to the Emperor. If he sees them as having deviated from what he thinks the Emperor would have wanted, he wouldn't hesitate to strike them down.
Exactly. Russ was the Emperor's executioner. He was extremely loyal, but only to the Emperor himself. Russ would never serve anyone, he is the stubborn kind of guy that gaks on people telling him what to do. He even defied the Emperor when they first met.
If Russ were to return and feel that the High Lords no longer represent the Emperor's will, he would be very likely to take action against them. Not to mention that he also has quite a temper. When he hears what the Inquisition and Grey Knights attacked the Space Wolves, he could very well fly into a great rage and attempt to take revenge.
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2015/04/08 23:50:35
Subject: Which Loyalist Primarch's Return Would Destroy the Imperium?
Desubot wrote: I want to agree with Russ being the worst possible one.
He would probably be a horrible politician and would probably grind it out with the HLoT.
His special snowflake legion would get big and freak out the rest of the imperium (although i forget if he was for or against rowboats book)
He was definitely against right? Or the SW would follow the codex, when they didn't even break the legion up.
2015/04/09 00:00:16
Subject: Which Loyalist Primarch's Return Would Destroy the Imperium?
Desubot wrote: I want to agree with Russ being the worst possible one.
He would probably be a horrible politician and would probably grind it out with the HLoT.
His special snowflake legion would get big and freak out the rest of the imperium (although i forget if he was for or against rowboats book)
He was definitely against right? Or the SW would follow the codex, when they didn't even break the legion up.
Then yeah
He is 100% the worst possible person to come back on the imperial side.
None of them. Though some would create more chaos (little c, not big C Chaos) than others.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2015/04/09 00:05:51
Subject: Which Loyalist Primarch's Return Would Destroy the Imperium?
Melissia wrote: None of them. Though some would create more chaos (little c, not big C Chaos) than others.
I dont know
i think girly man was a decent politician. i think if anyone he could smooosh his way with the HLoT and actually work with them rather than against them.
The rest i can easily see plenty of friction with the powers at be.
2BlackJack1 wrote: I think a good question to ask is: Would any citizens really stick up for the High Lords against a primarch? I mean, historical mortal that is practically a minor god in his own right, against some dude on Terran that doesn't care about the average citizen.
How much do average citizens know about the heresy,'the Primarchs, horus, etc? I was under the impression that it's not really common knowledge.
They know as much as we know about God and the Devil.
It's a religious text to them. They know the story that was written down for them by heart and in it the Primarchs are the angelic sons of God who fended off his wayward, less capable, sons and banished them from the Imperium through divine might.
And I know how I'd react if someone appeared claiming to be an angel...
Yeah but the citizens of the imperium know of the primarchs existance. They know they were real. They honor the name of Sanguinius and go see the body of Roboute. In a world of 8 foot tall super humans and aliens, I might be more likely to believe it was a Primarch than if an angel showed up
2015/04/09 00:08:21
Subject: Which Loyalist Primarch's Return Would Destroy the Imperium?
Melissia wrote: None of them. Though some would create more chaos (little c, not big C Chaos) than others.
I dont know
i think girly man was a decent politician. i think if anyone he could smooosh his way with the HLoT and actually work with them rather than against them.
The rest i can easily see plenty of friction with the powers at be.
Oh, I coudl see tons of friction. But they wouldn't want to destroy the Imperium itself. Reform maybe, but not destroy. Some of them aren't competent enough to reform without harming the Imperium, but none of them would actually destroy it.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2015/04/09 00:18:30
Subject: Which Loyalist Primarch's Return Would Destroy the Imperium?
2BlackJack1 wrote: I think a good question to ask is: Would any citizens really stick up for the High Lords against a primarch? I mean, historical mortal that is practically a minor god in his own right, against some dude on Terran that doesn't care about the average citizen.
How much do average citizens know about the heresy,'the Primarchs, horus, etc? I was under the impression that it's not really common knowledge.
They know as much as we know about God and the Devil.
It's a religious text to them. They know the story that was written down for them by heart and in it the Primarchs are the angelic sons of God who fended off his wayward, less capable, sons and banished them from the Imperium through divine might.
And I know how I'd react if someone appeared claiming to be an angel...
Yeah but the citizens of the imperium know of the primarchs existance. They know they were real. They honor the name of Sanguinius and go see the body of Roboute. In a world of 8 foot tall super humans and aliens, I might be more likely to believe it was a Primarch than if an angel showed up
Yeah it was a bad analogy, that's been pointed out.
2015/04/09 17:04:10
Subject: Which Loyalist Primarch's Return Would Destroy the Imperium?
Melissia wrote: None of them. Though some would create more chaos (little c, not big C Chaos) than others.
I dont know
i think girly man was a decent politician. i think if anyone he could smooosh his way with the HLoT and actually work with them rather than against them.
The rest i can easily see plenty of friction with the powers at be.
Oh, I coudl see tons of friction. But they wouldn't want to destroy the Imperium itself. Reform maybe, but not destroy. Some of them aren't competent enough to reform without harming the Imperium, but none of them would actually destroy it.
You're working under the impression that the loyalist who returns would intend to destroy the Imperium.
2015/04/09 18:02:19
Subject: Which Loyalist Primarch's Return Would Destroy the Imperium?
I would argue that both Russ and Guiliman would be equally disruptive. Russ for bellicose and belligerent reasons, and Guliman because of pride.
Russ would see the travesty that the imperium was in and either secede (best case scenario) or attempt to remove the HLOT and start a new Civil war (worse case scenario)
Guliman would be enraged at the state of the imperial government and would at best try to reorganize it by force of personality, and at worse by force of arms.
I base these speculations on the established fluff on russ' and Guiliman's personalities and the inherent pride arrogance and sense of entitlement that most (maybe excluding Corax or Vulkan) loyalist primarchs would have about the imperium and government in general (I'm going to catch a lot of hate for this comparison) similar to the way Viserys Targaryen views the Baratheons. Thile the HLOT are not usurpers, that have perverted guliman's setup and by extension the emperor's vision for his empire.
The Emperor Protects
Strike Force Voulge led by Lord Inquisitor Severus Vaul: 7000 points painted
2015/04/09 18:05:09
Subject: Which Loyalist Primarch's Return Would Destroy the Imperium?
He literally wouldn't take the helm of his own empire because he knew that he wouldn't be able to command his forces and be a figure head at the same time. he rather had lionel or sanguine do it.
Edit: He also didnt want to do it because he didnt want to come off as taking over and "creating a new empire" by taking up the mantle of emperor. i doubt he would do cause any sort of trouble
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/04/09 18:06:39
I have a sneaky feeling Guilliman woiuld head straight to Terra, sit down with High Lords, and say, 'Right. I don't like the look of the Imperium, and it's not what me daddy would have wanted. So let's work out where the whole thing is going from now on with a minimum of strife, mmkay?'
Guilliman could be a diplomat as well as a soldier. He'd probably change things for the better, but it would take years of careful diplomacy. He wouldn't risk open conflict unless absolutely necessary, because being a strategic genius, he would well be able to grasp the implications for humanity of another galaxy wide civil war at this stage (anyone hear the word 'extinction'?).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/09 19:21:34
2015/04/10 01:38:48
Subject: Which Loyalist Primarch's Return Would Destroy the Imperium?
Ketara wrote: He wouldn't risk open conflict unless absolutely necessary, because being a strategic genius, he would well be able to grasp the implications for humanity of another galaxy wide civil war at this stage (anyone hear the word 'extinction'?).
Except he almost did when Dorn refused to accept the Codex Astares and break up his legion. This was immediately following the Horus Heresy when the Imperium was arguably weaker than it is now. He was willing to use force to the point where another civil war looked inevitable, only stopping when Dorn backed down.
Roboute understands diplomacy, but he is still a man that lacks subtlety and patience. He would risk open conflict if he thought he could win.
Still waiting for Godot.
2015/04/10 03:28:00
Subject: Which Loyalist Primarch's Return Would Destroy the Imperium?
Ketara wrote: He wouldn't risk open conflict unless absolutely necessary, because being a strategic genius, he would well be able to grasp the implications for humanity of another galaxy wide civil war at this stage (anyone hear the word 'extinction'?).
Except he almost did when Dorn refused to accept the Codex Astares and break up his legion. This was immediately following the Horus Heresy when the Imperium was arguably weaker than it is now. He was willing to use force to the point where another civil war looked inevitable, only stopping when Dorn backed down.
Roboute understands diplomacy, but he is still a man that lacks subtlety and patience. He would risk open conflict if he thought he could win.
But that's the key here. Open conflict, or in this case, civil war, would have no winners. With the Hive Fleets chomping at the bit, the traitor legions always plotting something, and half a dozen other xenos wildcards, the Imperium is too fragile to withstand a civil war. The amounts of resources it would consume would leave the Imperium wide open to being absorbed by the Hive Fleet.
Guilliman wouldn't take the risk of open conflict unless he had absolutely no choice, e.g. the Inquisition moving directly to purge him and Ultramar. He'd look at the situation, realise how precarious the existence of mankind has come to be, and use diplomacy instead. Guilliman is not an idiot, he's a Primarch with an eidetic memory, and a genius for grand strategy. As you yourself have put it, he would only risk open conflict if he thought he could win, but with the additional caveat of, 'If he thought it was necessary'.
I doubt he would find it necessary enough to immediately launch precipitate actions that would risk the extinction of all humanity.
2015/04/10 06:12:35
Subject: Which Loyalist Primarch's Return Would Destroy the Imperium?
For me the most likely loyalist primarch to return would be the Lion. He's just asleep deep within the Rock, waiting to be woken up by the Watchers in the Dark.
Really not sure what his agenda would be aside from helping to stop Chaos at the 11th hour. Outside of stopping chaos, it could possibly damage the Imperium if he decides to bring all his successor chapters 'officially' back together under a single Legion banner - Dark Angels do this anyway, but he would unlikely keep it hidden. The Lords of Terra certainly won't like that one bit and could potentially cause a kind of civil war throughout the Imperium.
On the tabletop, the return of the Lion would finally give Dark Angel players something to be happy about as the return of their primarch would really boost them. "Nephilim what? Who gives a s**t, I've got the Lion!"
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/04/10 09:16:06
"For The Emperor and Sanguinius!"
My Armies:
Blood Angels, Ultramarines,
Astra Militarum,
Mechanicus
2015/04/10 09:23:00
Subject: Which Loyalist Primarch's Return Would Destroy the Imperium?
ImAGeek wrote: Is it not Luther that's actually asleep in the Rock? Is that not their big secret? Or have I got that the wrong way?
Nope, they have both asleep in the Rock, but Lion is in a super secret cranny somewhere by the Watchers in the Dark
Yep that's correct. Also, where Luther's existence is known by the Chapter Master, i.e. Azrael, nobody within the Dark Angels (besides the watchers in the dark), know about the Lion's existence within their huge floating fortress monastery.
"For The Emperor and Sanguinius!"
My Armies:
Blood Angels, Ultramarines,
Astra Militarum,
Mechanicus