Light infantry Codex for Imperial Guard

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**Sledgehammer**

So the game does not really allow me to play the Imperial guard the way I want to play it.

I have attempted to put together a codex that allows me to play the way I want to.

I have everything that I changed or added in red on a word document but I cannot upload it here.

Most infantry models have camo cloaks and carapace. Bs has been increased to 4 (infantry) and points costs have been increased. Heavy weapons squads may be taken outside of platoons.

I have also added 2 new units, hopefully they are balanced.

Spoiler:

**clamclaw**

Wait, so I'm confused. What exactly does this change from the standard AM codex? Could you give a brief summary, because from what I skimmed through a lot of it looks very similar.

Also, I'm not certain but you may want to check with the posting guidelines as the way you list wargear and point values. Having specific values and points might violate dakka site rules.

**Grimskul**

I have to agree with clamclaw. Next time just post the changes you would have made specifically as in either special rules or just telling us that guard infantry would have a 6+ save but gain stealth or Move Through Cover in return.

**Sledgehammer**

Edited to make changes more clear. Its not perfect, but it highlights some of the most drastic changes.

I didn't post all of the units I have in the codex, but they are where they should be in the normal AM codex.

**Whiskey144**

The only thing I can say is that Shredder Lasguns are a little too good for their cost and profile.

I'd recommend putting them at 18" Range; that could also make them more viable for gaining an additional shot as well.

**Jambles**

A little while back I was running a lil' campaign set in the equatorial jungles of Armageddon. I took some inspiration from the old Codex: Catachans to make an alternate army list for the Armageddon Ork Hunters, following the format of the Supplement codices (Farsight, Great Waaagh etc). The premise was similar to yours: light infantry guard, and I think it turned out pretty well, especially with the nice rules basis I had with Codex: Catachans.

I'd give that book a look-see, if you want some more ideas. I could also post my Catachan list, if you're interested.

**Sledgehammer**

^ Please do jambles.

Whiskey144 wrote:
The only thing I can say is that Shredder Lasguns are a little too good for their cost and profile.

I'd recommend putting them at 18" Range; that could also make them more viable for gaining an additional shot as well.

Only sergeants, characters, and the assault squad can take them.

Furthermore 30 shots with frfsrf the squad will only get 10 wounds on toughness 5, and will score 3.3333 kills against marines.

At 18 inches, I might as well give them hotshots.

At 120 points and the wyvern only costing 65, I fail to see the problem.

I have used the assault squad twice thus far and they have in total done 1 glance on a predator, and killed 2 bikers.

**clamclaw**

Sledgehammer wrote:
^ Please do jambles.

Whiskey144 wrote:
The only thing I can say is that Shredder Lasguns are a little too good for their cost and profile.

I'd recommend putting them at 18" Range; that could also make them more viable for gaining an additional shot as well.

Only sergeants, characters, and the assault squad can take them.

Furthermore 30 shots with frfsrf the squad will only get 10 wounds on toughness 5, and will score 3.3333 kills against marines.

At 18 inches, I might as well give them hotshots.

At 120 points and the wyvern only costing 65, I fail to see the problem.

I have used the assault squad twice thus far and they have in total done 1 glance on a predator, and killed 2 bikers.

I would echo the Shredder Lasgun critique, they seem slightly undercosted, even if they can't be easily spammed. 3 pts. for more shots and shred is pretty heafty over the standard lasgun.

Also, take into account how/who you would be playing with. Do you plan to run this codex with friends? Or with pickup games? I feel like in a close knit group you can get away with a fandex, but others might have trouble coming to terms with some of the balancing. (personally I would love to play against this custom codex, just for the variation).

**Sledgehammer**

clamclaw wrote:
Sledgehammer wrote:
^ Please do jambles.

Whiskey144 wrote:
The only thing I can say is that Shredder Lasguns are a little too good for their cost and profile.

I'd recommend putting them at 18" Range; that could also make them more viable for gaining an additional shot as well.

Only sergeants, characters, and the assault squad can take them.

Furthermore 30 shots with frfsrf the squad will only get 10 wounds on toughness 5, and will score 3.3333 kills against marines.

At 18 inches, I might as well give them hotshots.

At 120 points and the wyvern only costing 65, I fail to see the problem.

I have used the assault squad twice thus far and they have in total done 1 glance on a predator, and killed 2 bikers.

I would echo the Shredder Lasgun critique, they seem slightly undercosted, even if they can't be easily spammed. 3 pts. for more shots and shred is pretty heafty over the standard lasgun.

Also, take into account how/who you would be playing with. Do you plan to run this codex with friends? Or with pickup games? I feel like in a close knit group you can get away with a fandex, but others might have trouble coming to terms with some of the balancing. (personally I would love to play against this custom codex, just for the variation).

This is intended to be used purely with a smaller group of people, or a campaign setting.

The weapon cost itself, (3pts) is only calculated for upgrades, and not calculated if the unit already has the weapon. Only sergeants and company commanders can take this weapon as an upgrade. The 2 point differential between a bolter and a shredder are in my opinion satisfactory for that change in capabilities.

18 Inch range on the shredder will destroy the reason for the shredder and thus the assault squad in the first place. I wanted an elite unit that could infiltrate and actually do something rather than coming on and dieing just like every other guardsman. An 18 inch range severely limits the amount of total shooting they will get during the game, and hampers their survivability. To get all of the shots in with the unit, the front guardsman of the unit would have to be closer to the enemy than the rest of the models within that unit. This means that I essentially have 1 turn of shooting with the unit before they get charged. All of this is also assuming that they will survive shooting, as since they are guardsman, they have a higher tendency to drop anyway. The gun, and the unit, being so easy to kill, are thus priced like they are with that vulnerability in mind.

Now I will concede its use on anything other than assault squads if that is the problem.

**kingbobbito**

My biggest issues with it are largely fluffwise, as well as a bit of balance and pricing.

For starters, why exactly does a lasgun get shred? How is it getting extra shots without being more cumbersome, like the volleygun? If a bolter shell doesn't have shred, why should a tiny little laser get it? The shred rule is given to things that are dealing multiple hits per actual hit.... compare lightning claws with a sword, the sword makes one slice, claws make 4. Hence, shred. As for two extra shots at the exact same range.... is it double barreled like a storm bolter?

Next, special ammunitions... why are we issuing specialty ammunition to something as lowly as guardsmen, when only the most elite of elite marines are given unique ammunition? Also, when would heavy ammo be worth it? You go from 3+ to hit anything and 4+ to wound, to 4+ to hit anything and 3+ to wound.

Next, what troops choices are you going to have? You mentioned bumping up BS of models to 4, would this include generic guard? Considering that vets are BS 4, which matches superhuman accuracy of marines somehow, why would generic fresh meat guardsmen be that good too?

Finally, why do rough riders get the addition of +2 initiative and strength the turn they charge in addition to the benefits of hunting lances? Do any other fast units get this? They deserve HoW, not something that makes them hit the same time eldar do when no one on a bike gets this benefit. Even grey knights had their bonus to initiative for halberds taken away. Throw in that somehow this unit charges the turn they arrive, even though nothing else in the game can do this. Why can humans do what marines, eldar, or daemons can't do?

**Desubot**

So you want Veteran Platoon squads/elysian drop troops basically?

why not just run elysian drop troops?

Otherwise i kinda like the idea of Veteran Platoon squads.

Just make it so the compulsory 2 infantry squads is instead vet squads.
Bump up BS and WS stats for Vets at a cost per model

And the shredder just needs to be the good old hotshot. edit or volleyball

I like the idea of a HEAVY sniper rifle. i feel it would be simple to just use the new ADmech one where it simply has armor bane.

**Whiskey144**

Sledgehammer wrote:
Only sergeants, characters, and the assault squad can take them.

Furthermore 30 shots with frfsrf the squad will only get 10 wounds on toughness 5, and will score 3.3333 kills against marines.

At 18 inches, I might as well give them hotshots.

At 120 points and the wyvern only costing 65, I fail to see the problem.

I have used the assault squad twice thus far and they have in total done 1 glance on a predator, and killed 2 bikers.

It's the fact that you're getting more shots at a distance and Shred. Pick one or the other, not both.

Also, Assault 2 S3/Shred @ 18" isn't nearly the same as Hotshots; Hotshots are Rapid Fire 18"; keep in mind that I wasn't saying "oh, Lasguns with Shred; better make 'em 18" Rapid Fire". I was saying that you should either have:

24" Rapid Fire S3 AP- Shred
OR
18" Assault 2 S3 AP- Shred

I also commented that at 18" you might even be able to get away with Assault 3. As an example, the Skitarii Vanguard are armed with Radium Carbines, which are 18" Assault 3 S3 AP5 Rad-Poisoning. The trait allows the Radium Carbine to inflict 2 automatic wounds on a To-Wound roll of "6".

18" Assault 3 S3 AP- Shred would more reliably wound certain targets, but not scale quite as nicely. You could probably get away with making that a 1 or 2 point upgrade, rather than 3 pts.

Also... how the hell are you glancing any kind of AV to death with these "Shredder Lasguns"? You do know that S3 can't touch AV10 at all, right?

Sledgehammer wrote:
This is intended to be used purely with a smaller group of people, or a campaign setting.

The weapon cost itself, (3pts) is only calculated for upgrades, and not calculated if the unit already has the weapon. Only sergeants and company commanders can take this weapon as an upgrade. The 2 point differential between a bolter and a shredder are in my opinion satisfactory for that change in capabilities.

18 Inch range on the shredder will destroy the reason for the shredder and thus the assault squad in the first place. I wanted an elite unit that could infiltrate and actually do something rather than coming on and dieing just like every other guardsman. An 18 inch range severely limits the amount of total shooting they will get during the game, and hampers their survivability. To get all of the shots in with the unit, the front guardsman of the unit would have to be closer to the enemy than the rest of the models within that unit. This means that I essentially have 1 turn of shooting with the unit before they get charged. All of this is also assuming that they will survive shooting, as since they are guardsman, they have a higher tendency to drop anyway. The gun, and the unit, being so easy to kill, are thus priced like they are with that vulnerability in mind.

Now I will concede its use on anything other than assault squads if that is the problem.

Skitarii Vanguard have a comparable firearm- especially in terms of range- and are generally considered to be fething amazing. Vanguard are T3/4+/6+ FNP, but that's really only slightly more durable than T3/4+.

Also, if you want Guardsmen that don't die... I don't really know what to tell you. IG is kind of built around the idea that "oh, you killed my infantry squad? I have seven more just like it!" It doesn't matter if you lose one squad, if you've got a buttload more just like it that are right behind the now-dead squad.

Again, my recommendation for 18" range was contingent on retaining Assault 2.

**Sledgehammer**

Shredder lasguns are modified and specially purposed lasguns intended to drastically. increase their rate of fire. The effect that shredder lasguns have on their victims is that the rate of fire being much greater than a typical lasgun, literally shreds and cuts them apart. Obviously the increase in the rate of fire poses problems in the well being of the gun. The lasgun itself does not require a backpack for additional fuel cells or heat dispersal. A hotshot lasgun needs the extra fuel cells to power each of its individual shots, which would otherwise be impossible for a normal lasgun. A hotshot also needs the extra heat sinks because each shot is much hotter than each shredder lasgun shot. The shredder lasgun shoots exactly the same as a normal lasgun, it just shoots more of those shots in a shorter time period. The shredder lasgun can then use the same lasgun ammo cells that normal lasguns use, but runs out of ammunition at a much quicker rate. Ulike the normal lasgun, once a cell has been depleted of energy it cannot be recharged as the shredder completely drains the cell of all energy. The heat dispersion system undergoing stress at a much higher rate requires more maintenance than a normal lasgun. The lasgun itself is powerful, but costly to utilize.

Due to it being a normal lasgun, it should have the same range. Due to its insane rate of fire it should have assault 2 and shred

I'm going to limit it to only the assault squad and increase the squads base value to 150 pts

As for the ammunition, that is for the veteran sniper squad which is comprised of a total of 5 snipers.

As for the death of a guardsman, i fully expect them to die every game, its just I expect them to at least get 2 rounds of shooting in against an infantry unit before being charged.

I run a volunteer veteran group, so everyone is a veteran.

There are no platoons in the entire codex except for the copy paste militarum tempestus.

I don't like the elysians because they lack camo cloaks and heavy sentinels all of which i have or are modeled on all of my guys. Also because all of my guys are supposed to be veterans.

**Desubot**

You know most "insane rate of fire" weapons are heavy right? edit or twinlinked.

**Sledgehammer**

Desubot wrote:
You know most "insane rate of fire" weapons are heavy right? edit or twinlinked.

A heavy weapon is heavy, this is a lasgun.

Twin-Linked is done on dual mounted weapons or multiple weapons of the same type firing from the same model.

Guardsman don't really even matter or do anything unless they are lugging some ugly big thing around. To an extent this is also a reaction to the mindset of guardsman being useless unless they have a special or heavy weapon. The assault squad is meant to flank up on an enemy and assault them at close range with their rifles and do some damage against other infantry. Giving them heavy would prevent them from assaulting, and twin linked is absolutely useless.

**Desubot**

Sledgehammer wrote:
Desubot wrote:
You know most "insane rate of fire" weapons are heavy right? edit or twinlinked.

A heavy weapon is heavy, this is a lasgun.

Twin-Linked is done on dual mounted weapons or multiple weapons of the same type firing from the same model.

Guardsman don't really even matter or do anything unless they are lugging some ugly big thing around. To an extent this is also a reaction to the mindset of guardsman being useless unless they have a special or heavy weapon. The assault squad is meant to flank up on an enemy and assault them at close range with their rifles and do some damage against other infantry. Giving them heavy would prevent them from assaulting, and twin linked is absolutely useless.

Well the only other thing that i can think of as a highly rapid fire weapon on a standard frame would be the pulse carbine off tau

And its 18" assault 2 with pinning instead of shred. and essentially does the same thing.

**Sledgehammer**

Desubot wrote:
Sledgehammer wrote:
Desubot wrote:
You know most "insane rate of fire" weapons are heavy right? edit or twinlinked.

A heavy weapon is heavy, this is a lasgun.

Twin-Linked is done on dual mounted weapons or multiple weapons of the same type firing from the same model.

Guardsman don't really even matter or do anything unless they are lugging some ugly big thing around. To an extent this is also a reaction to the mindset of guardsman being useless unless they have a special or heavy weapon. The assault squad is meant to flank up on an enemy and assault them at close range with their rifles and do some damage against other infantry. Giving them heavy would prevent them from assaulting, and twin linked is absolutely useless.

Well the only other thing that i can think of as a highly rapid fire weapon on a standard frame would be the pulse carbine off tau

And its 18" assault 2 with pinning instead of shred. and essentially does the same thing.

Its meant to be special and give the dex some flair.

I am disallowed from taking any transports other than Valkyries, so chances are tau, flamer or any other ignores cover weapon will make it impossible for the unit to survive. I'm fielding a 150 point guard squad, in one turn of shooting chances are they will end up being combat ineffective. Increasing the points over 150 will make them too costly.

**Ghazkuul**

I like the idea of a Light Infantry guard army.

**kingbobbito**

Sledgehammer wrote:
Desubot wrote:
You know most "insane rate of fire" weapons are heavy right? edit or twinlinked.

A heavy weapon is heavy, this is a lasgun.

Twin-Linked is done on dual mounted weapons or multiple weapons of the same type firing from the same model.

Guardsman don't really even matter or do anything unless they are lugging some ugly big thing around. To an extent this is also a reaction to the mindset of guardsman being useless unless they have a special or heavy weapon. The assault squad is meant to flank up on an enemy and assault them at close range with their rifles and do some damage against other infantry. Giving them heavy would prevent them from assaulting, and twin linked is absolutely useless.

A gun that fires a massive amount of shots isn't represented by assault and shred, it's represented by salvo. This can be seen in the volleygun, which is literally just a lasgun that fires a ton of shots, or in things like the DA dakka banner.

Weapons that are given assault are storm bolters for being double barreled, tau carbines because the weapon is small and their tech is well beyond that of imperium weapons (and they get pinning due to underslung grenade launchers that fire something similar to a flashbang). Tau don't get any special rule based on the fact that the gun fires a ton of shots, and I can guarantee you that nothing matches tau tech. Orks are short range, and only get assault because they don't actually bother aiming their guns, they just dakka wildly while charging. Eldar guns are small and short range, and they're well beyond the physical capabilities that a human can perform.

If you want this gun to fit the rules of the game, and to be an extremely high rate of fire and still look like a normalish lasgun, and somehow not require any sort of ammo pack or heat sink, it should be slavo 2/3, possibly salvo 2/4, and not have shred. You can't run around while accurately firing that many shots on a decently sized weapon, especially considering you don't have anything to stabilize your shooting.

EDIT: and considering how powerful those would be, I'd say only 4-5 of a 10 man squad should carry them. No sensible commander would give an entire squad such a valuable weapon, as they know full well how quickly guardsmen die. It'd be like giving one of my DA vet squads 10 plasma guns. Plus, they'd want some of your squad to be able to shoot if you have to move.

**Sledgehammer**

pg 41 assault weapons brb 7th edition
"Assault weapons are fired by warriors as they move forwards into combat. They either fire so rapidly or idiscriminitly that they don't have to do much more than point and shoot"

pg41 brb 7th edition heavy weapons

"These are heavy an portible weapons such as missile launchers or lighter weapons that require reloading between each shot, careful setup or bracing to counter recoil"

Pg 42 rapid fire weapons brb 7th edition
"Rapid fire weapons are very common and usually come in the form of semi automatic rifles"

Pg 42 salvo weapons brb 7th edition
"Salvo weapons are essentially more destructive rapid fire weapons"

pg 170 shred brb 7th editiion
"some weapons and warriors strike in a flurry of blows, tearing flesh asunder in a series of brutal strikes"

Salvo weapons are more powerful rapid fire weapons, which means that it is an amped up semi auto or burst fire weapon. So they either shoot more powerful shots, or are changed from semi auto to burst. In the case of the hotshot volley it is both as the strength is increased, and the rate of fire is increased on the weapon profile. The rate of fire of the shredder lasgun is greater than a hot shot volley or normal lasgun in that it is fully auto rather than semi auto or burst fire. The power output per shot is still the same, but the rate at which the shots are put out makes the weapon more likely to damage due to the sheer amount of shots. This is represented in the shred rule, which as I quoted above is given to weapons that deliver a FLURRY of blows.

Bolters do not have an insane rate of fire as the rate of fire is hampered due to the propulsion system. Bolts must clear the chamber before another shot is fired, yet since bolts are literally rockets they take time to build up the momentum to clear the barrel. This is why bolters have a slowish rate of fire as the weapon system needs to wait until the round clears the chamber. A shredder lasgun does not shoot anything other than a concentrated burst of energy, thus they don't have to wait for anything to clear a chamber.

Ork weapons are assault weapons because they love dakka and the faster the rate of fire, the more dakka. The short range is more due to the shoddy craftsmanship rather than anything else.

Tau pulse carbines are much smaller than pulse rifles, so the energy output is less per shot, but the increased rate of fire offsets any damage reduction that would otherwise be present. The increased rate of fire, while offsetting the lower power per shot also has the added benefit of suppressing the enemy.

Shurikan weapons copy and pasted from Lexicanum
"All shuriken weapons are built around a gravitic accelerator, similar to the motors which propel Imperial Land Speeders, and a solid core of ammunition composed of a plasti-crystal material, stored in the weapon's magazine. High-energy impulses originating from the rear of the weapon detach a monomolecular-thin slice of the core and hurls this slice out the barrel of the weapon at tremendous velocities due to a peristaltic shift. A magnetic repulsor forces the ammunition core out of the magazine and keeps it in line with the firing impulse. Using this method a burst of a hundred rounds can be fired in one or two seconds, and each core is good for ten or more of these bursts before requiring replacement.[1b][2][3a] The downside to this method of operation is that shuriken weapons lack rifling in the barrel; this not only reduces accuracy but also the range of these weapons in comparison to normal projectile weapons of similar size"

So yes, eldar weapons have shred because of their rate of fire and becuase they shoot tiny saws.

**kingbobbito**

Sledgehammer wrote:

The rate of fire of the shredder lasgun is greater than a hot shot volley or normal lasgun in that it is fully auto rather than semi auto or burst fire.

The hot shot volley gun isn't burst fire though.... it fires at a "punishing rate of fire" according to the codex, and has heat sinks allowing this. Doesn't sound semi auto to me....

A shredder lasgun does not shoot anything other than a concentrated burst of energy, thus they don't have to wait for anything to clear a chamber.

Since lasguns, period, don't have to wait for a shot to exit the chamber, why are they rapid fire? Why doesn't plasma or pulse fire as fast as it wants? The volley gun has extra heat dispersal and a huge charge pack, and isn't it modeled to have two barrels, one under the other?

Tau pulse carbines are much smaller than pulse rifles, so the energy output is less per shot, but the increased rate of fire offsets any damage reduction that would otherwise be present. The increased rate of fire, while offsetting the lower power per shot also has the added benefit of suppressing the enemy.

Tau pulse carbines are firing a plasma shot just like a carbine, just at a higher rate of fire. Again though, being able to move and fire rapidly is offset by being less accurate. And, as I said, pinning has nothing to do with the rate of fire of the gun. It has an underslung photon grenade launcher. If high rate of fire alone causes pinning, an assault cannon should getting pinning too.

So yes, eldar weapons have shred because of their rate of fire and becuase they shoot tiny saws.

Since when do Eldar weapons get shred? And this proves my point, that a massive rate of fire of "a hundred rounds in a second" does not equate to shred. Since eldar don't get shred, why should your lasguns? Eldar weapons get pseudo-rending, which a lasgun should under no circumstances get anyways. Shrapnel from an exploding bolter shell going off inside your chest is more likely to have shred or rend than fast lasgun shots.

Even then, another comparable example of compact gun with massive rate of fire, look at a psycannon. Small, man portable weapon not much bigger than a bolter or similar weapon, but the RoF is too much to be able to move while firing accurately. If you want a devastating rate of fire, it won't be represented by adding shred, it's shown by salvo. The fact that a salvo weapon fires 4 shots to an assault weapon's 2 implies a massive rate of fire. So you can either get assault 2 without shred, or go salvo, because high rate of fire never equals shred in this game, it equals salvo.

EDIT: further, the reason that the eldar weapons are assault instead of salvo is that they don't have to fire constantly. They fire a burst in a second, then keep running. For a normal gun to match that hundred rounds fired by eldar, you need to stop and fire for at least a few seconds, meaning not assault anymore. And honestly, the only reason a storm bolter is assault is because they don't have a rule called "rapid fire x2". A storm bolter is identical to a standard bolter except for being double barreled, so to keep from being too powerful they just made it assault when it should deal twice as many wounds as a bolter, especially on something as steady as a dreadnought or terminator. They only did it that way to nerf it. Honestly, I'd be fine with storm bolters being salvo 2/3 or 2/4.

**Sledgehammer**

kingbobbito wrote:
Sledgehammer wrote:

The rate of fire of the shredder lasgun is greater than a hot shot volley or normal lasgun in that it is fully auto rather than semi auto or burst fire.
The hot shot volley gun isn't burst fire though.... it fires at a "punishing rate of fire" according to the codex, and has heat sinks allowing this. Doesn't sound semi auto to me....

A shredder lasgun does not shoot anything other than a concentrated burst of energy, thus they don't have to wait for anything to clear a chamber.
Since lasguns, period, don't have to wait for a shot to exit the chamber, why are they rapid fire? Why doesn't plasma or pulse fire as fast as it wants? The volley gun has extra heat dispersal and a huge charge pack, and isn't it modeled to have two barrels, one under the other?

Tau pulse carbines are much smaller than pulse rifles, so the energy output is less per shot, but the increased rate of fire offsets any damage reduction that would otherwise be present. The increased rate of fire, while offsetting the lower power per shot also has the added benefit of suppressing the enemy.
Tau pulse carbines are firing a plasma shot just like a carbine, just at a higher rate of fire. Again though, being able to move and fire rapidly is offset by being less accurate. And, as I said, pinning has nothing to do with the rate of fire of the gun. It has an underslung photon grenade launcher. If high rate of fire alone causes pinning, an assault cannon should getting pinning too.

So yes, eldar weapons have shred because of their rate of fire and becuase they shoot tiny saws.
Since when do Eldar weapons get shred? And this proves my point, that a massive rate of fire of "a hundred rounds in a second" does not equate to shred. Since eldar don't get shred, why should your lasguns? Eldar weapons get pseudo-rending, which a lasgun should under no circumstances get anyways. Shrapnel from an exploding bolter shell going off inside your chest is more likely to have shred or rend than fast lasgun shots.

Even then, another comparable example of compact gun with massive rate of fire, look at a psycannon. Small, man portable weapon not much bigger than a bolter or similar weapon, but the RoF is too much to be able to move while firing accurately. If you want a devastating rate of fire, it won't be represented by adding shred, it's shown by salvo. The fact that a salvo weapon fires 4 shots to an assault weapon's 2 implies a massive rate of fire. So you can either get assault 2 without shred, or go salvo, because high rate of fire never equals shred in this game, it equals salvo.

EDIT: further, the reason that the eldar weapons are assault instead of salvo is that they don't have to fire constantly. They fire a burst in a second, then keep running. For a normal gun to match that hundred rounds fired by eldar, you need to stop and fire for at least a few seconds, meaning not assault anymore. And honestly, the only reason a storm bolter is assault is because they don't have a rule called "rapid fire x2". A storm bolter is identical to a standard bolter except for being double barreled, so to keep from being too powerful they just made it assault when it should deal twice as many wounds as a bolter, especially on something as steady as a dreadnought or terminator. They only did it that way to nerf it. Honestly, I'd be fine with storm bolters being salvo 2/3 or 2/4.

Hot shot volley gun in the AM codex "These weapons are born into battle by tempestus scions to deal with armored enemy infantry. Perfect for bringing down traitor space marines or xenos warriors, hotshot volley guns fire with a distinctive splitting hand."

Hot shot lasgun in the brb "Las weapons fire packets of explosive laser energy - the larger the gun, the more powerful the shot. Regardless of size, las weapons are increadibly reliable making them favired tools throughout the imperium.'

Neither account says anything about a fast rate of fire. Since salvo weapons are upgraded rapid fire weapons in either the burst capacity, or damage compartment we can determine that salvo weapons do not in fact shoot more shots as compared to a fully automatic assault weapon.

The number of shots indicated in a weapon profile is not indicative of how many rounds are shot, only how many times the weapon has a chance at hitting and wounding a target during a set time period. This is displayed in the eldar quote above concerning shuriken weapons. If the amount of shots displayed on the weapon profile is representative of each projectile shot, then eldar would have hundreds of shots per gun.

Similarly plasma weapons, and other energy based weapons lower their rate of fire due to the build up of heat. The shredder lasgun is designed with a different heat dispersion system and is also modified to increase the rate of fire. The guns themselves are rare and expensive because even with the modified heat dispersal system, they will eventually need to be repaired.

The shredder lasgun, being less powerful, does not get the same amount of shots as say a psycannon because while the gun itself may shoot more projectiles, it has a lower chance to hit and kill its opponent during the same time period. The probability that a shredder lasgun has of wounding something each hit is less than a psycannon, but the amount of shots being poured into the unit increases the probability of each probability to wound. Instead of rend I could give them 3 shots, but the effect is mathematically the same against toughness 4 units

Storm bolters for grey knights are modeled on their hands and coupled with the higher rate of fire are assault. They don't need to stop and fire because the weapons they have are designed to be fired on the move. The shredder lasgun is designed to be fired on the move, and coupled with its high rate of fire gives it assault just like the storm bolter.

I would be fine with rending on bolters as overall infantry weapons are useless in 40k.

**Whiskey144**

You realize that you're being inconsistent, right? First you say that the RoF on a weapon's profile isn't indicative of the amount of shots it's actually firing, and then you say that plasma weapons have a lower RoF due to heat build up, tacitly indicating that profile RoF=real RoF.

So which is it?

Also, what's with your blazing hatred of keeping Assault but losing 6" of range down to 18". It's not like 18" Assault 2 is anywhere near as bad as 18" Rapid Fire- you're still getting full RoF from 0-18". I even said that I could actually see these "Shredder Lasguns" (which is a very unimaginative name, BTW) getting Assault 3 at 18", instead of 2 at 24".

I'd also like to point out that Bolter shells are invariably depicted as having a small, conventional "booster" charge that propels the munition out of the barrel at a high velocity, which also removes the traditional weakness of Gyrojet-type weapons (IE, ineffectiveness at point-blank range).

It also means that there is no "low RoF so that bolts can clear the barrel". A bolter shell will leave the barrel at a speed comparable to a traditional chemical-propellant firearm.

**kingbobbito**

Sledgehammer wrote:
Hot shot volley gun in the AM codex "These weapons are born into battle by tempestus scions to deal with armored enemy infantry. Perfect for bringing down traitor space marines or xenos warriors, hotshot volley guns fire with a distinctive splitting hand."

Was going off of the description in the MT book, since it has better descriptions of scions in it. And scions are described as having a weapon that fires well at an extreme rate of fire.

Similarly plasma weapons, and other energy based weapons lower their rate of fire due to the build up of heat. The shredder lasgun is designed with a different heat dispersion system and is also modified to increase the rate of fire. The guns themselves are rare and expensive because even with the modified heat dispersal system, they will eventually need to be repaired.

If it is as you say, the same size as a standard lasgun, where are you going to fit all this extra stuff to make it better? You need it larger or with more barrels, like a volleygun. Better guns means bigger guns, unless we're talking about ancient relics that a guardsman would be executed for even touching. The way you make this gun sound so incredibly rare and difficult to manufacture and maintain makes me think it's something that the mechanicum wouldn't even bother making for guardsman, as they'd be better off producing 50 lasguns for a group of conscripts, lasguns that hardly need any maintenance and perform almost as well. The mechanicum save the good toys for themselves or the marines.

The shredder lasgun, being less powerful, does not get the same amount of shots as say a psycannon because while the gun itself may shoot more projectiles, it has a lower chance to hit and kill its opponent during the same time period. The probability that a shredder lasgun has of wounding something each hit is less than a psycannon, but the amount of shots being poured into the unit increases the probability of each probability to wound. Instead of rend I could give them 3 shots, but the effect is mathematically the same against toughness 4 units

A lasgun being less powerful than a psycannon doesn't have anything to do with the number of shots. The power difference is represented by the huge difference in strength. Unless your gun is that horribly inaccurate it'd match a psycannons profile better than a storm bolter's profile, as even you said a storm bolter fires slowly.

Also, you keep confusing rend and shred. Rend ignores armor and is massively better against armored units. And lasguns either get AP3 like hotshot or don't get anything.

I know you want your units to be unique and all, but no guns get shred AFAIK, and there are at least 3 or 4 weapons that would deserve to get it before your gun. Bolters (explode), shuriken catapults (more shots than any other gun).... heck, if we just base it off of what hits you the most a flamer should have shred because you don't just get hit once by it, it keeps hitting you and you're covered in flames for awhile. Shred just isn't a rule that guns deserve. Increased rate of fire means more shots, shred means a higher chance to cause a wound. Note that they are separate things entirely. A lightning claw doesn't have shred because it gets more attacks, it gets it because each individual attack deals more damage. So increased rate of fire doesn't mean your lasers shred the target, they either mean assault or salvo. Not assault with shred, not assault with rend. And genuinely, if this unit infiltrates, why would you want them to get 2 assault shots instead of 3-4 salvo shots?

Storm bolters for grey knights are modeled on their hands and coupled with the higher rate of fire are assault. They don't need to stop and fire because the weapons they have are designed to be fired on the move. The shredder lasgun is designed to be fired on the move, and coupled with its high rate of fire gives it assault just like the storm bolter.

Is the shredder lasgun modeled onto one arm, meaning you don't need to stop and use both hands to fire it? You can't run and use a large weapon, and your gun will undeniably be bigger than a lasgun if it's better in every way possible.

As much as I like the idea of elite guardsmen, I can't agree with the idea of guardsmen having more firepower than most other troops. Even if you make them a lot of points to run, the whole idea that they're more expensive than any other base unit doesn't work. Make them 100-130 points and salvo 2/3 24" or assault 2-3 at 18". Otherwise your unit that's supposed to be a gunline is more powerful and maneuverable than just about any other unit, and any close range/melee unit is screwed. They beat eldar, orks, daemons.... and if they're in cover, they outperform equal points worth of tau easily. At 108 points I have 12 fire warriors. Your 110 squad gets 20 shots on me, I get 24. You have 3+ because you can infiltrate into any cover you want, I deal 3 unsaved wound, you get 5. That's assuming the fire warriors can get their entire squad within rapid, you'll probably get 2 or 3 turns before they can even rapid fire because you can backpedal, which means they're dealing 1.5 wounds a turn. Even in the open you'll most likely give them carapace armor. No single unit should so easily outperform other similarly themed units. Your infiltrating, move through cover unit will wipe most other units in the game within 2 turns, long before assaults happen.

**Sledgehammer**

certain things can be smaller and more effective than larger versions. For instance gold plated connectors are better than copper plated connectors, the problem is that they are rarer and more expensive. The parts used in the shredder are similar in this regard. The heat dispersion uses rarer resources that are more effective, so the size is not bigger, but the efficiency is increased. The shredder lasgun is only better in its heat dispersion system, which prevents it from being a hotshot, but allows it to shoot the weapon at a higher frequency.

As for other infantry weapons getting shred, I would be all for that as again infantry are useless in this game unless equipped with non standard weapons. This codex is meant to be played in a lax narrative environment, where the rule of cool trumps all. Guardsman that don't do anything aren't cool. The entire codex is for my volunteer veteran group. They are meant to be elite, as all of them are veterans.

The unit is an assault squad, while salvo does not limit their ability to move, it increases the cost of moving. I don't want an assault squad that benefits more from staying still rather than moving, and I also want them to successfully assault things. The unit is supposed to operate similarly to how the squad operates here

Have you fired a rifle, paintball gun, airsoft gun etc while running? You can be surprisingly accurate with it if you know how to move and on what intervals during your steps to press the trigger at.

I play guard according to how its fits my fluff, and these guys are always, no matter what going to be pushing forward, so their weapons should also reflect that.

**Desubot**

Im surprised the Mechanicam haven blown a gasket over all that rampant alternation of their precious equipment.

**Sledgehammer**

Desubot wrote:
Im surprised the Mechanicam haven blown a gasket over all that rampant alternation of their precious equipment.

The fluff for my guys has this in there, they don't like each other. They have inquisitorial support, so that is how they have the amount of resources that they do.

**kingbobbito**

Sledgehammer wrote:
Desubot wrote:
Im surprised the Mechanicam haven blown a gasket over all that rampant alternation of their precious equipment.
The fluff for my guys has this in there, they don't like each other. They have inquisitorial support, so that is how they have the amount of resources that they do.

Wait.... why would the inquisition be employing a guard army? They have storm troopers all their own, they don't need an elite guard regiment when they have their own storm trooper regiments. And even the Inquisition doesn't do anything that would go directly against the mechanicum, as the mechanicum is still in charge of providing them with weaponry. Heck, the inquisition would probably declare them heretics for such changes of technology!

Also, I did watch that video you mentioned, and all I saw was guys running 20 feet, stopping and aiming, then shooting. And you don't see people with tommy guns sprinting up to a guy, shooting the entire time, until he punches the other guy in the face. No sensible person fires a gun from their hip and expects to hit things. Yes, I use firearms on a regular basis, and there is no such thing as accuracy if you don't have the gun raised to your shoulder. And while you can move at a decent pace with a gun raised, you're still nowhere near running with the weapon lowered. And the entire concept of a weapon being assault is that not only can you fire it while moving, you can fire it easily enough that you don't have to stop at any point until you get close enough to punch them. The only things that can even remotely do this are submachine guns, which have gak for range. Also, it makes sense that the barrel on your special gun would be shortened, as a shorter barrel has less area for the heat to contact.

Also, you say these infantry are supposed to be the elite and such? All of them are veterans? Can you explain to me why exactly a squad of human veterans will stastically beat a squad of astartes veterans if you give them carapace armor or stick them in ruins? Marine fluff is that they're always pushing forward too, why doesn't the fluff reflect that?

You can never use the "this is our special fluff" argument, as it often means you're ignoring the fluff of every other army. Marines should get relentless, FNP, shred, fearless, fear, HoW, 2 wounds, WS and BS 5, power armor should be 2+ 4++.... the list goes on of what marine fluff should look like compared to guardsman fluff. Are you suggesting that any infantry unit that plays against your army should get buffs because "infantry are useless". Haha, I'd like to see you say infantry are useless to a green tide

**Furyou Miko**

If they're Light Infantry, I can grok camo cloaks.

I cannot condone Carapace Armour. Carapace Armour makes them Heavy Infantry.

Really, to convert Guard to Light Infantry (and because you want them, include your heavy sentinels), all you have to do is say;

Any PCS, SWS or HWS may take Camo Cloaks for +5 points.

Any Infantry squad may take Camo Cloaks for +10 points.

Any model may take an Auxiliary Grenade Launcher (Rng 18" S6 AP4 Assault 1 One Use Only) for +3 points.

The Army may include Drop Sentinel squadrons as an Elites choice.

No infantry squad may take the following Heavy Weapons: Lascannon, Autocannon.

No vehicle with an AV of Front + 1 Side + Rear of greater than 33 may be included in the army.

**koooaei**

BTW, is there any reasonable justification for a DA dakka banner making marines shoot fasta?..