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 koooaei wrote:
BTW, is there any reasonable justification for a DA dakka banner making marines shoot fasta?..

Because they're so inspired by this sweet looking banner, they get magical powers of the Emprah empowering them and their guns to fire faster. Kind of like PotMS.

Ha, who am I kidding? There's no sensible reason whatsoever other than saying DA need something to make their infantry decent since stubborn isn't very impressive.

 kingbobbito wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
BTW, is there any reasonable justification for a DA dakka banner making marines shoot fasta?..

Because they're so inspired by this sweet looking banner, they get magical powers of the Emprah empowering them and their guns to fire faster. Kind of like PotMS.

Ha, who am I kidding? There's no sensible reason whatsoever other than saying DA need something to make their infantry decent since stubborn isn't very impressive.

.........So why can't I use that justification for my guys? Guardsmen suck unless they are utilized in massive amounts of numbers, and I don't want to use them in massive amounts of numbers.

Shred on the lasguns is not going to drastically increase the killing power against 3+ saves on t4 models. 30 x .6666666 = 20 hits. 20 hits x . 33333 for 5s to wound = 6 wounds. 6 wounds x .333333 kills = 2 kills against space marines. With shred it increases the wounds to 10 instead of 6, but the amount of kills after the armor save only increase by 1. Laguns are not meant to kill marines, they are meant to kill things like tau, orks, gretchen, and gaunts. Shred on this weapon is only going to be effective against low toughness or low save models. This is all reflected in the mathematics of the weapons performance.

This dex is used in narrative style games, not pickup games, or competitive ones. My opponents are free to make their own modifications if they wish.

 Sledgehammer wrote:
.........So why can't I use that justification for my guys? Guardsmen suck unless they are utilized in massive amounts of numbers, and I don't want to use them in massive amounts of numbers.

Shred on the lasguns is not going to drastically increase the killing power against 3+ saves on t4 models. 30 x .6666666 = 20 hits. 20 hits x . 33333 for 5s to wound = 6 wounds. 6 wounds x .333333 kills = 2 kills against space marines. With shred it increases the wounds to 10 instead of 6, but the amount of kills after the armor save only increase by 1. Laguns are not meant to kill marines, they are meant to kill things like tau, orks, gretchen, and gaunts. Shred on this weapon is only going to be effective against low toughness or low save models. This is all reflected in the mathematics of the weapons performance.

This dex is used in narrative style games, not pickup games, or competitive ones. My opponents are free to make their own modifications if they wish.

Wait, so I can make any modifications that I think fit my fluff? Alright, terminators are now completely immune to anything that isn't AP2, which they have a 3++ against. Lasguns are no more effective than flashlights against a terminator. If you give me that rule I'll play against "your guys".

We can't just play the "cause I want it game", or we'd just keep adding more and more rules to beat our opponent. And what you failed to mention is that these marines wouldn't get even close to as many kills back against that unit, which if we want infantry to matter one squad shouldn't thoroughly trump every other squad. You should need some form of AP to be effective against marines, not have 10 lasguns and kill 10 marines, only losing less than half of your squad. Equally however, your squad can also outgun 12 fire warriors (which should have the best shooting since that's tau's whole thing), when they're actually only getting 1.5 kills to your 5 kills per turn at 24". And since you're assault, you easily backpedal to avoid their rapid fire.

If your squad is designed to be a unit that charges in and gets in assault, it shouldn't get 24" as well, as no other assault themed unit gets that shooting... most are pistols, or at best 18" assault.

And the idea of guardsmen is that they suck in small numbers. They shouldn't outclass everything else. Even looking at a comparable unit, space marine scouts, with bolters they'll lose. And if they want assault weapons, it's either a pistol and sword, or a shotgun with assault 12". Why doesn't a shotgun have shred? 00 buckshot, a common combat shell, does a spray of pellets. Since marine shotguns are probably 8 gauge or bigger, that's a lot of shot. Again.... shred makes no sense on a lasgun while nothing else gets it.

At the absolute best, if you want to be like dark angels, buy a banner that costs 65 points, the same as they pay, and consider theirs is only in a 5 man squad. As long as the banner is in play, you get better shooting. If you lost the banner, they're just normal lasguns. That'd be fair, wouldn't it? If you want to be balanced with DA, a pretty bad army.

 Sledgehammer wrote:
.........So why can't I use that justification for my guys? Guardsmen suck unless they are utilized in massive amounts of numbers, and I don't want to use them in massive amounts of numbers.

Because realistically, you're basically picked the wrong army for what you want. IG infantry aren't that great- they're flimsy and they are very susceptible to Morale, along with having poor firepower per man.

But IG Infantry are cheap. You can get a lot of bodies on the table if you want to, and that makes a Guardsman a very capable model- given that he's got 50 buddies backing him up. So the real issue is that you don't like the way that the army plays, and you're trying to change a fundamental aspect of it.

Maybe play the Scion "book"? IIRC FW actually gave a semi-official answer that the Militarum Tempestus book is considered to be "IG" for the purposes of what FW kit you want to give them; so for example you can include Drop Sentinels and Tauros Assault Vehicles into a MT list. Seems like that would be a better fit for what you're looking for, IMO.

Whiskey144 wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:
.........So why can't I use that justification for my guys? Guardsmen suck unless they are utilized in massive amounts of numbers, and I don't want to use them in massive amounts of numbers.

Because realistically, you're basically picked the wrong army for what you want. IG infantry aren't that great- they're flimsy and they are very susceptible to Morale, along with having poor firepower per man.

But IG Infantry are cheap. You can get a lot of bodies on the table if you want to, and that makes a Guardsman a very capable model- given that he's got 50 buddies backing him up. So the real issue is that you don't like the way that the army plays, and you're trying to change a fundamental aspect of it.

Maybe play the Scion "book"? IIRC FW actually gave a semi-official answer that the Militarum Tempestus book is considered to be "IG" for the purposes of what FW kit you want to give them; so for example you can include Drop Sentinels and Tauros Assault Vehicles into a MT list. Seems like that would be a better fit for what you're looking for, IMO.

camo cloaks are impossible to get for scions. Vendettas, heavy sentinels, heavy weapons teams, scout sentinels, ogryns, etc are all disallowed. Not to mention my "regiment" exists outside of the munitorum as it is a mercenary volunteer veteran group. They have dealings with the inquisition due to their freedom from other imperial oversight, as they are unofficially supported by their home world via goods and finances. They are based on the 1st avg of ww2, and their freedom from oversight was one of the reasons that made that squadron so effective. They are not a guard regiment, nor are they a part of the inquisition. They are an independent organization, that so happens to be supported by groups that benefit from their existence.

Secondly the assault squad is not intended to go into melee combat, they are intended for close range infantry engagements where they infiltrate up along the sides of an engagement while the primary force engages them in the center. They then fire upon the enemy at close range with fully automatic weapons. To be successful in this they need to move quickly and eradicate the enemy before they have time to react. If you are saying guardsmen can't flank an enemy and take them out by surprise before the enemy can react, then guardsmen are tactically relegated to the meat grinder that the normal IG Dex is intended for. A large contingent of guardsmen is not stealthy nor is it conducive to quick maneuvering. So what this means is that the imperial guard cannot ever in any way be played the way that I want them to. Thanks, I'll just throw out all of my fluff and go play mechvets and blobs.

I cannot use ANY large or medium sized tracked or wheeled vehicles such as chimeras, wyverns, leman russes, basilisks, baneblades, hellhounds, tauroxs, or manticores as this regiment only operates in densely forested regions like jungles and deciduous forests. This is a severe limitation on my capabilities, but they do this in favor of stealth and maneuverability which that terrain grants them. They are highly specialized in their application and abilities. Their equipment should reflect this specialization. If my troops do not have the equipment to do what they are intended for, then the group would have never developed the tactics that it currently utilizes.

The unit is designed around the gun as the assault rule allows for mobility and a set rate of fire. I would be an idiot if I ever engaged in melee combat with this squad, as they were never intended for that and will get destroyed.

If shred is a problem then instead the gun could have assault 3 as mathematically it is exactly the same as shredding lasguns against marines.

I could settle for range 18 assault 2 w/shred or range 18 assault 3, but anything else and the assault squad is pointless. Even then a 120 pt squad of guardsmen are pretty expensive and squishy without a chimera.

I again set limitations upon myself in how I play. I only give carapace armor to drop troops.

Mercenary...Volunteer?

Anyway

Why cant you just make them Normal vet squads with the forward scouts doctrin for the camo cloaks

and Make a house ruled character that hands out the 3 non vehicle unit gets infiltrate. and mabye hand out an army wide move through cover (forests)

That will let them run up close with 3 special weapons.
Fluff wise shows that these speciests are good at getting up close and personal without being seen (Infiltrate) and with more special equipment than normal (3 special weapons)

 Desubot wrote:
Mercenary...Volunteer?

Anyway

Why cant you just make them Normal vet squads with the forward scouts doctrin for the camo cloaks

and Make a house ruled character that hands out the 3 non vehicle unit gets infiltrate. and mabye hand out an army wide move through cover (forests)

That will let them run up close with 3 special weapons.
Fluff wise shows that these speciests are good at getting up close and personal without being seen (Infiltrate) and with more special equipment than normal (3 special weapons)

I already run only veterans as troops all with camo cloaks. Outflank while it does help, still dosen't allow the unit to succeed in its intent when it enters the board, as it needs hitting power to make them perform that intended purpose, which is to take out other infantry. I don't want to mass my troops as #1 that isn't stealthy, and #2 they wouldn't really be elite if they still required the same amount of troops as a normal guard regiment to kill another infantry unit. They need to give their weapons some kind of special rule, or they need more powerful weapons to accomplish this. The shredder lasgun appears to me, to be completely fine. I have played them twice now and they have died the same turn they have come on because they have never done enough damage to their target to allow for their survival. Both of these times were against marines, which is according to the intention of the gun in line with how it is supposed to perform. They are intended to be used against more "normal" infantry like orks, tau, gretchen, or other weak toughness / low save infantry.

I also don't want to rely wholly on special weapons in order to make them perform that role as #1 I love the look of the lasgun, and #2 it also displays that the unit is capable of eliminating an enemy squad with their skill rather than their special weapons, which is why they are elites.

The normal Ig dex is a problem because all of my "heavy support" options are fast attack. I cannot take sentinels and vendettas in a decent enough number because I am limited in my fast attack choices. Vendettas are powerful, but I would have to take them in squadrons. I have run squadroned vendettas and it severely limits their ability to dish out damage, avoid damage, and adapt to multiple targets. 9 heavy sentinels are only 450 points, which is not enough to fill out the points of a list, nor is it enough fire support. The ig Dex only includes a spattering of vehicles that i can use, which are sentinels and valkyries/vendettas. I need to include forge world vehicles otherwise I am only using vendetta/valkyries and sentinels as I am now.

I cannot take heavy weapons squads as I need to run platoons which are not veterans. Platoons and normal ig infantry are also unable to take camo cloaks, which all of my troops are supposed to have .

This is why I have created my dex, and even with it i have already been tabled turn 3.

I feel like you are trying sooooooo hard to make it fit.

If you need heavy weapons platforms have you considered destroyer platforms?

edit: Honestly if your group is fine with playing it then you already won no need for the thread.
But i feel like you really need to button down the fluff so that we can possible help you fully realize what you want.
I think Assault 3 18" lasgun is fine for the shreder
I feel there is other things to add to help but we need more than the clif notes ya k now?

Destroyer platforms? Like anything with a destroyer weapon? Everything that has a destroyer weapon is either huge and overtly noticeable, or completely immobile, and thus are not able to fit in the tight confines of a forest and remain hidden/unseen. Big stompy things just don't fit in with the tactical and strategic doctrine of the regiment. Knights are big and loud, as are baneblades. The only units that could potentially equip D weapons and still fit in with the modus operandi of the regiment would be flyers, of which the imperial guard has no access to.

edit: and the fluff




Arkan is a temperate world covered in forests. The planet is 25% larger than Terra and revolves around a bright blue star, named Arka. Arkan means of Arka.
The world’s forests consist of taiga, redwood, deciduous, jungle, and pine. No matter where you are on Arkan you are either surrounded by forest, above it, or on the oceans. There are no deserts, or plains, there is only forest. The lack of any kind of environment that does not include forests is due to the rapid rate at which vegetation grows. Once a tree is cut down it only takes a year for a new tree to grow and become just as big as the one that was cut down. No one knows why vegetation grows so quickly, but the ecclesiarchy officially states that it is a gift of the emperor even if reports dating back before contact with the great crusade mention the growth phenomena.

Forests and plants grow so quickly that any indent on the landscape is restored in a short time. This makes permeant settlements, and clearing land for agriculture hard. Force fields seem to have an effect on the rapid growth of vegetation so all major settlements employ their use. Agriculture gets around this problem by consolidating land, labor, and capital into plantations that have force fields on their outskirts that prevent the forest from encroaching on agricultural land, whilst still allowing for the rapid growth of produce. The most common way for agriculture to be done is a nomadic system. Forest fires rage all the time on Arkan and some have found a way to employ them to their benefit. Land that has been cleared by forest fires in quickly turned into temporary agricultural ground where it is utilized until the forest begins to encroach again.

Forest fires are very dangerous and constantly threaten the people of Arken. Walls are erected, and trees are constantly cleared from around settlements to combat the threat. An entire section of the planetary defense force is dedicated to fighting these fires. The men and women that make up this task force are the initiates of the local defense force.
Under the constant threat of fire, and hindered by thousands of miles of forest, traditional vehicles are essentially impossible to utilize for transportation between settlements. In their stead aircraft perform the same role. Without an abundance of aircraft transportation of goods and personnel would be dangerous and hindersome. Due to their importance many people and families have aircraft. These can be small gyro copters, balloons, prop planes, helicopters, jets, VTOL capable aircraft, and amphibious landers. Storage of the majority of the aircraft is in underground hangers that can house an entire settlements supply of aircraft. Airports are the center of commerce and trade on Arkan. Every town has an airport for without one it could not send or receive anything. The abundance of aircraft on Arkan and its imperative use by its citizens makes them a very good pilots and airmen.

Arkan society is pseudo class based. Mutants generally work in the nomadic agricultural and logging trains. Humans of low class either work in the plantations as sweat shop “employees”, as valued workers, or clear the land around settlements for protection from fire. Low class citizens also work as mechanics on the vast array of aircraft. Arkan’s middle class is comprised of cargo pilots, low ranking members of Arkans planetary government, accountants, lawyers, teachers etc. High ranking members of Arkan society are high ranking members of the Planetary Government, members of nepotistic business families, and the descendants of famous persons. Above all of them is the Planetary Governor. The Planetary Governor is elected by the people in a first past the post system. Every citizen of Arkan votes for the Governor and each citizen each has a single vote. The only people that cannot vote are mutants, and criminals. Once a Planetary Governor has been elected he serves until his death at which point a new Governor is voted upon.
The Governor heads the entire planet and is responsible for its defense, imperial tithes, and the wellbeing of the people. The people vote for the candidate that they feel benefits them the most, thus most planetary governors fulfill that purpose well in relation to other imperial worlds. Not all provide for their people though, as that ruse was only needed to get elected, and thus protected by edict of the imperium. Imperial tithes are required of Arkan like almost every other imperial world. It supplies a vast amount of lumber, and produce, so vast that Arkan is not required to give units to the imperial guard or navy.

The Planetary defense force defends the planet from possible invasions, heretics, and lawbreakers. The unique property of Arkan draws a certain kind of criminal. Drug farmers come to Arkan from all over to plant illicit vegetation in the shield of the woods. The planetary defense force employs task forces to find destroy, and execute these criminals and their drugs. It does this by deploying scouting and recon forces on the ground which are equipped with horses that can traverse the terrain for months at a time without needing to refuel. Behind them are light infantry detachments made up of heavy weapons teams, equipped with mortars, rocket launchers, lascannons, and heavy bolters, general infantrymen, and sentinels ,which can traverse the forests due to their bipedal nature. The task force is then supported by air cavalry that drops troops via grav chute, or fast rope. The aerial element also serves to intercept and destroy criminal aircraft. If the situation warrants it can execute aerial boarding protocols with vtol aircraft, against even moving planes.

The lack of imperial guard and navy recruitment has left the PDF with many veterans. In response to this the First Arkan Volunteer Group was formed by a veteran of the pdf that wished to fight on other worlds for the imperium. Ever since then volunteer groups have formed on Arkan that seek to serve the Imperium. The members of the 1ST AVG are the most veteran members of the PDF. They are given leave from the PDF to join the 1st AVG by the Planetary Governor. Each member of the 1st AVG must be given leave by the Governor and then accepted by its commander.

The 1st AVG itself is not under the command of anyone but its leader. It exists outside the authority of the Governor, as he only gives leave to its members and supplies them with some of their equipment. The organization itself is pretty much free to do as it wishes and take on tasks that please it. The freedom that this unit is able to operate with is both a boon and a burden. While the governor gives his blessing and supplies them with some equipment they still possess fewer sources of resources compared to other regiments. To get around this they take on jobs that pay well, and resupply them. Surprisingly they are well equipped even with these logistical nightmares. They contain a vast array of aircraft, sentinels, camo cloaks, carapace armor and the unique shredder lasgun. The shredder lasgun is a normal lasgun modified to allow for a higher rate of fire. In order to facilitate this, the heat dispersion system is replaced with rarer and more expensive materials. The shredder lasgun is expensive and costly to maintain, but its effectiveness has proved it to be more than worth its increased cost. The quality of the group’s equipment has led some to suspect that they are regularly hired by inquisitors to perform jobs as a way to keep inquisitorial involvement shrouded.


The Modus Operandi of the first AVG is to utilize forests and thick vegetation in order to conceal movement and allow for ambushes and unexpected offensives. Troops land and maneuver through the forests on alien worlds to attack the enemy where they are least expecting it. The members of the AVG are used to the forests of their home world, and thus they can more easily remain hidden and maneuver through forests as compared to their enemies and comrades. During their maneuvering they are kept supplied via low altitude covert supply drops done by veteran pilots. One they are in position a coordinated rapid ground and aerial assault is commenced with troops assaulting from the trees, Valkyries and vendettas raining death from above and paratroopers falling from the skies. Once they have taken the position they create a hidden FOB and ambush any incursions into the now occupied zone.
The pilots of the AVG are among the best of the best. The familiarity and necessity of aircraft on Arkan allow for an environment where the best can rise up in the ranks. The 1st AVG is known for the quality of their pilots and their ferocious fighting ability. On every aircraft where it is possible jaws are painted onto the aircraft to represent this ferocious nature. Unique to the 1st AVG is the Lightning Hawk which was first developed as an atmospheric fighter by the Arkan Defense force. This fighter shares many similar flight characteristics with the Imperial Lightning, but due to imperial concerns it has been purposefully neutered to prevent it from void flight. Otherwise the Aircraft is cheap, easy to produce, and performs exceptionally well.
The veterans of the 1st AVG are glory seekers that wish to help the imperium and its people wherever they are need. All they ask in return are supplies and a chance at proving their metal.

 Sledgehammer wrote:
Destroyer platforms? Like anything with a destroyer weapon? Everything that has a destroyer weapon is either huge and overtly noticeable, or completely immobile, and thus are not able to fit in the tight confines of a forest and remain hidden/unseen. Big stompy things just don't fit in with the tactical and strategic doctrine of the regiment. Knights are big and loud, as are baneblades. The only units that could potentially equip D weapons and still fit in with the modus operandi of the regiment would be flyers, of which the imperial guard has no access to.

Oh god no

these things

Compact mobile heavy weapons platforms

There are other versions too like heavy bolters up the wazoo.

Soon there will be Quad mortars and even a TFC one from what it looks like.

Edit: Oh speaking of which are you using Master of Ordance. it helps a bit with the damage from a distance. especially with ignore cover orders and some flavor of twinlinking.

Have you thought about Elysians?
Because all I'm getting from this is "Special Snowflake Syndrome" and a desire to change the entire background and lore of an army just to fit your headcanon. No offence intended.

Well, OP, I have your solution:

1. Use the MT book. Just do it.
2. Ignore Scion fluff, which is easy since it's gak anyways
3. House rule Scions to be able to trade Carapace Armor for Flak+Camo Cloaks for free (or perhaps 5/10 pts per squad)
4. Use the FW Tauros Assault Vehicle/Tauros Venator, which is a 2-man buggy with a heavy weapon on it.
5. Use FW Drop Sentinel Squadrons (FW allows DropSents to be a FA choice in IG armies)
6. Season with Centaur Carriers, a small 5-man capacity artillery tractor (convert up a 4x4 Humvee or something)
7. Add Hades Breaching Drills to taste (underground assaults would probably work well for a force that's from a heavily arboreal world)
8. Use Rapier Carriers as an AT option (Rapiers carry the "Laser Destroyer", a 36" Ordnance 1 S9 AP2 weapon, that is also twin-linked)
9. Maybe include the FW Field Artillery? It's cheap, light, Elites, and can be towed by the similar small Centaur.
10. ???
11. PROFIT

The reason that you can roll Tempestus as the army is because FW actually ruled that MT are considered to be an "IG" army for the purposes of FW publications and what fancy kit you can take. The only downside is that Centaurs, Tauros RAVs/Venators, and DropSents are all FA choices; though if you do decide that Field Artillery (which is basically towed by a Humvee/Jeep equivalent) then you can get Centaurs out of Elites by taking them as "towing" vehicles; given that Scions start at 5-man and then go up to 10, you could, for example, take a 5-man Scion Command Squad with a bunch of HSVGs and throw them into a Centaur; Centaurs are Open-Topped, so you can basically use said Centaur as an ablative AV11/10/10 2HP bunker.

The Rapier Carriers are in HS, while Field Artillery and Hades Drills are in Elites. All you need to do now is house rule Scions as being able to swap their Carapace for Flak+Camo Cloaks.

Yes i always use master of the ordinance.

rapier platforms are probably good, but i hate the model. I'd have to think of a way to make a counts as.



Elysians cannot take camo cloaks, which are modeled on all of my troops. Their heavy weapons teams cannot take lascannons, which i have modeled on them. Heavy sentinels are disallowed and their drop sentinels, which while desirable, cannot take lascannons, plasma cannons, or autocannons while I have 3 of each. They cannot take ogryn, bullgryn or rough riders. Their infantry lack a unit that has the capacity to ever practically engage another enemy infantry unit (both without special weapons) on a 1/1 basis even if they fire the first shots (eg: 10 orks with shootas are going to beat guardsmen because the guardsmen are going to take losses from retaliating fire, and then immediately charged).

 Sledgehammer wrote:
Elysians cannot take camo cloaks, which are modeled on all of my troops.

AFAIK, didn't Elysians have the option for Veteran Squads with camocloaks? If not, houserule.

Their heavy weapons teams cannot take lascannons, which i have modeled on them.

Fairy snuff, houserule that out perhaps?

Heavy sentinels are disallowed and their drop sentinels, which while desirable, cannot take lascannons, plasma cannons, or autocannons while I have 3 of each.

Can't these be obtained via FW?

They cannot take ogryn, bullgryn or rough riders.

Allies from the regular Guard codex, or Unbound.

Their infantry lack a unit that has the capacity to ever practically engage another enemy infantry unit (both without special weapons) on a 1/1 basis even if they fire the first shots (eg: 10 orks with shootas are going to beat guardsmen because the guardsmen are going to take losses from retaliating fire, and then immediately charged).

Now that is an actual thing that happens in the lore. Oddly enough, IG have this happen to them, because they are not uberpowerful gods of war. Just men with a rifle slightly better than ours. Is that easily going to kill a towering, muscly brute that could rip out your throat with ease? I thought not. Guardsmen don't tend to survive too long in a firefight. That's why you bring Veteran Squads with extra special weapons or you bring two squads. Problem solved.

 Sledgehammer wrote:
Yes i always use master of the ordinance.

rapier platforms are probably good, but i hate the model. I'd have to think of a way to make a counts as.



Elysians cannot take camo cloaks, which are modeled on all of my troops. Their heavy weapons teams cannot take lascannons, which i have modeled on them. Heavy sentinels are disallowed and their drop sentinels, which while desirable, cannot take lascannons, plasma cannons, or autocannons while I have 3 of each. They cannot take ogryn, bullgryn or rough riders. Their infantry lack a unit that has the capacity to ever practically engage another enemy infantry unit (both without special weapons) on a 1/1 basis even if they fire the first shots (eg: 10 orks with shootas are going to beat guardsmen because the guardsmen are going to take losses from retaliating fire, and then immediately charged).

Hmm... I'll use the Elysian Infantry Squad, as you specifically mention the Elysian list (and it's been brought up a few times anyways):

Elysian Infantry: 63 points*; versus 10x Ork Shoota Boyz, costing 70 points

So in the situation you described, the Guardsmen and Orks are actually about equal; the Elysian Infantry Squad has to pay an extra 3 points to give the Sergeant a Lasgun... but that Lasgun also comes with an Auxiliary GL, and at Rapid Fire range you can dump Krak or Frag grenades on things instead of using the Lasgun.

Oh, and the Elysians still cost less by 7 points, and trade WS/T 4 for BS/I 3, while also gaining +1Ld, 5+ instead of 6+ armor, and the ability to Deep Strike in. I'd say that's still a fantastic deal and a great squad.

Oh, and if your problems are "but muh models are differents!"... then proxy things. Seriously, just try it; given that this whole idea is "it's for a campaign, not PUG/competitive use", then I'm sure that your group will be gracious enough to deal with proxied models and houseruling in things.

I read your fluff, and no offence, but aren't these guys basically just catachans jungle fighters?

Also, why is there an imperial world that doesn't recruit soldiers? Every world of the Imperium has to provide troops. Next, how do these guys get around? They don't work with the navy at all, so who's going to give them a ship?

Furthermore, you say that these guys are veterans before they even formed this army, right? Remind me then how they're veterans? All they do is kill drug traffickers, when they see an ork horde they're likely to piss themselves. They've never been in any sort of actual battle according to what you said. Just being old doesn't make you a veteran, years of warfare make you a veteran.

Who actually pays these guys? There is no such thing as being "hired" by the inquisition. Oh, you're not willing to serve the Emperor unless we give you priceless tech and tons of riches? BLAM HERESY.

Guardsmen serve for the sake of serving, and they die in the name of the emperor. And no one, under any circumstances, cares how many guardsmen die. Because there's a trillion to take your place. Why pay for your services when they can just send a million guardsmen to do it? Or if it's that serious, the astartes kick their butts.

You keep making these guys sound like they deserve better gear and more attention than astartes, when a thousand guardsmen, no matter how trained, is not worth the life of one astartes.

Throw in against that the statistics prove that your special guardsmen will win against every single unit of equal points if they're 24" assault 2 shred.

They're still guardsmen. Nothing is going to change that. They are lower than dirt by imperium standards.

 kingbobbito wrote:
I read your fluff, and no offence, but aren't these guys basically just catachans jungle fighters?

Also, why is there an imperial world that doesn't recruit soldiers? Every world of the Imperium has to provide troops. Next, how do these guys get around? They don't work with the navy at all, so who's going to give them a ship?

Furthermore, you say that these guys are veterans before they even formed this army, right? Remind me then how they're veterans? All they do is kill drug traffickers, when they see an ork horde they're likely to piss themselves. They've never been in any sort of actual battle according to what you said. Just being old doesn't make you a veteran, years of warfare make you a veteran.

Who actually pays these guys? There is no such thing as being "hired" by the inquisition. Oh, you're not willing to serve the Emperor unless we give you priceless tech and tons of riches? BLAM HERESY.

Guardsmen serve for the sake of serving, and they die in the name of the emperor. And no one, under any circumstances, cares how many guardsmen die. Because there's a trillion to take your place. Why pay for your services when they can just send a million guardsmen to do it? Or if it's that serious, the astartes kick their butts.

You keep making these guys sound like they deserve better gear and more attention than astartes, when a thousand guardsmen, no matter how trained, is not worth the life of one astartes.

Throw in against that the statistics prove that your special guardsmen will win against every single unit of equal points if they're 24" assault 2 shred.

They're still guardsmen. Nothing is going to change that. They are lower than dirt by imperium standards.

QFT, but this is for rules and ideas.
However, I do agree wholeheartedly with your fluff concerns. It seems that you have jumped headfirst into your headcanon without considering the lore of the IG, other than the fact they are humans, and tried to make them more than what they usually are.
The Tanith fit your bill of veteran guardsmen who are stealth light infantry specialists. Perhaps read up on them a bit?