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Made in us
Member of the Malleus






One of the greatest instances of cognitive dissonance in the 40k fluff that I have had involves the Thousand sons and their primarch, Magnus.

1. The emperor created Magnus' genetic make up specifically to create a super psyker (one you don't even have to pump )
2. He creates a legion based on that material that is much more prone to produce psykers, but it also produces mutations.
3. by this point the emepror understand the nature of the warp and knows its dangers, but creates the legion anyway
4. When Magnus delves too deeply and enough psyker shenaniganry goes on the emperor Bans Psyker/sorcery powers with the council of Nikea.

it pretty much goes down hill for the fifteenth form there.

I have read that the theory for Magnus is that he was intended to sit he golden throne and power the astronomicon. I can get that, but if the emperor knew about the true nature of the warp, and psykers, why would he create Magnus and his legion to shut them down. That would be like telling the iron warriors not to lay siege to things, or the raven guard not to be stealthy, or the Ultramarines not to be anal and organize everything.

I mean I guess I could see this as a "lets see how this goes" kind of a thing, but it is a pretty crap move to base the entire existence of 10000 + individuals and purposely create one of the primarchs suited specifically to this concept only to take it away and expect everyone to be OK with it.

Any other theories as to why this happened?


The Emperor Protects
Strike Force Voulge led by Lord Inquisitor Severus Vaul: 7000 points painted
 
   
Made in gb
Thermo-Optical Hac Tao





Gosport, UK

I just think he didn't expect Magnus to disobey him like he did. Hubris basically. Ironically that was Magnus' downfall too. But Magnus went too far and the Emperor reasoned he should probably nip it in the bud. The TS were still Space Marines after all, still perfectly capable of warfare so it wouldn't be a complete waste.
   
Made in us
Terrifying Rhinox Rider





I have some answers I think.

Creating the Thousand Sons was part of a different plan than creating Magnus, as written in Realms of Chaos, copied below. So that leads to this series of events:

1. The Emperor conceives of the primarch program, potentially for purposes including putting Magnus on the golden throne.

2. Chaos steals the primarchs, this implies that the Emperor wanted them all on earth for the beginning of the crusade, and needed them in a specific time frame. It's possible he wanted to get them back as fast as possible.

3. Then the Emperor came up with the Space Marines and Thousand Sons, as reaction to losing Magnus and the Primarchs. This means that they were made either to help get the primarchs back, or as part of a separate plan not related to Magnus sitting on the throne et al.

4. The Emperor had made super soldiers before he made the Primarchs, so there was probably some utility related to the loss of the primarchs.

My supposition is that this means that having legions that were genetically related to the primarchs out searching for them was helpful in recovering the primarchs quickly. That is, Leman Russ was made with wolf DNA, and he wound up on a planet filled with wolf DNA, so perhaps having a legion made up of Leman Russ' DNA helped the primarch become reunited with his cloned DNA.

So, the Emperor made Magnus to just sit on the Throne and not be out in the galaxy fiddling with magic and leading a legion of troops, and effective stay home under the Emperor's thumb. What Chaos actually did by stealing the primarchs was force the Emperor to make the Legions, which gave their primarchs significant military and political power they weren't supposed to have, and that allowed the heresy. The primarchs were supposed to be part of a single giant government/society/military, but having legions broke them into autonomous entities and that caused the Heresy.

The Emperor had lost the Primarchs and the first action of his renewed war against the Chaos Powers. The Primarchs could not be recreated and even if this were possible there was not time to do it. The birth pangs of Slaanesh grew louder and louder as the time of his waking grew near. The Emperor evolved another plan. Using genetic material which had been imprinted from the Primarchs into laboratory gholems, some of their qualities could be reproduced as discrete biological organs. By implanting these organs into a young growing body a person with some of the qualities of the Primarchs could be created, in this way the first Space Marine Chapters were founded. Each Chapter utilised genetic material derived from one of the Primarchs.

   
Made in gb
Thermo-Optical Hac Tao





Gosport, UK

I don't think he made the Space Marines just to find the Primarchs. The Primarchs were always meant to lead the space marines (in more recent fluff).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/09 00:15:16


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Orlando Florida

About the council of Nikea.

I'm under the impression that the council was a political movement more than anything else. The librarian issue split a lot of the unity the legions needed during the crusade, and there was nothing stopping the emperor from lifting the ban once the crusade was finished. Sure, Magnus was supposed to power the Astronomican, but I'm pretty sure the rest of the legion had a purpose too.

Astropaths burn out. Their mortal frames can't handle the job for all that long, and the extreme variance between human minds makes astropathic communication more art than science. I propose that the thousand sons legion was supposed to take the place of the astra telepathica once the crusade finished, their experience in dealing with the warp and battle communication would create more than enough shared experience to make astropathic communication a much more precise method. Astartes bodies can handle the rigors of the warp better than humans, thus making them last far longer in service.

As far as the mutation thing goes, I get the idea that was just something the Emperor couldn't entirely fix. Magnus managed to hold off the flesh-change for a long time, given the resources he probably could have cured it entirely. Much like the emperor delegated conquest to Horus, he likely would have delegated this to Magnus.

No real evidence to back it up, but it's how I've always viewed it.

www.angrymojogames.com

Budget terrain, accessories, and awesome 
   
Made in us
Sinewy Scourge






AngryMojo wrote:
Spoiler:


As far as the mutation thing goes, I get the idea that was just something the Emperor couldn't entirely fix. Magnus managed to hold off the flesh-change for a long time, given the resources he probably could have cured it entirely. Much like the emperor delegated conquest to Horus, he likely would have delegated this to Magnus.

The reason why Magnus was able to stop the mutations, if I recall, was because Tzeetch allowed him too though.
Furthermore (unrelated to your post, mor towards OP), Tzeetch manipulated Magnus into collapsing the webway project the emperor was working on. Ergo, Magnus was pretty much a pawn the entire time, and the emperor probably realized this to some extent. Before he could really act on any suspicions though, or do anything about the use of psychic powers, the wolves eradicated the sons. So essentially, I dont think he planned on actually upholding the edict at Nikea for forever, but rather it was just a temporary measure, until he could find a way to make sure the same catastrophe that happened with the webway didnt happen again.

"Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons."
 
   
Made in gb
Humorless Arbite





Hull

 Jollydevil wrote:
AngryMojo wrote:
Spoiler:


As far as the mutation thing goes, I get the idea that was just something the Emperor couldn't entirely fix. Magnus managed to hold off the flesh-change for a long time, given the resources he probably could have cured it entirely. Much like the emperor delegated conquest to Horus, he likely would have delegated this to Magnus.

The reason why Magnus was able to stop the mutations, if I recall, was because Tzeetch allowed him too though.
Furthermore (unrelated to your post, mor towards OP), Tzeetch manipulated Magnus into collapsing the webway project the emperor was working on. Ergo, Magnus was pretty much a pawn the entire time, and the emperor probably realized this to some extent. Before he could really act on any suspicions though, or do anything about the use of psychic powers, the wolves eradicated the sons. So essentially, I dont think he planned on actually upholding the edict at Nikea for forever, but rather it was just a temporary measure, until he could find a way to make sure the same catastrophe that happened with the webway didnt happen again.


That's right, Magnus made a deal with Tzeentch to stop the flesh change (Tzeentch probably planted their flesh change gene-seed flaw in the first place). Tzeentch used the Flesh-Change to accomplish a couple things at once - Firstly, to earn some of Magnus' trust (which he used to convince him to push through the Emperor's webway) and to force Ahriman's hand later on to create the rubric.

Also the webway being destroyed by Magnus happened after the Council of Nikea, Magnus believed warning the Emperor was worth using his powers even when forbidden. The Emperor had already known though, so all Magnus achieved was to destroy everything the Emperor had been working on and risk a new eye of terror opening on Terra. Obviously the Emperor was annoyed as all feth, not only was his edict totally ignored but his treasured prize, what he believed would lead humanity into a new golden age of travel, was smashed and so he sent the wolves to arrest Magnus.

I do agree though, I don't believe that the Emperor would have enforced the Edict of Nikea forever... I think he just wanted to get the Crusade over and done with and then deal with these problems afterwards (OR MAYBE NOT. Maybe his plan was to eradicate the Space Marines after the Crusade like he did with the Thunder Warriors and so he implemented the edict just to shut up the other legions for a while).

   
Made in gr
Alluring Sorcerer of Slaanesh






Reading, UK

My take on it is the Emperor created the flesh change on purpose knowing that Magnus would not leave his Sons. Eventually the Flesh change would destroy the legion and Magnus would have no other purpose but to assist his father and take over the Golden Throne.

I believe the Edict of Nikaea was to be enforced forever to try and hide the true nature of the warp and its denizens. Perhaps why he never also went into a great deal of detail about it with the Primarchs.

No pity, no remorse, no shoes 
   
Made in cn
Stealthy Space Wolves Scout





The Emperor was not against the use of Psykers, one of his closest council and friend was a powerful psyker. And he himself approved of Magnus' proposal to establish librarians corp amongst the legions.
The Council of Nikea was not the Emperor's idea, he consented to such a public display of sibling rivalry only because the Legion Astartes were split on the Librarians issue. The Emperor's final decision was made once he realized Magnus had been "secretly" endorsing the practice of sorcery within his Legion against his warnings (which Magnus knew full well what the Emperor meant yet still went ahead and ignored them). Knowing that Magnus, the most pronounced, if not the most powerful, psyker on the council had acquired all these arcane knowledge yet lack the wisdom to guard and utilize them would only backfire on Magnus (and the ultimately the Great Crusade), the Emperor forbade Magnus and all Astartes from studying and using Warp magicks.
Needless to say it failed, as the use of sorcery was deeply rooted in many legions (yes, whether some realized this or not). SW did not realize the issue is theirs also, and the WS could not simply stop their stormseers' practices. TS even less so.
As for what's the point of the thousand sons, they did not started out mutated. It only showed up years after they are officially sent off to the GC. So they are expunged from imperial record by virtual of lasting long enough to find Magnus the Red, so Magnus can sacrifice one of his eyes and made a pact with Tzeentch.
A Thousand Sons implies that Magnus was at first set to sit upon the Golden Throne. The Golden Throne is also described as an ancient machinery, probably dug up from somewhere. So the Emperor would have been planning to use it once he found it, but was only waiting because he needed the warp to reunite all humanity under his banner first.
   
Made in gr
Alluring Sorcerer of Slaanesh






Reading, UK

 lcmiracle wrote:
The Emperor was not against the use of Psykers, one of his closest council and friend was a powerful psyker. And he himself approved of Magnus' proposal to establish librarians corp amongst the legions.


As with anything concerning the Emperor, there is more to this. You should have a read of Daemonology.

You tell me you will refuse to serve if psychic potential remains in the Legions,’ said Malcador, watching the view continue to expand. ‘I believe you. It has been at the forefront of the Emperor’s mind for many generations. There are complexities to overcome, but much of His labour has been expended on that very question. This is a part of it.’



'This is Nikaea, Mortarion. It is a world with a destiny, and you will have a part to play there.’

Mortarion appeared to be caught between emotions – the perennial distrust, leavened by an undoubted curiosity.

‘What are you telling me?’ he asked, grudgingly.

‘That you are valued, Mortarion. You will be mighty, as strong as the bones of the earth, and a pillar of your Father’s vision.’ Malcador dared reach out to him, to rest a hand on the primarch’s colossal wrist. ‘Remain true to us, and He will give you this. You will speak there, to make your case before the eyes of the entire Imperium, to unburden yourself of the things that you now carry unaided. For now, we must perforce build an empire with forbidden tools. But a day will come when all these things are no longer necessary.’

No pity, no remorse, no shoes 
   
Made in au
Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot





If you want a tinfoil theory, then maybe the Emperor created the flesh change to kill of the Thousand Sons.

   
Made in gb
Thermo-Optical Hac Tao





Gosport, UK

 natpri771 wrote:
If you want a tinfoil theory, then maybe the Emperor created the flesh change to kill of the Thousand Sons.



To what end?
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Cadia(help)

 ImAGeek wrote:
 natpri771 wrote:
If you want a tinfoil theory, then maybe the Emperor created the flesh change to kill of the Thousand Sons.



To what end?


Free up Magnus for his career on the Golden Throne?
   
Made in il
Troubled By Non-Compliant Worlds





I like how you presume the Great Crusade has an end.

"Why? It is as I have already said, We knew from the beginning we could not stand, But it did not matter, 'Iron Within, Iron Without'. We made them pay". 
   
Made in gb
Thermo-Optical Hac Tao





Gosport, UK

 Shidank wrote:
 ImAGeek wrote:
 natpri771 wrote:
If you want a tinfoil theory, then maybe the Emperor created the flesh change to kill of the Thousand Sons.



To what end?


Free up Magnus for his career on the Golden Throne?


I know that's a theory, I just wanted to see if natpri had a different one.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Cadia(help)

 ImAGeek wrote:
 Shidank wrote:
 ImAGeek wrote:
 natpri771 wrote:
If you want a tinfoil theory, then maybe the Emperor created the flesh change to kill of the Thousand Sons.



To what end?


Free up Magnus for his career on the Golden Throne?


I know that's a theory, I just wanted to see if natpri had a different one.


Probably something to do with galactic lumberjack contests. Or experimenting to see how far the gene that produces powerful psykers could be pushed before mutation went wild.
   
Made in dk
Unhealthy Competition With Other Legions





 Shidank wrote:
 ImAGeek wrote:
 natpri771 wrote:
If you want a tinfoil theory, then maybe the Emperor created the flesh change to kill of the Thousand Sons.



To what end?


Free up Magnus for his career on the Golden Throne?

Magnus was more than willing to sit on Golden Throne. There wasn't any need to force him on it.


 amanita wrote:
So dare I ask what happens if he farts? Could it blow the seals on the lower portion of his armor? Or is a space marine's system immune to such mundane fluctuations of bodily conduct?

 Moktor wrote:
No one should be complaining about this codex. It gave regular Eldar a much needed buff by allowing us to drop Fire Dragons and D-Scythe Wraithguard wherever we want, without scatter. Without this, I almost lost a game once. It was scary. I almost took to buying fixed dice to ensure it never happened again.
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Cadia(help)

 Redcruisair wrote:

Magnus was more than willing to sit on Golden Throne. There wasn't any need to force him on it.



Read on, my hair-trigger friend
   
Made in dk
Unhealthy Competition With Other Legions





So? I only commented on the first part of your post, since latter half didn't really interest me. : /


 amanita wrote:
So dare I ask what happens if he farts? Could it blow the seals on the lower portion of his armor? Or is a space marine's system immune to such mundane fluctuations of bodily conduct?

 Moktor wrote:
No one should be complaining about this codex. It gave regular Eldar a much needed buff by allowing us to drop Fire Dragons and D-Scythe Wraithguard wherever we want, without scatter. Without this, I almost lost a game once. It was scary. I almost took to buying fixed dice to ensure it never happened again.
 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Striking Scorpion





My understanding of the whole story was always that the Emperor did not just create the Primarchs as a science experiment. They were intended to be his sons as well.

He used his own genetic material to create them, and to "grow" them into physical beings, but that was never supposed to be the end of it.

Assume things had gone differently and Chaos had never interfered:
The Primarchs would have all be "born" on Terra, and "raised" by their father, who is (at least for the purposes of this explanation) perfect. He would teach them like real fathers teach real sons. He wanted to shape every part of the Primarchs, not just create super-human soldiers to serve as soldiers in a war - After all, he was more than able to lead a crusade of soldiers without them.

But this DID go wrong. Chaos would probably have loved to just kill all the infant primarchs, but for some some plot-protected purpose they were 'only' able to scatter them about the galaxy instead.

It makes sense that a great many things would have been different if the Primarchs has been raised at home on Terra - Lorgar would never have been found on the planet he fell on, and he would never have fallen to Chaos - or engineered Horus' fall. If the Emperor's plan had gone off without a hitch, there would have been no rebellion, no need for him to Challenge all the Chaos Powers in his son's body - and no need for him to "die". Thus... no need for the Golden Throne for Magnus to even sit on.

So it's unlikely that he "made" Magnus to sit on anything...

That all being said... the Emperor does have some serious foreseeing mojo - it's possible he took every action specifically to get to where we are now... but that's speculative and doesn't really fit the Emperor's character in the narrative.

The 'raising' of the Primarchs was as much a part of their overall creation process as their biomechanical organisms - that was the part that was interrupted by the forces of Chaos for fear of what they would become if the Emperor's plans were to succeed. After all, How terrifying would Magnus be as 'one of the good guys'? And he is but one of twenty very big threats to the very existence of Chaos.
   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh





TSons and Ahriman want to get into an eldar webway portal and find the secret Black Library to steal the tome of spells to make Tsons whole and free from mutation. Or at least find some good old Eldar porno magazines.
   
 
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