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I was really disappointed when Ghazgkhull came out in the new codex as weak as he is. I keep trying to think of ways to fix him, without making him OP. I've come up with a variety of things, any of which would balance him.
1. Give him a 4++ base
- this would really increase his durability and make him worthwhile.

2. Allow his Waaagh to last 2 turns
- this would really represent his fearsome prescence on the battlefield, and how he inspires the Orks around him. Allowing all MA Orks to run as a part of this could be an additional thing.

3. Bring back the auto 6" run from last Dex.
- that was a really effective force multiplier that could make Ghazzy worth it, especially in larger games.

4. Give him effigy
-( Discussed in other thread)

I think any of these upgrades would really give Ghazzy an edge against a DLS MA Warboss. As is, the Warboss is better than Ghazzy in almost every way. And for the love of Gork and Mork, give Ghazzy TL on his Big Shoota already!
Does anyone think these ideas would work?

I think his Big shoota should be TL regardless of any future upgrades. He should get a 4+ FNP instead of a 4++ that would make sense seeing as nobody in the entire ork army gets an Invul except the KFF/MFF. Furthermore, he should have access to Relics, especially Da Lucky Stick, sense it used to belong to his favorite grot and everything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ohh, and Effigy should be a given. hes the holy prophet of the waaagh, why doesnt he have crusader?

 Ghazkuul wrote:
I think his Big shoota should be TL regardless of any future upgrades. He should get a 4+ FNP instead of a 4++ that would make sense seeing as nobody in the entire ork army gets an Invul except the KFF/MFF. Furthermore, he should have access to Relics, especially Da Lucky Stick, sense it used to belong to his favorite grot and everything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ohh, and Effigy should be a given. hes the holy prophet of the waaagh, why doesnt he have crusader?

I could see him giving a bubble buff of Crusader to nearby units but honestly Zealot makes more sense if you want to give a sense of his religious properties as a conduit of Gork and Mork since Crusader only adds D3 to your run move or sweeping advance rolls, of which any unit with SnP (like Ghazzy) cannot do outside of his WAAAGH. Even then his rule of Prophet of Gork and Mork doesn't let you sweeping advance so you lose half the benefits of the rule.

It's an upgrade no one will probably ever get (Well, Orks wont anyway, despite it making the most sense) is that Ghaz should be swinging at Init. It might be considered TOO GOOD, but I always felt it fits. This guy is constantly in this suit, knows how to fight in it, and is the living will of Gork and Mork. He knows no fear and gives zero gaks. Swing that klaw too and fro!

I dunno. He's a unit that is talked up in the fluff, but GW doesn't seem to know how to represent him on the tabletop...or blatantly don't want to give the biggest and da baddest Boss ever anything special. :(

Melevolence wrote:
It's an upgrade no one will probably ever get (Well, Orks wont anyway, despite it making the most sense) is that Ghaz should be swinging at Init. It might be considered TOO GOOD, but I always felt it fits. This guy is constantly in this suit, knows how to fight in it, and is the living will of Gork and Mork. He knows no fear and gives zero gaks. Swing that klaw too and fro!

I dunno. He's a unit that is talked up in the fluff, but GW doesn't seem to know how to represent him on the tabletop...or blatantly don't want to give the biggest and da baddest Boss ever anything special. :(

Yeah, its a pity his innate stats aren't buffed up to be more reflective of him being physically one of the largest warbosses around, practically on MC levels. I always felt he should at least be T6 with 5 wounds to show how dead 'ard he was to take down, in addition to having a proppa invuln. save. Unfortunately, GW treats most xenos (Necrons and Eldar excluded) factions as NPC's for SM players to slap around, hence the general design on making us oddly easy to kill despite saying otherwise in the fluff.

A warboss in Mega Armor, with Da Lucky stick costs 125pts
Ghaz costs 225pts

The differences between the two? Ghaz has 1 more wound, 1 more attack and eternal warrior. Ohh and he gets his big shoota instead of the Warboss's Twin linked shoota. so 3 S5 shots instead of 2 S4 shots rerolling.

Furthermore the Warboss with DLS grants his entire unit +1 WS AND he gets to reroll anything he wants until he fails 3 in one phase.

So is eternal warrior and +1 wound and +1 Attacks really worth 100pts? The reason I ask is that a Space marine can take the shield eternal for 50pts and get eternal warrior AND a 3+ invul save.....So why is it so expensive to field Ghaz when a Space Marine Captain can beat him up? for less points

Space Marine Captain with the Shield Eternal and a Powerfist costs 75pts less then ghaz and will more then likely BEAT ghaz in a straight up CC fight. WTF!

I like the 2-turn WAAAGH idea.

He also needs Fearless and a TL bigshoota.

That's it - he'd be good for the points even without an innate invul.

But we're not likely to see it coming. There's no shortage on Ghazzy sales as his model is old and he's seen A LOT of fielding time in 4-5 editions. Besides, ork players often buy him for looks and fluff. It's our own bane

Ghaz should be fearless, TL Bigshoota, and should give some kind of buff to nearby ork units. +Movement, +leadership, something that would make me want to field the best ork in the game.

I always found it kind of weird there's an outright lack of 'buffs' in this game. You'd think that you'd have certain units give other units a bit of a push up, you know? Especially when it comes to making a themed army and all that jazz. I'm really surprised there doesn't seem to be enough of it.

I mean, IG have it with Orders and I'm certain they have other characters that grant other bonuses (outside of FNP and stuff like that of course).

Like, things like the Slaanesh psychic table is a great example of a Sorcerer granting strength to a unit. By using the Symphony of Pain power, you debuff your opponent all while buffing your Noise Marines if you happen to be playing a heavy Slaanesh theme. Two birds, one stone, for a fairly easy power to cast. Or you can use another Slaanesh power to boost up a stat of your unit (Granted, it's random and should be able to be chosen by the caster).

Basically, most of the God powers fill that 'buff' or 'debuff' role very well, granting nice synergy for your chosen play style.

Orks should do the same. B. Meks should grant some sort of general area bonus for Walkers, while Warbosses and Ghaz should do nice static buffs for Boyz, Nobz, and Mega Nobz, while Zagstruk should do the same for Stormboyz, etc etc etc.

Yes, I suppose Warlord traits also do that, but being random...it doesn't work like it should.

Suppose that's the bane of their dumb as sin random table syndrome...

He absolutely should be fearless. No ork anywhere in the galaxy is going to be afraid of anything more than they are of him.

while i would like fearless and other "why deonst ghaz have these!" kind of buffs, i think "thinking outside the box" for fielding him would be another alternative. have his model technically on the battle field but representing something else.

here are some ideas off the top of my head (sorry most of these are walker ideas, what kan i say, im a deathskull that loves his dredd mob).

"ghaz the deffdredd"
bulk up the model and run him as a walker that wrecks in melee and has 2 bigshootas base. keep him alive with the riggers, a bigmek with kff and da fixer upperz. his ability to be inspirational could be represented by hosting a kan wall b4 him (since a deffdredd gives kanz bonuses to their psudo leadership tests). run all the boyz behind his kan wall and you have ghaz leading from the front of a hoard.

"ghaz's personal stompa"
instead of the normal head the stompa gets have ghaz up there jacked into the whole thing as one deadly git that will make the enemy cower in fear when they realize the super heavy walker has a mek in it with the 4++ mff and filled to the brim with repair roles. whats better is that the stompa grants fearless to all infantry around it, thus his inspiring presence (though warbikers and stormboysz are about the only thing that can keep up with a super heavy walker).

just think outside the box of having ghazkull in your army and you might surprise yourself with what you come up with (just always be sure to reasonable in proxies and your opponents are ok with it)

Having ghazghkull as a deff dread would be the worst. He would soak up the entire teams fire and explode first turn like Dreads already do.

The stompa idea is kind of interesting except that the rules you provided for it already exist and can be taken normally. The ghazghkull stompa would have to have some extra buffs in order for it to be viable compared to just a regular Stompa that again grants fearless and can have a 4++ big mek inside.

For the most part in close combat GW was thinking his t5 would make hid fnp invuln like. This isn't how it ended up paying though and outside his 2++ waagh turn ap2 will ruin his day. Something as small as t6 and a 4++, or 5++ is all he needs. I have had ghazghkull solo knights before when he was with a retinue and they could tank the wounds.

I can see GW's reluctance to give Ghazghkull an invulnerable, but he should have FNP. He has cybork pieces by the mad dok himself, and yet he lacks the bonuses of a warboss with crude bioniks.

If the won't give him invulnerable, bring give him a 4+/5+ FNP.

A bubble of stubborn would also do wonders for encouraging me to field him.

 koooaei wrote:
There's no shortage on Ghazzy sales as his model is old and he's seen A LOT of fielding time in 4-5 editions. Besides, ork players often buy him for looks and fluff. It's our own bane

So true. I own two of Ghazzy models, one metal and one finecast, even though I have only ever fielded him once.

mhalko1 wrote:

The stompa idea is kind of interesting except that the rules you provided for it already exist and can be taken normally. The ghazghkull stompa would have to have some extra buffs in order for it to be viable compared to just a regular Stompa that again grants fearless and can have a 4++ big mek inside.

you missed what i was trying to get at. i wasnt suggesting ways to "make up" rules for him, i was suggesting ways to field the model without bending rules. yeah sure, you might houserule toughness 6 or a 4 up fnp but where does it end? when those dont make him as ard as you think he should be then its another point in toughness or something then it all becomes convoluted. i was suggesting a way to field him without taking the risks of unbalancing too much.

mhalko1 wrote:
Having ghazghkull as a deff dread would be the worst. He would soak up the entire teams fire and explode first turn like Dreads already do.

i must be missing something here, because whether he is a dredd or not ghaz would still be the 1st target for ranged attacks in any game where someone wants the bane of Armageddon dead. again im just suggesting different ways to field him. if you dont like the deffdredd then try the fw megadredd. that thing is much more harder to kill cause of its stock invul and cheap grot riggers (heck, it deosnt have to be a walker, try a warboss with dls, most people say that is a better choice anyway).

 the Signless wrote:
I can see GW's reluctance to give Ghazghkull an invulnerable, but he should have FNP. He has cybork pieces by the mad dok himself, and yet he lacks the bonuses of a warboss with crude bioniks.

If the won't give him invulnerable, bring give him a 4+/5+ FNP.

A bubble of stubborn would also do wonders for encouraging me to field him.

 koooaei wrote:
There's no shortage on Ghazzy sales as his model is old and he's seen A LOT of fielding time in 4-5 editions. Besides, ork players often buy him for looks and fluff. It's our own bane

So true. I own two of Ghazzy models, one metal and one finecast, even though I have only ever fielded him once.

Ghaz has a 6+ FNP but since its only 6+ its the worst extra save allowed. If space marine terminators get a 5++ and most good HQ choices have access to at least wargear that gives them a 4++ why can't gaz have a 4++ built into him somehow?

geargutz wrote:

mhalko1 wrote:

The stompa idea is kind of interesting except that the rules you provided for it already exist and can be taken normally. The ghazghkull stompa would have to have some extra buffs in order for it to be viable compared to just a regular Stompa that again grants fearless and can have a 4++ big mek inside.

you missed what i was trying to get at. i wasnt suggesting ways to "make up" rules for him, i was suggesting ways to field the model without bending rules. yeah sure, you might houserule toughness 6 or a 4 up fnp but where does it end? when those dont make him as ard as you think he should be then its another point in toughness or something then it all becomes convoluted. i was suggesting a way to field him without taking the risks of unbalancing too much.

mhalko1 wrote:
Having ghazghkull as a deff dread would be the worst. He would soak up the entire teams fire and explode first turn like Dreads already do.

i must be missing something here, because whether he is a dredd or not ghaz would still be the 1st target for ranged attacks in any game where someone wants the bane of Armageddon dead. again im just suggesting different ways to field him. if you dont like the deffdredd then try the fw megadredd. that thing is much more harder to kill cause of its stock invul and cheap grot riggers (heck, it deosnt have to be a walker, try a warboss with dls, most people say that is a better choice anyway).

I am just thinking along the lines of a dread AV12 can pop with one melta hit or a plasma hit. Right now he is tougher than a dread. He can be hidden in large blobs of boyz and has eternal warrior so even if he was on his own a melta or plasma couldn't instakill him. This is why I don't believe he needs an alternate way to be fielded but instead needs stat changes or rule adjustments.
Your point about how constant change would make it imbalanced i don't think is true. small changes in playtesting and through house ruling is the correct way to find out exactly what what he needs. Everyone could try new things and bring it to dakka to share with everyone. Yes if you keep adding buffs he is going to become OP. But small changes like an extra Toughness or a better FNP or an invuln.... introduced not all at once could find him fielded more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There's no shortage on Ghazzy sales as his model is old and he's seen A LOT of fielding time in 4-5 editions. Besides, ork players often buy him for looks and fluff. It's our own bane

I usually run Ghaz as my MA Warboss with DLS :-P

Have you tried out any of the homerules you're proposing on the tabletop?

I tried using Ghaz with a 3++ today actually, It worked fairly well in the way that I would like to be able to play him.

1k pt game, I took ghaz with a 3++ and put him in a unit of boyz and marched him up the board to harass my space marine opponent. Worked very well and unfortunately I would have to say TO well. I think he needs a invul but maybe a 4++ would be better. 3++ is a bit to cheesy.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
I tried using Ghaz with a 3++ today actually, It worked fairly well in the way that I would like to be able to play him.

1k pt game, I took ghaz with a 3++ and put him in a unit of boyz and marched him up the board to harass my space marine opponent. Worked very well and unfortunately I would have to say TO well. I think he needs a invul but maybe a 4++ would be better. 3++ is a bit to cheesy.

For a 1k point game it's cheesy, yeah. But giving him the 3++ would make him worth his LOW status. The whole point is LOWs should be terrifying, as there is only one of them allowed on your team (Typically 1 in the galaxy, as they tend to be named characters as the general idea, though obviously some exceptions. Warmachines tend to be hard to build or rare, so they fit this concept). Ghazzy is supposed to be power. Feared. A neigh unstoppable force with countless other Orks at his beck and call. As he stands on the tabletop, I'd never let my Boyz follow him, as he dies far too easily for his own good and isn't much of a threat to anyone. If anything, he's a handicap compared to our kitted out Warboss for less.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
I tried using Ghaz with a 3++ today actually, It worked fairly well in the way that I would like to be able to play him.

1k pt game, I took ghaz with a 3++ and put him in a unit of boyz and marched him up the board to harass my space marine opponent. Worked very well and unfortunately I would have to say TO well. I think he needs a invul but maybe a 4++ would be better. 3++ is a bit to cheesy.

Good! this is the kind of thing I felt was necessary. You played him with a 3++ found out it's a little too powerful and will make a correction until you find a good balance.