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I mean I know it seems like another thread about these two, but just hear me out. It's not to talk about what you think happened to them, I mean you can if you want, but it's not what it's here for. My question is do you think that this is a good piece of fluff? That they're missing. Personally I dislike it and wish it wouldn't be so. Would you rather they never be missing and be part of the story? Thoughts?

I think that it'd be nice if they were reincorperated into the story, and they would try to fix the IoM, but since no one knows about them, they have a really hard time about it. Or they make a new human faction that follows the Imperial Truth. In reality, I think they are just there to help show that information was lost during Heresy.

Every good setting needs a mystery that is never fully explained (just with little hints every now and then). I like that they are missing and mysterious, because it is fun to speculate about what happened to them.

I'm wondering if the 2 redacted events in the timeline involving the Space Wolves in HH book2 might be the destruction of those legions.

In the HH book "The First Heretic" it is made clear that the primarchs were intentionally forgotten and their brothers promised never to speak of them.

The Word Bearers were being threatened with the same fate and a vote was taken up to decide what would happen, with the SW vote seeming to have some importance.

Also the Ultramarines legion had a noticeable increase in their numbers immediately following the destruction of the two legions if you were wondering what happen to their Astares.

this aspect of 40k always fascinated me that even before the Heresy, what could two entire legions do that not only warrant their destruction ( by means of space wolf), but warrant their complete removal from Imperial records I mean even dark angels chose to remember half of their legion fell to chaos. But I digress I think this is an awesome part of the fluff, it is so mysterious, and I think could be the giant universe shaking event 40k could use.

 chazz huggins wrote:
I mean even dark angels chose to remember half of their legion fell to chaos.

To be fair, only their super secret inner circle remembers, it certainly isn't in imperial records.


I love the two missing legions. The intent was always to allow gamers to come up with their own legions without contradicting the main story.


I;ve seem some fantastic 2nd and 11th legions, so would say this was a success

The only real part I genuinely dislike about them is how illogical the other Primarch's and the big E is, considering.

I mean, 2 of their brother have already been lost and/or fallen traitor, one of them heavily hinted to have been destroyed for it, yet when there were rumours of Horus falling it was met with disbelief... Whilst considering past events, an angle of guilty till proven innocent makes far more sense, the Imperium isn't a democracy. It's just strange that at that point, there wasn't much paranoia at the rumours, it's inconsistent with the fluff.

Actually, there's another part I don't like about them, I don't like that there are two lost/traitor legions, one would suffice. I tend to think one was killed in battle, and it was shed under the carpet so to speak to not let rumours spread that the Primarch's weren't these invulnerable war machines the Imperium propaganda machine wanted them to think.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
The only real part I genuinely dislike about them is how illogical the other Primarch's and the big E is, considering.

I mean, 2 of their brother have already been lost and/or fallen traitor, one of them heavily hinted to have been destroyed for it, yet when there were rumours of Horus falling it was met with disbelief... Whilst considering past events, an angle of guilty till proven innocent makes far more sense, the Imperium isn't a democracy. It's just strange that at that point, there wasn't much paranoia at the rumours, it's inconsistent with the fluff.

Actually, there's another part I don't like about them, I don't like that there are two lost/traitor legions, one would suffice. I tend to think one was killed in battle, and it was shed under the carpet so to speak to not let rumours spread that the Primarch's weren't these invulnerable war machines the Imperium propaganda machine wanted them to think.

Horus was thought to be the least likely to betray the Emperor because he was the most senior Primarch, having spent good decades with the Emperor as the Big E's only rediscovered "son" and one of his closest companions. Most primarchs probably thought the bonds between the two were amongst the strongest amongst any between the Emperor and a Primarch. Horus also had a great track record and an infallible rep. Dorn thought of Horus as a man (Primarch) of the highest honor and refused to believe the news of his rebellion at first, simply because he, like everyone else, thought he could not have fallen.

The two missing Primarchs could have simply seen the wrong things the Emperor saw unfit for anyone but himself (and maybe Malcador), or maybe one of both legions suffered a form of mutation that became worse than what the XV Legion suffered before they reunited with Magnus. One of the missing Primarchs could have acted out worse than Angron and outright refused to join the Emperor, and was therefore destroyed. Also, "Guilty until proven innocent" wasn't that prominent back in 30K. Bringing the news of the most admired Primarch of all Imperium without strong proof is the equivalence of spitting at the Emperor to his face (citation not needed).

to add emphasis to Icmiracles post, if you read the short story The Wolf of Ash and Fire you will see just how much the Emperor means to Horus and how unlikely it must have seemed that he would ever fall.

40k story progression, bring one back as a loyalist and one back as a (non-deamon) traitor. That is my opinion.

Originally, the story was intended to facilitate the player creating one of the two lost legions themselves. Bu that fell by the wayside after the RT editions, and they have never reinstated the fluff. What doesn't make sense to me, is if half of the primarch fall traitor and rebel, what did the other two do that was o bad that they cant be spoken of. Horus literally destroyed everything the GC worked for and even laid the Emperor low after being responsible in one form or another for the deaths of no less than 2 primarchs, what could be worse than that?

maybe one supported pacifism and the other cultural integration of xenos?

 GKTiberius wrote:
Originally, the story was intended to facilitate the player creating one of the two lost legions themselves. Bu that fell by the wayside after the RT editions, and they have never reinstated the fluff. What doesn't make sense to me, is if half of the primarch fall traitor and rebel, what did the other two do that was o bad that they cant be spoken of. Horus literally destroyed everything the GC worked for and even laid the Emperor low after being responsible in one form or another for the deaths of no less than 2 primarchs, what could be worse than that?

That's what I'm talking about. Nothing could be worse than that, that's why their removal from the story is pointless

 Great White wrote:

 GKTiberius wrote:
Originally, the story was intended to facilitate the player creating one of the two lost legions themselves. Bu that fell by the wayside after the RT editions, and they have never reinstated the fluff. What doesn't make sense to me, is if half of the primarch fall traitor and rebel, what did the other two do that was o bad that they cant be spoken of. Horus literally destroyed everything the GC worked for and even laid the Emperor low after being responsible in one form or another for the deaths of no less than 2 primarchs, what could be worse than that?

That's what I'm talking about. Nothing could be worse than that, that's why their removal from the story is pointless

Their removal was done because the Emperor was still up and about. Had the Emperor not been interred on the Golden Throne, Horus and the other traitor legions would have been wiped from the records as well I'm sure.

Don't forget the Imperial Truth is in fact a complete lie. There is gods, supernatural beings and things like magic, there is gentle and pacifist Xenos, it's possible to live in peace even with some of the less candide ones (Eldar for exemple) and it's not mankind destiny to rule the stars unupposed. Anything that threaten the image of the Imperial Truth or more importantly it's leaders is to be destroyed and hidden away. How do you think the Great Crusade would have worked if the deeds of those two Primarchs were known. If they could be traitors to the cause. Remembrencers were surprised when they discovered that Space Marines and their Primarchs were petty individuals filled with their own brand of selfish desires, hubris and jealousy. Yet it was hidding in plain sight the whole time.

These two Primarchs serves a double role. They allow players to design their own Legion and descendant Chapter and allow those interested in the Horus Heresy and 30K era to see how filled with lies and dogma the world was even back then. The sugar coating was just a bit thicker and sweeter.

In old fluff, The original Ultramarines were one of the Two -with the chapter now going by that name merely having been been given all of their Gak after the former had been banished.

Are you sure about that?

From what I understand, it's an intentional unfulfilled part of fluff from the earliest iterations of Warhammer 40k, back when the company actively encouraged fans to make their own headcanon and own chapters and such. Leaving two legions unknown meant players had a way to easily claim their personal chapter and it's fluff fit into the game universe.

 chazz huggins wrote:
this aspect of 40k always fascinated me that even before the Heresy, what could two entire legions do that not only warrant their destruction ( by means of space wolf), but warrant their complete removal from Imperial records ...

My take was that their destruction was the entire reason that they were removed from records. Little point in wiping out all reference to them if they're still out there and likely to pop back up at some point.


The fluff originally suggested that they fought in the early stages of the Heresy, probably on Horus's side. Which led to the idea that they were traitors who were completely wiped out by loyalist forces, and were subsequently wiped from imperial records as the final layer of 'punishment' for their misdeeds. They weren't just wiped out... they were erased from existence.

The Horus Heresy novels have retconned that, by having them already gone by the time the Heresy began. One is hinted as being wiped out by the Space Wolves, probably for mutation... so the basic premise changes to a likelihood of them being Legions whose geneseed failed, and so they were eliminated from imperial records to avoid any sign of weakness. The Blood Angels faced the same potential future, as, most likely, would the Thousand Sons have done, but then the Heresy happened.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
The intent was always to allow gamers to come up with their own legions without contradicting the main story.

Except the moment you come up with one of those Legions, you contradict the main story.

There was never any reference from GW that the missing Legions were there to be filled in by fans. The closest I've ever seen to an official statement to that effect was an comment from Dan Abnett in an interview.

 Great White wrote:
I mean I know it seems like another thread about these two, but just hear me out. It's not to talk about what you think happened to them, I mean you can if you want, but it's not what it's here for. My question is do you think that this is a good piece of fluff? That they're missing. Personally I dislike it and wish it wouldn't be so. Would you rather they never be missing and be part of the story? Thoughts?

It was always a great part of the fluff until the Heresy novels came out and muddled them up by introducing all these characters that know what happened but constantly dance around talking about it.

But, the again, the Heresy novels are their own problem entirely.

Okay, I know no matter what, I'd continue with this wish over and over again and over, but I wish I knew just a bit more about them.

I've read cheesy "Missing 2" fluffs that made up chapters for them. But I wish we at least knew what their legions were like before purging.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
maybe one supported pacifism and the other cultural integration of xenos?

That was my idea also
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/452050.page#4330268

The idea of the 2 lost legion is great for those that create their own fluff,but still i want to know the truth!

Didn't Horus support Xenos integration? Or at least peace with them in horus heresy. At least until (eidolan?) Messed it up by stealing stuff

 Pyeatt wrote:
Didn't Horus support Xenos integration? Or at least peace with them in horus heresy. At least until (eidolan?) Messed it up by stealing stuff

Not really no..

the stealing issue was with non imperial humans, (who did integrate with xenos). Horus supported keeping the humans intact, and purging the xenos, whereas abaddon wanted to crush the whole lot.

And it was Erebus who nicked stuff.

Sorry, been 3 years since I'd read it. Thanks for corrections

2BlackJack1 wrote:
I think that it'd be nice if they were reincorperated into the story, and they would try to fix the IoM, but since no one knows about them, they have a really hard time about it. Or they make a new human faction that follows the Imperial Truth. In reality, I think they are just there to help show that information was lost during Heresy.

It's probably an accounting error.

New headcannon: They are real, and still fighting.

But they would probably be even more Mary-sue than Ultramarines...

It wouldn't be terribly difficult for a BL writer to bring them back. It would take all of a minute's consideration before they decided to have them return from outside the galaxy or emerge from their sub-terran vault.

Here's a better question for you: Do we have the writing talent in BL to make this fluff happen without it coming off as a complete disappointment?

If I were to write it I would probably approach it from this perspective (please keep in mind I gave this about a minute and half’s thought, so please be kind):

A small cluster of planets on the galactic north west, past the eye of terror to the galactic rim, are ruled by the descendants of the second legion. They chapter support staff and ancillary personnel formed the breeding population of humans. The limited number of gene seed only allows the civilizations leaders, military officers, and elite military personnel (about the strength of a space marine chapter) to be true astartes. All people enter the military at 16 and are tracked people based on aptitudes and disposition. The most fit become Astartes, and the civilian government is headed by an astartes, but is advised by a council of non astartes in civil matters and of astartes in military matters. The astartes can choose to be assigned to a civilian government duty after fifty years of service, usually law enforcement or appointed to a job overseeing human bureaucrats.

They have set up a very culturally and technologically advanced civilization that could be similar to tau in scope and technological development. They stay hidden due to remote location and DAOT cloaking tech that hides their ships and planets from long range detection. They have developed lore about the dangers outside of their planet system and how they are basically the only humans left. The average people are kept in the dark and its very dystopian, a functioning and productive dystopia that doesn’t really suck to live in, but a dystopia none the less.
The book would be about a rogue trader that finds them, his interactions with them.

The main conflict of the book would culminate in a strike force of Marines, maybe the Minotaurs, show up looking for the rogue trader, and they fight the inhabitants. The fighting sees the Minotaurs defeated and the survivors are summarily executed. The rogue trader is arrested and at the end escapes the system. As he leaves the system and jumps into the warp, his Gellar field fails, as it has been sabotaged before he leave, and the last scene is of the rogue trader vessel being overrun by daemons.

 Shidank wrote:
It wouldn't be terribly difficult for a BL writer to bring them back. It would take all of a minute's consideration before they decided to have them return from outside the galaxy or emerge from their sub-terran vault.

Here's a better question for you: Do we have the writing talent in BL to make this fluff happen without it coming off as a complete disappointment?

So what you're saying is that it would be terribly difficult.


The reality is that the novels have made the Missing Legions even more missing. They're out of the story so early in the Great Crusade, to bring them back is effectively pointless. And they're definitely gone-gone, not just "left to go somewhere" gone.