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 Orock wrote:
Because you can't change the flight mode more than once per turn. .

Provide a rule to back that up? All I see is you declare it in the movement phase and its fixed until the start of its next turn.

 Orock wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
To OP - thanks for letting us know and put a rest to this one once and for all.

But it dosen't. Because you can't change the flight mode more than once per turn. Since you come in on the turn, you are stuck on that flight mode.

Im glad for OP that he has his own idea how it works, and wont let no man tell him what to do, but "some guize at GW said it was totally cool" is not an official FAQ, nor how the rules work in the book. MY local GW told me that meganobz could run, because although it says slow and purposeful in the wargear section, it does not under their unit entry. And that although it says right under gifts of gork and mork no character can have more than one, under the big open chart that dosent have a restriction. Know what these things have in common? They are both GW employees taking the most positive look at a potential sale in order to get it, as well as keep the community happy. Try using your houserule at a tournament. See how many people laugh, then call over a judge and overrule you.

Under FMC Deployment it says when it arrives it counts as swooping - so go ahead, shoot it with interceptor.

The controlling player then deploys it onto the table counting as a "move".

Under FMC Changing Flight Mode it says "At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until
the start of its next turn."

So, the controlling player chooses Gliding, it is now gliding until the end of its next turn.

You can't use the deployment rule to claim swooping lasts until the end of the turn because that statement is in the Changing Flight Mode rules, where it clearly states "must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until
the start of its next turn" in one sentence, you can't take half the sentence and apply it to a rule in a different section.

You do realize interceptor is at the end of the movement phase right? So if you changed to glide then it gets interceptored while its gliding.

First of all, chaosmarauder, we just want to make sure that you realize that just because a GW rep said it, doesn't mean that's the actual answer.

THAT SAID...

This is a rule that's been up for debate! It is somewhat ambiguous. We won't know for sure what GW's intentions are until they publish a new rule book or an FAQ. It seems like the intention is that they have to be Swooping, since why else state that they enter play swooping if they give you the option? Wouldn't they say then that they can enter play Swooping or Gliding?

However, I think someone with a book could maybe look this up. If a model "can't move" does that mean it can't be selected to move (even if that move is 0") during the movement phase? If we skip the model selection for movement, then the model never gets an "at the start of its move", and you'll never get to change whether it's Swooping or Gliding.

 CrownAxe wrote:
You do realize interceptor is at the end of the movement phase right? So if you changed to glide then it gets interceptored while its gliding.

Yes you're right, in some cases you might not want to change to gliding mode in case of interceptor.

 chaosmarauder wrote:
You can't use the deployment rule to claim swooping lasts until the end of the turn because that statement is in the Changing Flight Mode rules, where it clearly states "must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn" in one sentence, you can't take half the sentence and apply it to a rule in a different section.

Correct.

However, the actual rules require you changing flight modes before your model's move - meaning before the Deep Strike. Since, as you agreed, the Deep Strike sets it to Swooping you have no opportunity to change the flight mode afterward (unless you run and I don't care enough to look that up).

 chaosmarauder wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
From Tenets of You Make da Call:

2. The only official sources of information are the current rulebooks and the Games Workshop FAQs. Emails from Games Workshop are easily spoofed and are notorious for being inconsistent and so should not be relied on.

I know that not everyone will believe me, you will have to go into a store for yourself - but they will tell you the same thing.

My local GW store ruled it the exact opposite (ie how its actually written in the rules)


so no go on breaking the rules with any legitimacy just because your particular store encourages its own house rules.


RAW is it arrives in swoop mode, and cannot change that turn, then the next turn, it can change to glide, but still cannot charge.

 easysauce wrote:

 chaosmarauder wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
From Tenets of You Make da Call:

2. The only official sources of information are the current rulebooks and the Games Workshop FAQs. Emails from Games Workshop are easily spoofed and are notorious for being inconsistent and so should not be relied on.

I know that not everyone will believe me, you will have to go into a store for yourself - but they will tell you the same thing.

My local GW store ruled it the exact opposite (ie how its actually written in the rules)


so no go on breaking the rules with any legitimacy just because your particular store encourages its own house rules.


RAW is it arrives in swoop mode, and cannot change that turn, then the next turn, it can change to glide, but still cannot charge.

raw , Reallly. Because the actual rule, says that FMCs arriving by Deep Strike Reserve have to swoop.. Blood tithe isn't reserves... so.. oops that's not RAW, that an interpretation of the rules by a player. Which is just what the OP has done.

Neither is right or wrong, they are valid interpretations of unclear rules. Until an FAQ is released, house rules will have to suffice.

 Yarium wrote:
First of all, chaosmarauder, we just want to make sure that you realize that just because a GW rep said it, doesn't mean that's the actual answer.

THAT SAID...

This is a rule that's been up for debate! It is somewhat ambiguous. We won't know for sure what GW's intentions are until they publish a new rule book or an FAQ. It seems like the intention is that they have to be Swooping, since why else state that they enter play swooping if they give you the option? Wouldn't they say then that they can enter play Swooping or Gliding?

However, I think someone with a book could maybe look this up. If a model "can't move" does that mean it can't be selected to move (even if that move is 0") during the movement phase? If we skip the model selection for movement, then the model never gets an "at the start of its move", and you'll never get to change whether it's Swooping or Gliding.

Hmm, reading the rule under Turn Summary it says

1. The start of your turn. Resolve any rule described as happening at the start of your turn.

2. Movement phase. Here, you move any of your units that are capable of doing so. See the
movement rules for more details of how to do this.

Then under Reserves in Arriving from Reserve it says that Arriving happens at the start of the turn, and then several times mentions that when they arrive you "deploy it, moving it onto the table"

Then under Arriving by Deep Strike - "In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further"

Then under FMC Deployment it says - "If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode."

Then under Changing Flight Modes it says - "At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn."

So RAW says if you combine it all:

A FMC arrives by deepstrike, is deployed and moved onto the table, counting as swooping mode, and must declare weather it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A longer RAW version reads like this:

The unit arrives from deep strike reserve in swooping mode, deploy it, moving it onto the table - before making the move a FMC must declare weather it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn.

My local GW owner thinks that you can't take a CAD with one faction, and another CAD with a different faction (Eldar and Marines, for example). He interprets the restriction of "All units chosen must have the same faction (or no faction)." to be for all CADs, not just within that one CAD.

Does that mean it's an official ruling and we should all play that way? Of course not.

The difference between my example and what you're saying is that one is debated, I understand that. I'm just making a point.
Sorry if it seems like I'm being a dick of sorts, that's not the intended tone.

 chaosmarauder wrote:
The unit arrives from deep strike reserve in swooping mode, deploy it, moving it onto the table - before making the move a FMC must declare weather it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn.

Thanks for quoting the rules!

By your own statement, the model starts its move from "off the table", but it had to choose at that moment. Since it couldn't, the rules stated what mode it was in when it enters.


However, if you're saying that you choose the mode after it's "moved" onto the table, then your quoted rules also state;

"Movement phase. here, you move any of your units that are capable of doing so."

Hence, if a unit is not capable of being moved, it is not selected to move, and you would not have the chance to change it's flight mode.


Sorry to say, but your GW rep is quite wrong.

 chaosmarauder wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
First of all, chaosmarauder, we just want to make sure that you realize that just because a GW rep said it, doesn't mean that's the actual answer.

THAT SAID...

This is a rule that's been up for debate! It is somewhat ambiguous. We won't know for sure what GW's intentions are until they publish a new rule book or an FAQ. It seems like the intention is that they have to be Swooping, since why else state that they enter play swooping if they give you the option? Wouldn't they say then that they can enter play Swooping or Gliding?

However, I think someone with a book could maybe look this up. If a model "can't move" does that mean it can't be selected to move (even if that move is 0") during the movement phase? If we skip the model selection for movement, then the model never gets an "at the start of its move", and you'll never get to change whether it's Swooping or Gliding.

Hmm, reading the rule under Turn Summary it says

1. The start of your turn. Resolve any rule described as happening at the start of your turn.

2. Movement phase. Here, you move any of your units that are capable of doing so. See the
movement rules for more details of how to do this.

Then under Reserves in Arriving from Reserve it says that Arriving happens at the start of the turn, and then several times mentions that when they arrive you "deploy it, moving it onto the table"

Then under Arriving by Deep Strike - "In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further"

Then under FMC Deployment it says - "If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode."

Then under Changing Flight Modes it says - "At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn."

So RAW says if you combine it all:

A FMC arrives by deepstrike, is deployed and moved onto the table, counting as swooping mode, and must declare weather it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A longer RAW version reads like this:

The unit arrives from deep strike reserve in swooping mode, deploy it, moving it onto the table - before making the move a FMC must declare weather it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn.

Chaosmarauder, I essentially agree with you here but I think the hang up is between Arriving from Deepstrike "May not move any further" and Changing Flight Modes "at the start of its move." If "move" is being used in the same sense in both phrases, it seems like the model cannot change flight modes as it doesn't get to "move." If it is being used in a more general sense in the "changing flight modes" rule (which I think it is) then nothing is preventing it from changing from swoop to glide in the turn it arrives. Really wish GW would address gak like this. Somebody working in their rules Dept. Has surely seen this issue on the various boards. A five minute update would certainly fix the problem and the community could start acting like a community again and not get into these squabbles.

 Yarium wrote:

 chaosmarauder wrote:
The unit arrives from deep strike reserve in swooping mode, deploy it, moving it onto the table - before making the move a FMC must declare weather it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn.

Thanks for quoting the rules!

By your own statement, the model starts its move from "off the table", but it had to choose at that moment. Since it couldn't, the rules stated what mode it was in when it enters.


However, if you're saying that you choose the mode after it's "moved" onto the table, then your quoted rules also state;

"Movement phase. here, you move any of your units that are capable of doing so."

Hence, if a unit is not capable of being moved, it is not selected to move, and you would not have the chance to change it's flight mode.


Sorry to say, but your GW rep is quite wrong.

I would say that it definitely moves once (when it is deployed) and only that once.

When it arrives it counts as being in swooping mode. (There is nothing here that connects it to the changing rule that says it lasts till the start of the next turn)

But since it is also the start of its move the player must declare weather it is swooping or gliding till the start of the next turn. (Triggered by the changing rule)

So you simply get "it arrives in swooping mode and then declare if its swooping or gliding till the start of the next turn"

If it moves once, when it is deployed, then the option to change modes would be just before you deploy it, since that deployment is the movement. It is then auto-set to Swooping, due to the rules.


Your own statement rewrites itself. You're stating that it moves just once, when deployed, but then you get to choose - even though that is exactly NOT what the rules say to do (they say you choose before you move).

I'm done arguing in circles. I'm good at seeing both sides, but if your argument is just to ignore the rules that you yourself have posted, then it's a lost cause.

 Yarium wrote:
If it moves once, when it is deployed, then the option to change modes would be just before you deploy it, since that deployment is the movement. It is then auto-set to Swooping, due to the rules.


Your own statement rewrites itself. You're stating that it moves just once, when deployed, but then you get to choose - even though that is exactly NOT what the rules say to do (they say you choose before you move).

I'm done arguing in circles. I'm good at seeing both sides, but if your argument is just to ignore the rules that you yourself have posted, then it's a lost cause.

You're assuming if it arrives in swooping then its stuck like that till the next turn, but it doesn't say that in deployment.

The only rule that says until the next turn is under the Changing Flight Mode which in the same sentence says you are given the choice of which mode.

So actually the 'arrive as swooping' rule contradicts the 'before you move choose what state to last till next turn' rule.

They could have simply said 'arrive as swooping, this lasts until the next turn' OR 'before you move choose what state to last till the next turn, unless the unit arrived by deep strike' but they didn't...

Can we atleast agree there is a contradiction here? At the heart of all the debates, I think this is what needs clarification.

I actually see both sides of the argument, and if you are really into RAW then you should see it too, but rules as intended - definitely don't think they meant the BT to have to wait 2 turns to assault.

From ‘Deployment’ in the rules for Flying Monstrous Creatures:

If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.

From ‘Deep Strike’:

In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further…

From ‘Changing Flight Mode’ in the rules for Flying Monstrous Creatures:

At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of the next turn.

The first passage sets the model in Swooping mode, while the second quote prevents you from moving further which therefore prevents you from changing your Flight Mode. This is because as we see in the third quote you would do so “… at the start of its move…” and by having arrived from Deep Strike it doesn’t have a move to start.

 Ghaz wrote:
From ‘Deployment’ in the rules for Flying Monstrous Creatures:

If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.

From ‘Deep Strike’:

In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further…

From ‘Changing Flight Mode’ in the rules for Flying Monstrous Creatures:

At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of the next turn.

The first passage sets the model in Swooping mode, while the second quote prevents you from moving further which therefore prevents you from changing your Flight Mode. This is because as we see in the third quote you would do so “… at the start of its move…” and by having arrived from Deep Strike it doesn’t have a move to start.

Actually, you have the order wrong:

The unit deep strikes, causing it to be deployed and moved onto the table

This triggers the third passage

At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of the next turn.

So, it declares it is Gliding until the start of its next turn.

Then your first passage occurs

If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.

And therefor it is in a state where it will be gliding until the start of the next turn, but always counts as being in swooping mode.

And also there you have it, it is gliding but if you intercept it even if it changed to gliding mode it still counts as being in swooping mode.

No, because even if the Deep Striking is its movement the first passage overrides the third. 'Must' takes precedence over 'may'.

 chaosmarauder wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
From ‘Deployment’ in the rules for Flying Monstrous Creatures:

If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.

From ‘Deep Strike’:

In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further…

From ‘Changing Flight Mode’ in the rules for Flying Monstrous Creatures:

At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of the next turn.

The first passage sets the model in Swooping mode, while the second quote prevents you from moving further which therefore prevents you from changing your Flight Mode. This is because as we see in the third quote you would do so “… at the start of its move…” and by having arrived from Deep Strike it doesn’t have a move to start.

Actually, you have the order wrong:

The unit deep strikes, causing it to be deployed and moved onto the table

This triggers the third passage

At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of the next turn.

No, it doesn't. A Deep Strike is a move. You must declare prior to your move what your mode is.
Please cite a rule allowing you to declare a flight mode after you move. Or during a move.

rigeld2 wrote:
No, it doesn't. A Deep Strike is a move. You must declare prior to your move what your mode is.
Please cite a rule allowing you to declare a flight mode after you move. Or during a move.

Not sure what you were saying 'no it doesn't' to.

Deep striking is a move, noone is arguing that.

Here is your passage which indicates what MUST be done at the start of that move.

Flying Monstrous Creatures - Flight Modes - Changing Flight Mode:

At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I see, you thought it was 'prior' when the rule actually states 'at the start'


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The 'counts as swooping mode' would only need to be explained in a case where gliding was declared, and the only thing I can think of is interceptor would be 6 to hit even if the chosen state was gliding.

 chaosmarauder wrote:
I see, you thought it was 'prior' when the rule actually states 'at the start'

In this case those are synonymous. You have no permission to choose during a Deep Strike - indeed, when it begins resolving the model isn't even there. So please, where "at the start" of a Deep Strike do you have permission?

rigeld2 wrote:

 chaosmarauder wrote:
I see, you thought it was 'prior' when the rule actually states 'at the start'

In this case those are synonymous. You have no permission to choose during a Deep Strike - indeed, when it begins resolving the model isn't even there. So please, where "at the start" of a Deep Strike do you have permission?

Some units must
arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.

Therefor, the model that isn't even there is actually in Reserves

Then under deep strike - arriving by deep strike:

In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further

If it may not 'move any further' then it would have had to 'move' to not be able to do it more - so Deep Striking onto the table is a 'move'

But additionally to back this up, in the Reserves section under Arriving from Reserve:

When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table

Also indicating that since deep striking is always from reserves then deploying it means moving it onto the table.

So at the start of its move, you declare it is gliding. But it counts as swooping so that if interceptor is used the weapon will be 6 to hit it.

 chaosmarauder wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 chaosmarauder wrote:
I see, you thought it was 'prior' when the rule actually states 'at the start'

In this case those are synonymous. You have no permission to choose during a Deep Strike - indeed, when it begins resolving the model isn't even there. So please, where "at the start" of a Deep Strike do you have permission?

Some units must
arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.

Therefor, the model that isn't even there is actually in Reserves

So you're saying that Blood Thithe'd Bloodthirsters are in Reserve? I want to make sure I'm understanding you.
Also, units in Reserve are demonstrably not in play, so any attempt to do things with a unit that is out of play will require rules support.

If it may not 'move any further' then it would have had to 'move' to not be able to do it more - so Deep Striking onto the table is a 'move'

Agreed... relevance?

So at the start of its move, you declare it is gliding. But it counts as swooping so that if interceptor is used the weapon will be 6 to hit it.

Incorrect - you have literally zero permission to declare a movement mode while the model is out of play (which is at the start of the Deep Strike).
Please don't make up rules.

So at the start of its move, you declare it is gliding. But it counts as swooping so that if interceptor is used the weapon will be 6 to hit it.

Sure! Bear in mind, it also counts as swooping for the purposes of moving next turn. So ultimately the declaration did literally nothing, as it's still counted as swooping for ALL intents and purposes, unless otherwise specified

You are literally rewriting the rule.
The rule "counts as swooping"
Your rule "counts as swooping for the purpose of interceptor attacks"

The second one is a new rule unsupported RAW,
RAI i dont care, houserule whatever way you want. RAW is all that matters here.

rigeld2 wrote:

 chaosmarauder wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 chaosmarauder wrote:
I see, you thought it was 'prior' when the rule actually states 'at the start'

In this case those are synonymous. You have no permission to choose during a Deep Strike - indeed, when it begins resolving the model isn't even there. So please, where "at the start" of a Deep Strike do you have permission?

Some units must
arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.

Therefor, the model that isn't even there is actually in Reserves

So you're saying that Blood Thithe'd Bloodthirsters are in Reserve? I want to make sure I'm understanding you.
Also, units in Reserve are demonstrably not in play, so any attempt to do things with a unit that is out of play will require rules support.

If it may not 'move any further' then it would have had to 'move' to not be able to do it more - so Deep Striking onto the table is a 'move'

Agreed... relevance?

So at the start of its move, you declare it is gliding. But it counts as swooping so that if interceptor is used the weapon will be 6 to hit it.

Incorrect - you have literally zero permission to declare a movement mode while the model is out of play (which is at the start of the Deep Strike).
Please don't make up rules.

You make an interesting argument, unfortunately I have to go home and its a bit of a drive probobly won't reply till tomorrow.

However, with your line of thinking it should count as being in swooping mode when it arrives, and then when it makes its run in the shooting phase it can change its flight mode which it keeps until the start of the next turn.

Arriving in swooping mode does not specify 'till the start of its next turn', because that is only written in the Changing Flight Mode rule, not in the FMC deployment rule.

Clearly the RAW is full of holes here. The biggest being that nothing summoned from the blood tithe begins the game in reserves and we are told to deploy them all using the deep strike rule. The deep strike rule only allows unit that begin he game in reserve to be deployed. I.E tithe summoned units cannot be deployed. Another would be that FMC cannot change flight modes, like ever. A flight mode lasts until the start of the next turn. That means from the start of the turn until the FMC moves it is not in a flight mode. That means when you declare a flight mode, regardless of what it was last turn, its not a 'change' this turn.

Clearly not the RAI, so we make adjustments. I personally believe the intent was never to stop a FMC that deep strikes on turn 2 from being able to charge on turn 3.

If only the developers were more accountable it would go a long ways towards how they tend to write rules.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
If only the developers were more accountable it would go a long ways towards how they tend to write rules.

Or if they at least update their FAQ at a reasonable rate. I wonder if instead of arguing a rules point that clearly cannot be answered until updated, we would just all start asking GW directly it would get them to answer in an FAQ more quickly?

For those arguing that because the FMC cannot move in the movement phase, and thus doesn't get a 'move' to have a 'start of its move'....

Do similar restrictions apply to other models that are unable to move? Ie, if a model has a 'at the start of its move, the model may do X' ability but is locked in close combat: does that ability cease to be usable? Similarly for immobilized vehicles - do they lose access to 'at the start of its move' abilities?
Just for consistency.

(Note: I'm on the side of the Bloodthirster NOT being able to change modes as it lands; and I don't know off-hand of any abilities of this sort - I have a few ideas but without books I'm not sure whether they are 'movement phase' or 'move' abilities.)

Do similar restrictions apply to other models that are unable to move? Ie, if a model has a 'at the start of its move, the model may do X' ability but is locked in close combat: does that ability cease to be usable? Similarly for immobilized vehicles - do they lose access to 'at the start of its move' abilities?
Just for consistency.

Yes, to use a "start of your move ability" , you must start a move, If you cant make a move, you can't start one, eg. immobilised vehicles/locked in combat.
It's why some abilites are "in the movement phase" , no restriction, or "start of move" , restricted.