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harkequin wrote:

Do similar restrictions apply to other models that are unable to move? Ie, if a model has a 'at the start of its move, the model may do X' ability but is locked in close combat: does that ability cease to be usable? Similarly for immobilized vehicles - do they lose access to 'at the start of its move' abilities?
Just for consistency.

Yes, to use a "start of your move ability" , you must start a move, If you cant make a move, you can't start one, eg. immobilised vehicles/locked in combat.
It's why some abilites are "in the movement phase" , no restriction, or "start of move" , restricted.

Technically, start of move could mean:

-moving in from reserves
-moving in the movement phase
-moving when you run
-moving when you fallback
-moving when you consolidate


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There is nowhere specific in the rules that state 'start of move' means only the move mentioned in the movement phase, otherwise it would say 'start of movement phase'.


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Also, deep striking is a move:

Deep Strike (also called deep strike reserves) follows the rules for reserves.

Under "Arriving from Reserve"

First it says to roll a D6 for each unit in you army being held in Reserve.

Then in paragraph 4:

When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described
below."

Meaning that deploying from reserves onto the table, "deploy it, moving it" counts as moving it. Then it goes on to say you must roll for all Reserves before other units can move. This does not differentiate between reserves and deep strike reserves here.

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Do i have to then move? Can i swap flight modes and not move?

Sure - you always have the option to move zero inches (unless swooping).
But if you're not allowed to move, how can you then do something that requires being able to move?

Because no where in the rulebook it says that you must be able to move to do so.

It just says that you must declare at the start of the movement phase, not in any way that you must be able to move.

And before any one says anything about it, its not because you can't move in the movement phase that you ignore the movement phase or that the said unit doesn't exist during the movement phase or that it gets magically teleported out of the movement phase, it just means that you can't move.

The switching between gliding and swooping happens at the start of the movement phase, it doesn't require that you move or are able to move.

Also this apply for all FMC's, not only Blood tithe ones.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
It just says that you must declare at the start of the movement phase...

No, it doesn't. It says that at the start of the models move; not the movement phase. How do you declare something at the start of an action that can't be taken?

Because no where in the rulebook it says that you must be able to move to do so.

It just says that you must declare at the start of the movement phase, not in any way that you must be able to move.

Not movement phase. At the start of a models move. You can't start a move you never make.

Yeah its pretty clear that if you can't move, you can't start your move..

 chaosmarauder wrote:

harkequin wrote:

Do similar restrictions apply to other models that are unable to move? Ie, if a model has a 'at the start of its move, the model may do X' ability but is locked in close combat: does that ability cease to be usable? Similarly for immobilized vehicles - do they lose access to 'at the start of its move' abilities?
Just for consistency.

Yes, to use a "start of your move ability" , you must start a move, If you cant make a move, you can't start one, eg. immobilised vehicles/locked in combat.
It's why some abilites are "in the movement phase" , no restriction, or "start of move" , restricted.

Technically, start of move could mean:

-moving in from reserves
-moving in the movement phase
-moving when you run
-moving when you fallback
-moving when you consolidate


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There is nowhere specific in the rules that state 'start of move' means only the move mentioned in the movement phase, otherwise it would say 'start of movement phase'.


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Also, deep striking is a move:

Deep Strike (also called deep strike reserves) follows the rules for reserves.

Under "Arriving from Reserve"

First it says to roll a D6 for each unit in you army being held in Reserve.

Then in paragraph 4:

When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described
below."

Meaning that deploying from reserves onto the table, "deploy it, moving it" counts as moving it. Then it goes on to say you must roll for all Reserves before other units can move. This does not differentiate between reserves and deep strike reserves here.

#1 - Even if it could change flight mode by these alternate forms of movement, those alternate forms of movement require that you be in a specific mode to accomplish. If you were Swooping, then wanted to "run" or "go flat out" or whatever the flying equivalent is for a FMC, then you'd have to follow the rules for the movement based on the mode you were in before you even started the move. A Swooping FMC doesn't actually "run" in the normal sense, and it's not able to perform a "run" move unless it's Gliding, which it isn't in, so when it goes to move, if you tried to change your flight mode, you'd be unable to perform the declared action, and it would be an illegal action, and so you wouldn't be able to do it.

(note; if you COULD change flight modes with any kind of movement, I could change to Gliding with my Flyrant, do a 180° pivot, then run in my shooting phase and change back to Swooping)

#2 - If moving onto the table from reserves counts as moving, and deep strike counts as moving, then you would declare your flight mode before it's on the table. After that point, you'd deploy it with the deep strike rules, and at that point it's flight mode would be set to Swooping. You can no longer select the model to move it again during the movement phase, so it won't be possible to change it's flight mode again this turn. If you cut out the "deep striking is moving" part of the rules, that second and third sentence remains.

I really don't follow.

it is far easier to say:

#1 there is no rule specifically applicable to the blood tithe that forces the FMC to arrive swooping

#2 there is no rule specifically applicable to the blood tithe that prevents a units movement the turn it arrives.

Pick one, or both, you can make an argument. This change flight mode without moving thing makes no sense by RAW.

 chaosmarauder wrote:
Technically, start of move could mean:

-moving in from reserves
-moving in the movement phase
-moving when you run
-moving when you fallback
-moving when you consolidate

Automatically Appended Next Post:
There is nowhere specific in the rules that state 'start of move' means only the move mentioned in the movement phase, otherwise it would say 'start of movement phase'.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, deep striking is a move:

Deep Strike (also called deep strike reserves) follows the rules for reserves.

Under "Arriving from Reserve"

First it says to roll a D6 for each unit in you army being held in Reserve.

Then in paragraph 4:

When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below."

Meaning that deploying from reserves onto the table, "deploy it, moving it" counts as moving it. Then it goes on to say you must roll for all Reserves before other units can move. This does not differentiate between reserves and deep strike reserves here.

There's a difference between simply arriving from reserves (in which the model does move, such as outflanking) and arriving via deepstrike. When a model arrives from deep strike, it isn't allowed to move.

In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.

Note that the rule says arrive, and not move onto the table. They may not perform any movements from where they arrived.

If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.

The turn that it arrives, it is in swooping mode. Note that there is no movement after it arrives.

At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn.

Since the model needs to perform some form of movement to change, it isn't allowed to swap the turn it arrives. You need to declare that the model is changing modes before it moves. Meaning even if we count deep striking as a form of movement, said movement happens before the model arrives, not after, and you can't change modes before you arrive on the table, because the rules say it arrives in swooping mode. No movement after it arrives means it can't change modes before it moves.

Last but not least, to the OP, we can't listen to GW employees. I spoke with several representatives from GW stores, and I got two different answers regarding whether psychic shriek rolls to hit.

Do these things have any bearing:

I can declare that I am running a unit, and then move nothing.
I can declare that I am turbo-boosting a unit, and then move nothing.
I can declare that I am going flat-out with a unit, and then not move it.

A couple of pages back in this thread, there was an argument against switching flight modes because the model is prohibited from moving at all.

With regard to the order of operations, things labeled as occurring at the 'start' of a phase happen before anything else in that phase, correct? An individual model's movement isn't a phase, but unless we're going to define 'start' differently, it would mean (in the case of switching flight modes before movement) that it happens 'before'. The reason this might be relevant is that switching flight modes does not have a check built into it, you simply get to declare it. There IS a check built into the actual movement of the model, which is: 'Is this model prohibited from moving?' So...just because a model can't move doesn't prohibit it from switching flight modes, since switching flight modes happens before movement (and is therefore not contingent on whether or not the model has permission to move or not).

DCannon4Life wrote:
Do these things have any bearing:

I can declare that I am running a unit, and then move nothing.
I can declare that I am turbo-boosting a unit, and then move nothing.
I can declare that I am going flat-out with a unit, and then not move it.

A couple of pages back in this thread, there was an argument against switching flight modes because the model is prohibited from moving at all.

With regard to the order of operations, things labeled as occurring at the 'start' of a phase happen before anything else in that phase, correct? An individual model's movement isn't a phase, but unless we're going to define 'start' differently, it would mean (in the case of switching flight modes before movement) that it happens 'before'. The reason this might be relevant is that switching flight modes does not have a check built into it, you simply get to declare it. There IS a check built into the actual movement of the model, which is: 'Is this model prohibited from moving?' So...just because a model can't move doesn't prohibit it from switching flight modes, since switching flight modes happens before movement (and is therefore not contingent on whether or not the model has permission to move or not).

DCannon - it doesn't say at the start of the movement phase, it says at the start of the model's move. So, no, you don't just get to declare it. You have to be able to select the model as moving in order to switch. This seems to be a common misconception.

I agree that a model's 'move' is not equivalent to the 'movement phase'. I'm interested in whether or not the use of the word 'start', which (I think) has been clearly and consistently defined with regard to how it applies to a phase, actually means that the decision to switch flight modes happens before the actual movement (which is when you check to see if a model can move, isn't it?).

edited for punctuation, which is still likely wrong

DCannon4Life wrote:
I agree that a model's 'move' is not equivalent to the 'movement phase'. I'm interested in whether or not the use of the word 'start', which (I think) has been clearly and consistently defined with regard to how it applies to a phase, actually means that the decision to switch flight modes happens before the actual movement (which is when you check to see if a model can move, isn't it?).

edited for punctuation, which is still likely wrong

I can see that argument, but think it's wrong. I don't think you can start a movement without selecting the model to move, and if you can't select it in the first place, then you're starting some other model's movement instead. The game doesn't tell you to select a unit and then check to see if it can move, it tells you to select a unit that can move. Still, I think we've all beaten this dead horse enough.

DCannon4Life wrote:
I agree that a model's 'move' is not equivalent to the 'movement phase'. I'm interested in whether or not the use of the word 'start', which (I think) has been clearly and consistently defined with regard to how it applies to a phase, actually means that the decision to switch flight modes happens before the actual movement (which is when you check to see if a model can move, isn't it?).

edited for punctuation, which is still likely wrong

I don't know, I'd personally say the order should be 1)Can the model move? 2)perform actions that happen before the model moves 3)choose whether or not you move.

I can't think of any specific examples of it, but if a rule says "before a model assaults a unit, do this" doesn't mean you can do it at the start of the assault phase, you specifically need to be able to declare an assault if you want to use the ability.

And then, since the model is in no way capable of performing any form of movement, it can't do anything that requires the stipulation "before it moves". Also, as someone pointed out earlier, it's generally accepted that a model can't change modes for every form of movement. Otherwise, you'd have models that after winning a combat and consolidating they could enter swooping mode, or a model could switch to gliding, move and turn 180, then declare it's running and go back into the air, two scenarios most people would not accept.

My biggest problems with the RAW I think is

In FMC deployment it says Deep Strike Reserves always "counts as" swooping.

Why would they use "counts as" here instead of just saying always arrives in swooping mode?

Many other places in the rules "counts as" means that it is in one state but "counting as" another state.

i.e. gliding but counts as swooping?

Another thing in changing flight modes the ONLY restriction actually specified in here is that it can't do it while falling back...why would they specify that here? It hints at allowing flight change modes at other times.

And I know all the arguments, but it is ridiculously unclear as to weather deep striking onto the table is a move that happens in the movement phase (it says at the start of the turn to do it, then hints within the deep strike rule that it happens in the movement phase)

Many other places in the rules "counts as" means that it is in one state but "counting as" another state.

i.e. gliding but counts as swooping?

Right, but in this scenario you are personally choosing the rules to follow.

If it says counts as swooping, then it counts as swooping, for being shot at, for moving, for running, for changing flight modes. It doesn't tell you it counts as swooping for X, it counts as swooping for everything unless specified otherwise, so it's a moot point.

And I know all the arguments, but it is ridiculously unclear as to weather deep striking onto the table is a move that happens in the movement phase (it says at the start of the turn to do it, then hints within the deep strike rule that it happens in the movement phase)

Right, but in this instance i would hope most players would go for the interpretation that doesnt break the game.

a) everyone has been playing it wrong all year, and we can move everyone from reserves twice
or
b) The same as now, GW may have made a small typo.(unfortunately, nail in the coffin for BT flight mode thing)

I can see why you would like it to rule one way, but the implications to the game at large or massive. If you argue that RAW the BT can change flight modes, it affects a LOT of things, and completely turns the game on it's head at times.

I get that it's frustrating, i know some rules suck. This is one of them. I was upset when i found out about praetorians losing AP2 CC for a round if they shot, It sucks, but i looked at the rule, we all did. Hardly anyone knew it existed, it surprised us, it was bulletproof though. It's tough, but it happens to all armies, sometime you get a nigh on unusable rule. we all have to deal with it.

Ps. i should probably add, outright statements, EG. "Arrive at the start of your fourth turn" , trump hints. Which one was more likely to be an accident?

Or the 4th turn is different. Thats the problem when you have no strict rule elsewhere - the exceptions arent so easy to categorise as such.

harkequin wrote:

Many other places in the rules "counts as" means that it is in one state but "counting as" another state.

i.e. gliding but counts as swooping?

Right, but in this scenario you are personally choosing the rules to follow.

If it says counts as swooping, then it counts as swooping, for being shot at, for moving, for running, for changing flight modes. It doesn't tell you it counts as swooping for X, it counts as swooping for everything unless specified otherwise, so it's a moot point.

And I know all the arguments, but it is ridiculously unclear as to weather deep striking onto the table is a move that happens in the movement phase (it says at the start of the turn to do it, then hints within the deep strike rule that it happens in the movement phase)

Right, but in this instance i would hope most players would go for the interpretation that doesnt break the game.

a) everyone has been playing it wrong all year, and we can move everyone from reserves twice
or
b) The same as now, GW may have made a small typo.(unfortunately, nail in the coffin for BT flight mode thing)

I can see why you would like it to rule one way, but the implications to the game at large or massive. If you argue that RAW the BT can change flight modes, it affects a LOT of things, and completely turns the game on it's head at times.

I get that it's frustrating, i know some rules suck. This is one of them. I was upset when i found out about praetorians losing AP2 CC for a round if they shot, It sucks, but i looked at the rule, we all did. Hardly anyone knew it existed, it surprised us, it was bulletproof though. It's tough, but it happens to all armies, sometime you get a nigh on unusable rule. we all have to deal with it.

Ps. i should probably add, outright statements, EG. "Arrive at the start of your fourth turn" , trump hints. Which one was more likely to be an accident?

Ok so playing Pure RAW (lets go down that rabbit hole of weirdness)

-deep strike restriction on moving is 'cannot move further in the movement phase it deepstriked in" so all deepstriking units come in at the start of the turn then get to move again in the movement phase

then

-deep strike is not a move because it literally, under deep strike, only says place on the table, not 'move' anywhere

-FMC deployment says it arrives and counts as swooping (it does NOT say at this point that this counts till the next turn)

Then you get to move in the movement phase, which triggers the FMC Change Flight Mode rule 'when you move choose the mode to last till the next turn'

So conclusion, pure RAW the Bloodthirster is summoned and deepstrikes on the table at start of turn, then gets to move in the movement phase and change flight modes.


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The ironic part here, is that many RAW arguments are glazing over the fact that not allowing deepstrikers to move in the movement phase is actually a RAI interpretation and then using that point against allowing the bloodthirster to change flight modes as RAW.

Except, as stated, in pure RAW you don't even get to select a model that can't move. Since you can't select it, you can't change its flight mode at the start of its move. That's pure RAW.

You're missing the part in RAW that says under deep strike that a model can't move further in the movement phase it deep strikes in (literally it is written like this) and since deep striking is done at the start of the turn and not the movement phase - the unit gets to move in the movement phase and can be selected to change its flight mode.


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Don't get me wrong, RAI noone plays it like this, but RAW - deep strikers get to deep strike (not counting as moving) and then make their move as normal in the movement phase.


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RAI - HIWPI - The Bloodthirster (or any deep strike FMC) arrives by deep strike at the start of the turn, can change flight mode in the movement phase but can't actually move.

If someone argued RAW with me, I would easily show them that the movement restriction on deep striking does not apply on units deep striking at the start of the turn (which mine did) and then proceed to move the bloodthirster in the movement phase and change its flight mode. (I'd probobly just move it 0 though, since thats how I believe the whole thing was intended)

So conclusion, pure RAW the Bloodthirster is summoned and deepstrikes on the table at start of turn, then gets to move in the movement phase and change flight modes.

Pure unadulterated RAW,( and we know how GW loves their rules) , yes

However, bear in mind the larger impact this has on the game when scaled up.

-All deep strikers may move when they arrive, and may then shoot.
-anyone who disembarked 6" from a transport arriving from reserves,(eg. Drop pods) may also make an additional move.
-All reserves may move on their distance, then move again the equal amount.

All this is based off the technicality of "in the movement phase during which they arrive" , which is a useless sentence.

This RAW, doesn't make BFTBG BTs unique in this regard, It affects a lot.

Using the common way people play (eg. not moving reserves 2x) the rule appears to be used as "in the movement phase (of the turn) in which they arrive"

Like I said, one interpretation breaks the game, big time. The other appears to be a rudimentary from of RAI that the entire community uses (i don't know of anyone doing the 2x move thing), so using the rule, (that everyone appears to ignore) as a basis for your argument is still a little silly.

So just to wrap up. Bear in mind, you are not arguing that BTs may change flight modes, if you use this rule, you are arguing for double reserve moves, (which, while technically RAW, is still pretty fething stupid). You can't argue one without the other

True, and equally I believe RAI that a bloodthirster (or any melee FMC) arriving by deepstrike, being forced to stay swooping and not allowed to change flight modes on the turn it arrives (so being forced to way 2 turns to get to assault) is just as silly.

And thats the good thing about RAI - you can have your cake and eat it too! All deepstrikers cant move in the movement phase and all FMCs can change flight modes in the movement phase they arrive.

And the biggest base of this as RAW as well, is probobly the FMC deployment rule that says it arrives counting as swooping (it does NOT specify here that this is the forced state till its next turn).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And yes, if we are all forced to play pure RAW - then all deepstrikers at the start of the turn can move in the movement phase - proving that sometimes RAI trumps RAW.

I think that you misunderstand my point. This isn't about RAI for preference, this is pure and simple game play.

If we use pure RAW for the Bloodthirster, the game breaks, the end. You are explicitly told the intent was for them not to move.

You can't argue RAI, when the rule shows they were not intended to move, and a technicality makes the rule useless.

It's not so much RAI, as an expected errata, one so expected, that no one has brought it up, as no one has been stubborn enough to claim it.

The rule shows that Deep strikers are supposed to be restricted from moving when they arrive. That is incredibly clear intent. If a FMC cant move, it cant change, Clear as day.
So RAI is against you there. HYWPI, go ahead, house rule it, but if your opponent disagrees, play his way, he has the right of it.

That demonstrates CLEAR intent.

- Deep strikers can't move (intended)
-FMCs arrive swooping
-FMCs cant change if they don't move.

The point is that since here Intent is clearly shown, the only way for you to switch modes is with pure RAW, which literally breaks the way the game has been played since the edition dropped. So probably not the right way to play.

This is why you can't have your cake and eat it too. RAI they cant move, it's clear. FMCs can't BTs are no different. Unless you allow the BT to move, and by extension all other reserves. then he cant switch.

You can't argue that the author of the book intended otherwise, he left no hints that he did, nothing diffrentiates it from other FMCs. You cant argue the BRB authors intended otherwise, as clearly shown.

So the only way to argue it for you, is pure RAW which no one plays , because it's broken. It'd be unethical of you to make a case for the BT changing modes, without telling your opponent that all reserves can move 2x (see how that goes, seriously, could be interesting game).

Bottom line since im all over the place.

-RAI, clear, no switching. (see above)
-RAW the BT moves 2x, so do all reserves

The BT is in no way unique, so you can't argue for just it to be special, either every reserve unit is, or none of them are.


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Also remember the fact that your entire argument is based on a single technicality that a rule is useless, If you have to read that far into commonly used rules to find a technicality, chances are you are looking for the result and finding a rule to make it happen, Instead of looking for a rule and using the appropriate result. The argument has been on shaky ground from the start.

Ok...but...in my business we have something called the straight face test. (it has to do with selling product and being honest about it) anyway I think it applies here.

Can you honestly say with a straight face that the intent of the bloodthirster summoning was to have it wait around in the sky for 2 turns before doing anything?

Cause if not, then it is just the same as the deepstriking and moving again argument where RAI is obvious.


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For example, even though it is RAW, I can't say, with a straight face, that RAI was to have units move after deepstriking.

And I can't say, with a straight face, that RAI was to have deep striking monstrous creatures not change mode after deep striking

I can indeed. It's supposed to be special, not every game. If the stars line up and you get massacred T1. BAM! bloodthirster, sure feels like the intent, to reward fast and bloody action.

Let's face it, armywide FNP is the better choice 9/10 times anyway.

The bloodthirster isn't supposed to come because the game went on long, you lose all BT points when you spend them, so if you're using BFTBG, you dont accrue them slowly. If you get a windfall of death, you get a BT.

Can you with a straight face say that whoever wrote "may not move further during the movement phase it arrived" intended for deep strikers to be allowed to move the movement phase of the turn they arrive?

Also, straight face test, i'll be using that in future (when it comes up)

EDIT: sorry, got ninja'd there xD

Nice, I agree to disagree
straight face test - its a good fool proof way of testing intent

I guess in the end, we just feel differently about how the rule works...ultimate rule rolloff? lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And ya I mentioned above I agree the deepstrike and move doesn't pass the straight face test.

Of course, so by general use of the rules the BT is kind of boned, but because most people agree that the FMC rule is a bit silly, we can houserule it.

And as the HYWPI poll shows, a significant portion would be willing to play it houseruled, with ~50% agreement, it's certainly understandable, and a popular enough opinion.

It's been a pleasure discussing it with you.

Deep strike happens at the start of the movement phase. When you deep strike in you come in as swooping. just like any other model you can no longer move, but you can run or shoot. so you miss the chance to declare anything other than swooping. So you will have to land next turn then wait and assualt the next turn. Anyways why would they say swooping if you could decied after it came down. A deepstriking model cant assualt anyway. So why would it even mention it if you still get to make that decision. Sorry man that employee wasnt competitive and sold you a model thay you will be hadr pressed to ever get in to the fight. But you can go buy some deamon prince with no wings and summon those. Lol. The plus side is that new model is sexy.