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I'm a little miffed about the banshee change. Most of them are spot on, the unit desperately needed it, but the no-overwatch thing rubs me the wrong way. If only because I have a fundamental disagreement with mechanics that disallow counterplay.

 Leth wrote:
Funnily enough I am extremely happy with 99% of the elder book. After looking at it, it's literally just a few things hat are problems. Really looking forward to seeing the lists the community comes out with

Yeah ditto. This doom and gloom end of the world as we know it attitude is starting to wind me up a little. Having now read most of the book from the leaked pictures I'm a lot more optimistic.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
I'm a little miffed about the banshee change. Most of them are spot on, the unit desperately needed it, but the no-overwatch thing rubs me the wrong way. If only because I have a fundamental disagreement with mechanics that disallow counterplay.

I would have to disagree. The fact that they have to run across the table for at least one turn, or stand just outside of their wave serpent for a turn, is counter enough IMO. If even half the squad dies, and the other half make it into combat, they're likely not going to win even against a regular tactical squad. This is assuming no psychic support (since, you can't reliably get the powers you want anyway). Most any basic squad of troops with 10 models and 20 shots will hurt Banshees a good bit with one turn of shooting.

There are so many candidates for a buff like no overwatch. Wyches come to mind. There's absolutely no reason to start excluding armies from a core rule just because the unit looks like it needs it (there is always a unit out there that needs it more). There are too many exceptions in the core rulebook as it is.

I don't have my rules handy and mostly I play 30k. How many LoWs are you allowed to have in standard 40k? In 30k you are allowed one per primary detachment per 2k points(and you have to hit 2k for the first one) and they cant cost more than 25% of your detachment total. For some reason 40k didn't do the 25% thing and I don't think there is a point restriction.

With the confirmation that the Knight is a LoW, how many multi-knight armies are we going to see running around?

In theory, you can have as many LOW as you have detachments, which is only limited by your points.

In practice, either 1 or 2 depending on the points level and your local environment.

On the other hand, eldar have their own formation in 7th now which allow much more than that. We will have to see how players react.

Col. Dash wrote:
I don't have my rules handy and mostly I play 30k. How many LoWs are you allowed to have in standard 40k? In 30k you are allowed one per primary detachment per 2k points(and you have to hit 2k for the first one) and they cant cost more than 25% of your detachment total. For some reason 40k didn't do the 25% thing and I don't think there is a point restriction.

With the confirmation that the Knight is a LoW, how many multi-knight armies are we going to see running around?

In competitive play not many. They are banned in NOVA, ETC and i think even ITC.

Edit: ITC allows them, but they count 2 extra kill point each (6 wounds).

Col. Dash wrote:
I don't have my rules handy and mostly I play 30k. How many LoWs are you allowed to have in standard 40k? In 30k you are allowed one per primary detachment per 2k points(and you have to hit 2k for the first one) and they cant cost more than 25% of your detachment total. For some reason 40k didn't do the 25% thing and I don't think there is a point restriction.

With the confirmation that the Knight is a LoW, how many multi-knight armies are we going to see running around?

While the Knight is LoW, there is a "Wraith construct" option with the new rules that allows 1-12 Knights, Wraith Lords, or Wraith fighter jets. Though, I think you still have to take a guardian warhost first as it is not a formation on it's own.

My thinking was that you could still only take one LoW in your army. I'm not clear on the rules / restrictions though. I am comparing this to the Harlequin heroes formation including a Solitaire, Shadowseer and Death Jester. The Solitaire is unique so it is my understanding you can't take multiples of this formation, otherwise you'd have multiple unique Solitaires running around.

Wouldn't the same apply here, where you can continue taking additional Wraith formations but only for more Wraithlords and Hemlocks?

Again, I don't know what it says in the rule book for 7th regarding Lords of War so I could be wrong. I only own one Wraithknight and would only really want to use one in a game at or above 2k points anyway for my own fluff reasons, and because they are ~£50 from third party stores.

 Bhazakhain wrote:
My thinking was that you could still only take one LoW in your army. I'm not clear on the rules / restrictions though. I am comparing this to the Harlequin heroes formation including a Solitaire, Shadowseer and Death Jester. The Solitaire is unique so it is my understanding you can't take multiples of this formation, otherwise you'd have multiple unique Solitaires running around.

Wouldn't the same apply here, where you can continue taking additional Wraith formations but only for more Wraithlords and Hemlocks?

Again, I don't know what it says in the rule book for 7th regarding Lords of War so I could be wrong. I only own one Wraithknight and would only really want to use one in a game at or above 2k points anyway for my own fluff reasons, and because they are ~£50 from third party stores.

Except LoW doesn't mean the unit is unique. Knights are not unique. You're also confused. There is the Wraith host, which is 3 wraithguard, 1 lord, 1 knight. Then there is a wraith construct option, that allows 1-12 Lords, Knights, or Wraith fliers. The wraith host, you MUST take all of the models. So even then, you would be taking multiple Knights.

The LoW part would really only apply to CADs, as the warhost options don't even really specify the Knight as a LoW.

Sorry yes, I forgot the name of that formation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So I'd like to work something out here, partly for the benefit of the community, partly to set it straight in my head. I hope this post doesn't attract too much of the flaming we've seen recently but this thread is quite level headed.

Firstly, I have been an Eldar player since 2nd edition and have always played them. Yes, you could call me a bit of a fan boy but hey, I love the hobby.

I think the new codex is fantastic and I'm really excited about playing with it but the one thing that bothers me a bit is how the new jetbikes will work.

My first thought was 'not one in three?'. My second thought was 'awesome!'. My third thought was 'but wait, that's quite a lot. I love it but it's quite a lot'.

So I want to work out a counter tactic or two for various races for the benefit of opponents. If we take equal points to a full marine tactical squad, we're looking around 140, which is about 6 upgraded bikes. If they have SLs were looking at 24 shots. Against marines that's roughly 4 casualties.

If those marines fired first at maximum range that's about one Eldar casualty. Some people may say this is imbalanced. I say the tactical squad, at least in its basic load out, isn't the answer. A more diverse response is required. I am aware this is a touchy subject so just want to caveat that I am not saying I fully agree with the jetbike change but it is now official in the rules and isn't going away so we need to discuss how to work with it.

Now I don't pretend to know all the units all other races have. I also don't want people to have to custom make a list to counter jetbikes. I want to explore what people can take in a ToC list for a given race to help counter this new threat.

Using marines as an example, clearly Eldar have the advantage of speed / manoeuvrability, range and strength. Therefore a static tactical squad isn't the answer. In this scenario we would need decent AP, the ability to redeploy or 'get in the Eldar's face', ways to get them to jink etc. Basically a way to negate these advantages. Off the top of my head, Land Speeders, multi-shot weapons like heavy bolters, large templates, bikes maybe. Since they are essentially fast moving marines in terms of stats you'd need to force lots of saves and do a few decent AP hits to force jinking.

Apologies for the horrendously long essay of a post. Just wanted to open up the floor to a discussion about solutions as a positive counter to some of the negativity we've seen in other threads / other sites. Who better to start off the process of constructive counter tactics than an Eldar player!

partninja wrote:
I would have to disagree. The fact that they have to run across the table for at least one turn, or stand just outside of their wave serpent for a turn, is counter enough IMO. If even half the squad dies, and the other half make it into combat, they're likely not going to win even against a regular tactical squad. This is assuming no psychic support (since, you can't reliably get the powers you want anyway). Most any basic squad of troops with 10 models and 20 shots will hurt Banshees a good bit with one turn of shooting.

They're already being given a +3" run and assault, effective assault grenades, as well as fear, and iirc the aspect host grants +1 WS. Access to allied Raiders gives them an assault transport. I'd say the unit does just fine without also disallowing overwatch. I agree that they suffer from being shot as they cross the board - which is a weakness of literally any unit going anywhere. Simultaneously making their assaults easier, making the unit killier, and taking away a layer of counterplay from opponents imo is too much of a buff at once. Nor do I consider shooting a unit outside of charge range to be counterplay - I'd d that no matter what unit it was, so what am I countering? Counterplay is screening a heavy weapons team with a 5x flamer command squad to dissuade a charge because of overwatch, or front-fielding 10man bolter squads of Sentinels of Terra marines because their overwatch is twin-linked (TL bolt weapons at 1/2 range). Banshees now circumvent it entirely. If they get within ~9" of a squad, it's probably dead.

Hell, the Sicarian Ruststalkers and Infiltrators both add 3'' to their run and are assault units. Infiltrators debuff normal shooting yet do nothing to overwatch. A selection of rules among armies buffs BS on overwatch, twin-links it, etc. Banshees just invalidated it all. It's playing the game for you. Disembark behind a building to screen from shooting, or turbo boost the serpent in front of the banshees to eat shots to prepare for a next turn assault rather than having the rules essentially take away your enemy's defenses for them. Hell, it could even be a "re-roll successful overwatch hits" and I'd be happier. But it just doesn't allow them.

For clarity, where in the codex does it say that the Wraith Knight is a Lord of War? I have access to a couple of pages, but not all of them. The entry has a fist in the upper left. Is that what designates it as a Lord of War?

DCannon4Life wrote:
For clarity, where in the codex does it say that the Wraith Knight is a Lord of War? I have access to a couple of pages, but not all of them. The entry has a fist in the upper left. Is that what designates it as a Lord of War?

Yes. Just as the skull indicates HQ for Warlocks, meaning you can take "A" warlock as your only HQ in a CAD.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

partninja wrote:
I would have to disagree. The fact that they have to run across the table for at least one turn, or stand just outside of their wave serpent for a turn, is counter enough IMO. If even half the squad dies, and the other half make it into combat, they're likely not going to win even against a regular tactical squad. This is assuming no psychic support (since, you can't reliably get the powers you want anyway). Most any basic squad of troops with 10 models and 20 shots will hurt Banshees a good bit with one turn of shooting.

They're already being given a +3" run and assault, effective assault grenades, as well as fear, and iirc the aspect host grants +1 WS. Access to allied Raiders gives them an assault transport. I'd say the unit does just fine without also disallowing overwatch. I agree that they suffer from being shot as they cross the board - which is a weakness of literally any unit going anywhere. Simultaneously making their assaults easier, making the unit killier, and taking away a layer of counterplay from opponents imo is too much of a buff at once. Nor do I consider shooting a unit outside of charge range to be counterplay - I'd d that no matter what unit it was, so what am I countering? Counterplay is screening a heavy weapons team with a 5x flamer command squad to dissuade a charge because of overwatch, or front-fielding 10man bolter squads of Sentinels of Terra marines because their overwatch is twin-linked (TL bolt weapons at 1/2 range). Banshees now circumvent it entirely. If they get within ~9" of a squad, it's probably dead.

Hell, the Sicarian Ruststalkers and Infiltrators both add 3'' to their run and are assault units. Infiltrators debuff normal shooting yet do nothing to overwatch. A selection of rules among armies buffs BS on overwatch, twin-links it, etc. Banshees just invalidated it all. It's playing the game for you. Disembark behind a building to screen from shooting, or turbo boost the serpent in front of the banshees to eat shots to prepare for a next turn assault rather than having the rules essentially take away your enemy's defenses for them. Hell, it could even be a "re-roll successful overwatch hits" and I'd be happier. But it just doesn't allow them.

Fair points - my only point was that the no overwatch against them isn't that big a deal if they are already footing it across the table. However, I generally don't like to consider allied shenanigans when considering tactics of the unit themselves. If I'm going to ally for a raider, I wouldn't even bother with Banshees at all and use something else (web way portal + other OP unit) completely.

Then kindly see my reference to fielding them in Serpents. Advance the Serpent, disembark, flat out / boost serpent in front of the Banshees to screen them from shots. Or disembark behind terrain (preferably LoS blocking). Very few 10 man CC squads see success footslogging.

Mind, I don't agree they needed buffs, I just have a personal disdain for removing gameplay.

From hence forth, any elder player caught fielding any of the following units shall be forever referred to as N00b.

Wraithknight
Hornets
Wraith guard
D-cannons.

Lots of love,

The hive mind!

all the people complaining about WK's are being silly...

GW made them a LOW, LOW's are *banned* in GW tournaments...

this is GW taking something OP *off the table*


most tournaments limit LOW in some way, and most alreayd have rule that would make the WK banned.


not GW's fault our tournaments allow more LOW choices then GW allows at their tournaments.

 easysauce wrote:
all the people complaining about WK's are being silly...

GW made them a LOW, LOW's are *banned* in GW tournaments...

this is GW taking something OP *off the table*


most tournaments limit LOW in some way, and most alreayd have rule that would make the WK banned.


not GW's fault our tournaments allow more LOW choices then GW allows at their tournaments.

GW don't ban anything. Examples?

Throne of skulls allows ANYTHING.

 Wilson wrote:
From hence forth, any elder player caught fielding any of the following units shall be forever referred to as N00b.

Wraithknight
Hornets
Wraith guard
D-cannons.

Lots of love,

The hive mind!

Please dub me, "NOOb, the First of His Name".

Cheers!

DCannon4Life wrote:

 Wilson wrote:
From hence forth, any elder player caught fielding any of the following units shall be forever referred to as N00b.

Wraithknight
Hornets
Wraith guard
D-cannons.

Lots of love,

The hive mind!

Please dub me, "NOOb, the First of His Name".

Cheers!

I dub thee, master N00b, the first.

So I may never again field the Wraithguard (with cannons) my now-fiance got me for my birthday?

You can, just dont run 30 of them and 40 bikes lol.

Use all the units but like alcohol, in moderation. Its probably the best way to build a list anyway/most fun

This was my list at last year's Renegade Open. I imagine I'll still be running large parts of it.

 Wilson wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
all the people complaining about WK's are being silly...

GW made them a LOW, LOW's are *banned* in GW tournaments...

this is GW taking something OP *off the table*


most tournaments limit LOW in some way, and most alreayd have rule that would make the WK banned.


not GW's fault our tournaments allow more LOW choices then GW allows at their tournaments.

GW don't ban anything. Examples?

Throne of skulls allows ANYTHING.

*looks it up*
well frick.... last I remembered their events said no low and one CAD... guess its time to take my brain pills

well see if the WK goes the way of other super heavies on the ban list for ITC NOVA and so on then

 Bhazakhain wrote:
Sorry yes, I forgot the name of that formation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So I'd like to work something out here, partly for the benefit of the community, partly to set it straight in my head. I hope this post doesn't attract too much of the flaming we've seen recently but this thread is quite level headed.

Firstly, I have been an Eldar player since 2nd edition and have always played them. Yes, you could call me a bit of a fan boy but hey, I love the hobby.

I think the new codex is fantastic and I'm really excited about playing with it but the one thing that bothers me a bit is how the new jetbikes will work.

My first thought was 'not one in three?'. My second thought was 'awesome!'. My third thought was 'but wait, that's quite a lot. I love it but it's quite a lot'.

So I want to work out a counter tactic or two for various races for the benefit of opponents. If we take equal points to a full marine tactical squad, we're looking around 140, which is about 6 upgraded bikes. If they have SLs were looking at 24 shots. Against marines that's roughly 4 casualties.

If those marines fired first at maximum range that's about one Eldar casualty. Some people may say this is imbalanced. I say the tactical squad, at least in its basic load out, isn't the answer. A more diverse response is required. I am aware this is a touchy subject so just want to caveat that I am not saying I fully agree with the jetbike change but it is now official in the rules and isn't going away so we need to discuss how to work with it.

Now I don't pretend to know all the units all other races have. I also don't want people to have to custom make a list to counter jetbikes. I want to explore what people can take in a ToC list for a given race to help counter this new threat.

Using marines as an example, clearly Eldar have the advantage of speed / manoeuvrability, range and strength. Therefore a static tactical squad isn't the answer. In this scenario we would need decent AP, the ability to redeploy or 'get in the Eldar's face', ways to get them to jink etc. Basically a way to negate these advantages. Off the top of my head, Land Speeders, multi-shot weapons like heavy bolters, large templates, bikes maybe. Since they are essentially fast moving marines in terms of stats you'd need to force lots of saves and do a few decent AP hits to force jinking.

Apologies for the horrendously long essay of a post. Just wanted to open up the floor to a discussion about solutions as a positive counter to some of the negativity we've seen in other threads / other sites. Who better to start off the process of constructive counter tactics than an Eldar player!

That would all be fine if jetbikes weren't troops, but they are.

I've already mathhammered out the details between marines and jetbikes with scatter lasers, and marines win if they get into a their rapid fire range and get to stay there, which we all know is impossible.

At max range, the jetbikes kill about .35 pts of marines per point of jetbike.

At 12" range, the marines kill about .5 pts of jetbikes per point of marine.

At 24" range, the marines deal about .25 pts of kills.

The problem here is of course that jetbikes have a 36" range, can move 12" before shooting and ~7" after shooting, and optionally turbo boost 36" if they don't shoot.

The marines can move 6".

The aforementioned mobility in addition to the fact that jetbikes are S6 makes them more useful across the whole gamut, like killing MCs, killing AV 12 and below, and of course nabbing objectives.

There's really no troop to compare them to. A lot of people are doomsaying about str D and the new superheavy WK but the real problem is absolutely the new jetbikes. They are good with their default weapons, but just completely without compare when you can give them all scatter lasers.

That's not counting the possible Buffs from the Warlock. Who comes stock with Conceal and then rolls on the Battle Runes chart.

What do you guys think of Vypers? If you run the Craftworld Warhost, you have to take 1 unit. Now that they are cheaper, they seem reasonable. I'm thinking 3-5 with dual cannons?

I want to see 3 units of wraith gaurd in serpeants infaltrate with Master of ambush.

go first
serpeants move 6
guard get out 6

That's put them 6 inches from the enemy. For 15 SD shots first turn.

Do wraith gaurd get to run then shoot ? If so that's better threat range.

Actually it's

Master of Ambush

Move 6" Forward for Scout
Move 6" forward for normal movement
Move 6" auto run
Fire.

The tournament winning armies are just going to be

CAD
Farseer
Autarch

Jetbikes
Jetbikes
Jetbikes


LOW
WraithKnight

Formation Crimson Hunter formation cause it's broken.