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I've decided to give KDK a few games as the main force instead of just allies for the sweet fearless flesh hounds. So... after making a Blood Host List I got these doubts... The slaughtercult units are the only ones benefiting from the 2nd free boon from the Blood Tithe table and not the whole army, in this I assume I'm correct, however how does it interact when the Slaughtercult HQ joins a non-slaughtercult unit like a pack of flesh hounds or some bikes?, Is this unit considered part of the salughtercult formation just because of the Lord joining them?

Good Question...


so what Rules do we have.

Boon of Khorne Special rule.
"..choose a second result// This second result applies to all units in the Formation."
So the SC IC is a unit, so it will apply to him.

The actual blood tithe table uses the term "all friendly units" so combining the two we get "All friendly units in the Formation"

So rules for IC's and special effects

rulebook p 166

Joining and leaving a unit,

"While an independent character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters"

Special rules
"When an independent character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit"
Boon of Khorne is a special rule which applies to the IC, so this does seem to apply.

"Unless specified in the rule itself,.. the unit's special rules are not conferred onto the Independent character, and the Independent Characters rules are not conferred upon the unit"

So pretty clear the special rule will not apply to the whole unit.

However if we look at the individual effects:

Adamantium will- works on whole unit

Furious charge and rage- only the IC

Feel no pain- only the IC
+1 attack - only the IC


So its basically only adamantium will that can be applied this way.
I'm also curious if an KDK IC joined a non KDK unit could pass on some effects.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Good Question...


so what Rules do we have.

Boon of Khorne Special rule.
"..choose a second result// This second result applies to all units in the Formation."
So the SC IC is a unit, so it will apply to him.

The actual blood tithe table uses the term "all friendly units" so combining the two we get "All friendly units in the Formation"

So rules for IC's and special effects

rulebook p 166

Joining and leaving a unit,

"While an independent character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters"

Special rules
"When an independent character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit"
Boon of Khorne is a special rule which applies to the IC, so this does seem to apply.

"Unless specified in the rule itself,.. the unit's special rules are not conferred onto the Independent character, and the Independent Characters rules are not conferred upon the unit"

So pretty clear the special rule will not apply to the whole unit.

However if we look at the individual effects:

Adamantium will- works on whole unit

Furious charge and rage- only the IC

Feel no pain- only the IC
+1 attack - only the IC


So its basically only adamantium will that can be applied this way.
I'm also curious if an KDK IC joined a non KDK unit could pass on some effects.

I mostly agree, however... Boon of Khorne never specifies that only models with the Boon of Khorne are affected by the 2nd gift, only that units in the slaughtercult formation are affected by it. The real question would be if the unit the IC joins is considered a formation unit due to the fact that it is composed by a Slaughtercult IC.

The benefits received by the Blood Tithe table I think would fall into:

Independent Characters and Ongoing Effects (pg. 166 BRB)

Since the effects from the BT aren't permanent special rules just effects from the blood for the blood god rule which both units have and therefore can be affected by (assuming the unit is indeed part of the formation). However if the BT table is used before the IC joins the unit then indeed the special rules granted by blood tithe wouldn't drop into the unit (except for Adamantium Will).

This is bound to stir up arguments but....

The general conses is that models are only ever members of a single unit at any given time and as such while an IC has joined a unit from outside the formation he is no longer considered a unit himself. This mean won't count as a unit from the formation either. Also, while an IC that joins a unit becomes part of that unit, that unit does not become part of him. So if a Chaos Marine IC joins a Deamonkin unit then his is in a Deamonkin unit and not a Chaos Marine unit.

hmmm


So it is clear to me that both Blood for the Blood god and Boon of Khorne are special rules, so the rules for characters and special rules apply.

The ambiguity is that Boon of Khorne, says 'units in the formation' rather than 'units with this special rule'. But of course all units in the formation have this special rule so Ok sloppy writing here.

For the OP question, I cannot see how an IC from the formation joining a unit from outside the formation could make that unit part of the formation.

For the other way around... does an IC joining a unit force it to give up its ''member of a formation' status?

We do have the blanket
"While an independent character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters"

Well blanket restrictions are blanket restrictions so I would say the IC loses formation status, But we do have an exemption for special rules.

So as the character would still have all the associated special rules, it would still definitely be eligible for the bloodtithe, which triggers off the BFTBG special rule.
However Boon of Khorne... the characters would still have the special rule but the rule applies to all units in the formation.

Its a bit messy, but RAW a Slaughtercult IC probably loses its bonus joining a non slaughtercult unit. But the fact that he still has the boon of Khorne Special Rule, gives a strong argument the other way.

I guess the HQ being the only receiver of the boon of khorne seems fair.

BUT now I have a follow up question, which probably will be rarely seen... or now that I think of might happen eventually.

What if a slaughtercult Jugger Lord joins a Charnel Cohort or CAD Jugger Herald to form a unit. Are they part of the formation? of both? just one? non?

:-D yeah the rules break down a bit when two ic's join.

Isnt there a rule aboutthe bloodhost formation that says treat the entire blood host benefit from the blood tithe table?

Two IC's forming a unit is no more complicated then an IC joining any other unit. At the end of the movement phase you declare what unit an IC is joining as long as its within coherency distance of that unit. When two ICs are close enough to join one another, say IC Bob and IC Steve, you pick one (IC Bob) and say it is joining the other (IC Steve). In this case Bob is now part of Steve's unit. If Steve was a space marine, and Bob was a grey knight then bob is now part of a space marine unit and neither of them are part of a grey knight unit.

DaKKaLAnce wrote:Isnt there a rule aboutthe bloodhost formation that says treat the entire blood host benefit from the blood tithe table?

No, there isn't

DJGietzen wrote:Two IC's forming a unit is no more complicated then an IC joining any other unit. At the end of the movement phase you declare what unit an IC is joining as long as its within coherency distance of that unit. When two ICs are close enough to join one another, say IC Bob and IC Steve, you pick one (IC Bob) and say it is joining the other (IC Steve). In this case Bob is now part of Steve's unit. If Steve was a space marine, and Bob was a grey knight then bob is now part of a space marine unit and neither of them are part of a grey knight unit.

Then they'd both be part of the formation and therefore get the affected by the formation special rules.

If an IC joins a unit from formation X then the IC is a member of a unit from formation X.

If an IC from formation X joins a unit not from formation X the IC is a member of a unit not from formation x. The unit does not become part of the formation and the IC essentially stops being part of the formation.

It doesn't matter if the unit in question is made of of 10 tactical marines or 1 IC. These two statements still hold true.

When two different ICs form a unit, the unit is not a merger of the two. One IC must join the other.

In my example if a jugger lord is part of formation X and jugger herald part of formation Y

Following what you said, If the lord (formation X) joins the Herald (Formation Y) then the unit would be considered Formation Y.

Same if the Herald is from a CAD and he joins the lord (formation X) then he is joining a unit from formation X

And now that I come to think about it, do you still have to declare you are joining a unit in 7th? I kinda remember reading that if you stayed at 2" from another unit you automatically join, no need to declare it, maybe I'm wrong just don't remember if it needs to be declared like in previous editions.

Yah, you don't have to declare unless you are within 2" of more than one unit or at the start of the game if you are deploying within a unit, so if two IC's are within 2" of each other there is no need to declare who is joining who, they are automatically considered a unit

 Lord Yayula wrote:
And now that I come to think about it, do you still have to declare you are joining a unit in 7th? I kinda remember reading that if you stayed at 2" from another unit you automatically join, no need to declare it, maybe I'm wrong just don't remember if it needs to be declared like in previous editions.

Yah, you don't have to declare unless you are within 2" of more than one unit or at the start of the game if you are deploying within a unit, so if two IC's are within 2" of each other there is no need to declare who is joining who, they are automatically considered a unit

At the end of the movement phase you declare what unit an IC is joining if it is within coherency range (or 2" in most cases) if its unclear what unit his is joining. This can happen when he is in range of more then one unit. If there is no confusion you don't need to declare, he is auto joined. In the case of two IC standing an inch apart the confusion will be who is joining whom. This is because an IC doesn't technically join the unit until the end of the movement phase and the two IC's being so close will try and cause two simultaneous actions.You set the order of those actions but once one IC has joined the others unit the second action no longer exists as the 2nd IC is no longer in range of another unit to join.