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The new fluff doesn't seem to paint them as any more persecuted or out of line than many of the other Primarchs. The Night Lords never had the Wolves attack them like the World Eater did. Even when in Scars when the Khan listed those he thought would make the galaxy a wasteland and were a threat to the crusade he mentioned Russ, Mortarion, Angron, not Curze. Even there brutal actions don't seem that much worse than Angron putting entire worlds to chainsaw swords. Even if you look at how he was treated by the other Primarchs I don't think he'd be in last place, that would either go to Perturabo or Angron.

So far no real explanation has been given like it has for Mortarion, Angron, Fulgrim, etc except that he was really depressed and felt unappreciated.

The Talos series seem to say that it was more his recruits from Nostramo that made siding with Horus a necessity "that's the flaw of the Night Lords they damn themselves". They also seem to point to Kurze wanting a chance to prove his life wasn't a waste and siding with Horus might have given him some hope of redemption.

My personal theory is that much like Perurabo he got a better offer.

Well, the thing that really makes Kruze tragic is that he knows how it all ends before it starts. He is given visions that show him, in more or less symbolic terms what is going to happen. so he already knew how most things would play out. That being said i really think he turned traitor because he takes the concept of the necessary evil to its furthest extreme.

What I mean by that is he doesn't view the villains as opposing the heroes so much as the villain serving a vital role in the relationship between good and evil. Without evil there can be no good to compare it to. Similar to the Joker’s view of his and batman’s relationship (had to make the reference.)

He shows this first in his approach to taming his own world. He accepts being the object of his subjects fear and hate so long as it keeps them in line because it is better for them to fear him and prosper than to love him and wallow in depredation and corruption.

That mindset combined with his fatalist version of divination, primed him to not only choose the path of the traitor and villain but embrace the role because he felt that he was meant to play it, and that he would be providing a vital role In the great moral dance he felt he had no way to get out of. So in short, he fell because he felt it was what he was meant to do and that he had no other choice, so he wholly embraced it and owned it. No other Primarch was a cruel and vicious during the heresy on a personal level… Yea Horus and Angron and the others committed horrible acts upon planets, but Kruze was the only one who captured and tortured and killed another Primarch outside of the field of battle… repeatedly.

No other Primarch was a cruel and vicious during the heresy on a personal level

Recent fluff makes him not much worse than others. Mannus had a eugenic fantasy of eliminating "weakness" from humanity. The khan mentioned Russ, Angron and Mortarion the primarchs that were needlessly destructive. The only primarchs that seemed to actually care about civilians were Vulkan and Corax.

I think he was just a cruel person. Even before the Emperor discovered him, yes he was punishing the wicked, but didn't he punish them in cruel and sadistic ways?

 jreilly89 wrote:
I think he was just a cruel person. Even before the Emperor discovered him, yes he was punishing the wicked, but didn't he punish them in cruel and sadistic ways?

He clogged drains with bodies

 jreilly89 wrote:
I think he was just a cruel person. Even before the Emperor discovered him, yes he was punishing the wicked, but didn't he punish them in cruel and sadistic ways?

Yeah, but bearing in mind these people were like the worst people you could imagine, rapists, sadistic murderers etc. he was only paying them back in kind. Also a lot of it was to inspire fear in the other people, that's why there were skinned bodies all over the place, if they were scared it could be them next, they wouldn't transgress, was his philosophy.

Bearing in mind the place where he grew up, you can see why he was cruel.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
I think he was just a cruel person. Even before the Emperor discovered him, yes he was punishing the wicked, but didn't he punish them in cruel and sadistic ways?

Yeah, but bearing in mind these people were like the worst people you could imagine, rapists, sadistic murderers etc. he was only paying them back in kind. Also a lot of it was to inspire fear in the other people, that's why there were skinned bodies all over the place, if they were scared it could be them next, they wouldn't transgress, was his philosophy.

Bearing in mind the place where he grew up, you can see why he was cruel.

True, but I think he may have enjoyed it a little too much. Hence why I think it was so easy for him to fall, I mean look at his Legion's tactics pre-Heresy, they were fairly brutal.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
I think he was just a cruel person. Even before the Emperor discovered him, yes he was punishing the wicked, but didn't he punish them in cruel and sadistic ways?

Yeah, but bearing in mind these people were like the worst people you could imagine, rapists, sadistic murderers etc. he was only paying them back in kind. Also a lot of it was to inspire fear in the other people, that's why there were skinned bodies all over the place, if they were scared it could be them next, they wouldn't transgress, was his philosophy.

Bearing in mind the place where he grew up, you can see why he was cruel.

True, but I think he may have enjoyed it a little too much. Hence why I think it was so easy for him to fall, I mean look at his Legion's tactics pre-Heresy, they were fairly brutal.

Oh yeah he basically was fallen from the start. Although it's interesting to note the Night Lords tactics before Curze took over were pretty much exactly the same as when Curze took over.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
I think he was just a cruel person. Even before the Emperor discovered him, yes he was punishing the wicked, but didn't he punish them in cruel and sadistic ways?

Yeah, but bearing in mind these people were like the worst people you could imagine, rapists, sadistic murderers etc. he was only paying them back in kind. Also a lot of it was to inspire fear in the other people, that's why there were skinned bodies all over the place, if they were scared it could be them next, they wouldn't transgress, was his philosophy.

Bearing in mind the place where he grew up, you can see why he was cruel.

True, but I think he may have enjoyed it a little too much. Hence why I think it was so easy for him to fall, I mean look at his Legion's tactics pre-Heresy, they were fairly brutal.

Oh yeah he basically was fallen from the start. Although it's interesting to note the Night Lords tactics before Curze took over were pretty much exactly the same as when Curze took over.

It's also interesting to note that the Inquisition's style/ tactics in managing the Imperium comes from the Night Lords. Rule through terror and brutality, enforce the law through fear (the most powerful human emotion) and when it fails, Exterminatus (Night Lords did it first).

Why did the Night Lords fall to Chaos?

Curze told his closest buddy, Fulgrim, about the visions he had. Fulgim told Dorn (who already had verbal confrontations with Curze), and since stupid is as stupid does, he confronted Curze, and Curze beat the bitch senseless, effortlessly. He was then imprisoned to pay for his crimes.

Curze divined that if things kept going, his vision (that the Emperor would kill him and the Primarchs would turn on each other and that his homeworld would be destroyed by the light of the Emperor). He then did one thing that he knew would make reality different from his visions- he blew up his homeworld.

At the time the Heresy broke out, he was in deep gak and was being recalled to Terra to answer for his crimes. Suspicious of literally everyone that wasn't part of his Legions' upper crust and disgusted with the Emperor, he sided against the Emperor.

1. Curze was being driven crazy by his visions, and no one cared.

2. His closest confidant betrayed him.

3. He bitch-slapped someone who had it coming

4. He tried the only thing he could think of to change the future

5. He refused to accept punishment for what he thought was his job.

You can only really blame him for the last of these... and still, Curze was doomed the moment he was conceived without outside influence and he never got it. His brothers and father literally could not have cared less about him. He wasn't the one who decided his job should be terrorizing planets that were turning traitor... he was just the only Primarch who could usually turn a traitorous populace loyal simply by showing up in a system... because pretty much anything was preferable to fighting the Night Lords and the results of them winning... and when that didn't happen, he had a reputation to maintain, for the good of the Emperor. It was the job he was assigned, after all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Otto Weston wrote:

It's also interesting to note that the Inquisition's style/ tactics in managing the Imperium comes from the Night Lords. Rule through terror and brutality, enforce the law through fear (the most powerful human emotion) and when it fails, Exterminatus (Night Lords did it first).

Yeah- it's both reassuring and horrible that, in the end, Curze was right about pretty much everything.

'Cause they were all bloodthirsty psychopaths who only needed to be pushed a tiny bit to fall.

 RaptorusRex wrote:
'Cause they were all bloodthirsty psychopaths who only needed to be pushed a tiny bit to fall.

"Madness is like gravity. All it takes is a little push."

I think something to also remember is that Curze was always a bit of a psychotic bastard. In Prince of Crows, for example, he comments on how his method of rule by fear/terror was "the only way" to keep the people of Nostramo in line, indicating it was the only one that worked.

Sevatar, having just finished a leisurely stroll through Curze's mind, correctly observes that rule by fear was the only method that Curze tried, not the only one that worked. He then comments that Curze never bothered with other methods, because he enjoyed the one that he settled on- that of terrorizing the populace of Nostramo into submission.

With that in mind, it's not much wonder that the Night Lords ended up siding with Horus- the Emperor wanted to call the NLs to account for all the psychotic murder that they were responsible for, while Horus was like "cool story bro, be my friend?" to which Curze decided to go along with it.

It also doesn't help that Curze becomes progressively more psychotically unstable, particularly post-Heresy. The Night Lords trilogy has some... interesting... portrayal of Curze's madness, and how it ends up bringing out the various psychotically murderous tendencies he had.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 RaptorusRex wrote:
'Cause they were all bloodthirsty psychopaths who only needed to be pushed a tiny bit to fall.

"Madness is like gravity. All it takes is a little push."

:( I miss Heath Ledger.... best Joker ever.

 RaptorusRex wrote:
'Cause they were all bloodthirsty psychopaths who only needed to be pushed a tiny bit to fall.

That's actually the worst thing about quite a lot of the night lords; they aren't.
Curze definitely is, and a lot of the Nostraman-born nightlords are just sadistic nutjobs, which - whilst horrific, is understandable.

But a lot of the terran-born ones, and a few of the early nostramans (the original recruits) are something different and in its own way, far worse - people who've taken Kurze's creed to heart, and are not psychotics, not bloodthirsty or in any way not in control of themselves, but have calmly and cooly decided that the most efficient way to win the war is to skin you alive live on a broadcast pict-feed.

It's like the view of the Chaos Gods from Argel Tal and the more archetypical word bearers (as opposed to Kor "Failed Bond villain" Phaeron) - "I don't like the chaos gods - but the truth, whatever the Imperium pretends publically, is that they exist and shape the universe. Denying this isn't going to make it go away."

Whiskey144 wrote:
I think something to also remember is that Curze was always a bit of a psychotic bastard. In Prince of Crows, for example, he comments on how his method of rule by fear/terror was "the only way" to keep the people of Nostramo in line, indicating it was the only one that worked.

Sevatar, having just finished a leisurely stroll through Curze's mind, correctly observes that rule by fear was the only method that Curze tried, not the only one that worked. He then comments that Curze never bothered with other methods, because he enjoyed the one that he settled on- that of terrorizing the populace of Nostramo into submission.

With that in mind, it's not much wonder that the Night Lords ended up siding with Horus- the Emperor wanted to call the NLs to account for all the psychotic murder that they were responsible for, while Horus was like "cool story bro, be my friend?" to which Curze decided to go along with it.

It also doesn't help that Curze becomes progressively more psychotically unstable, particularly post-Heresy. The Night Lords trilogy has some... interesting... portrayal of Curze's madness, and how it ends up bringing out the various psychotically murderous tendencies he had.

Exactly this, Curze never tried to do anything different and he never tried to avoid his fate. Each of his own actions led to his eventual assassination and it was his own actions that led to the destruction of Nostramo, not the Emperor. It's tragic that he had visions of his own death, but it's also tragic that he was so narrow minded that he never attempted to do anything different other than be a monster. He railed against his own fate but he didn't do anything to prevent it. He's a pitiful figure really, at least Angron is happy doing what he does.

Why he turned traitor, Curze vision of the Imperium wasn't inline with that of the Emperors, there was no place for people like him in it, even though there is truth in Curze beliefs. So he takes matters into his own hands, first by destroying Nostramo and then going on a rampage putting populations to the sword, dishing out his own forms of Justice. Then the Heresy breaks out and by this time it was only natural for the Night Haunter to throw his lot in with Horus who I would imagine persuaded him with promises as he did the other Primarchs, or just that he would get to see the Imperium burn.

Curze was a renegade before the heresy broke out and was his and the Night Lords own misdeeds that bought it upon themselves.

The short answer is because Konrad Curze is an ass, he could have stoped the entire heresy by warning the emperor when they furst met and his legion is made up of scum bags

Part of it, in addition to all the good points above, is his disillusionment with the Emperor and the Imperium, the facade they wear.

He says as much to the Assassin, just before he allows himself to be killed.

He also ate people.....

Captyn_Bob wrote:
He also ate people.....

He had no food in fairness.

 EmpNortonII wrote:


Curze divined that if things kept going, his vision (that the Emperor would kill him and the Primarchs would turn on each other and that his homeworld would be destroyed by the light of the Emperor). He then did one thing that he knew would make reality different from his visions- he blew up his homeworld.

Aside from disagreeing with you about Dorn, I'm pretty sure that in this case he did in fact fulfill his vision. His homeworld was destroyed by lance strikes, no?

Kurze believed that the only way to bring law and order was through fear. When exposed to the Emperor, he realized that his 'brothers' did things differently, but the fact that the Emperor accepted him proved (in his mind) that sometimes the only way to achieve compliance is through terror: making one or more horrendous examples to convince everyone else that defiance isn't worth it. Later, he eventually came to the realization that he (and the monstrous beliefs Nostramo had bred in him) were part of the problem, and that his Legion was a poison the Emperor never should have let leave Nostramo. So he returned and destroyed the planet. In a final twist of irony, this act drew the Emperor to send M'Shen to kill him, proving (to Kurze, at any rate) that he'd been right all along.

So how come M`Shen was sent instead of Russ?

Is it simply the M`Shen thing existed in the background before Russ was popularised as the 'Emperor's Executioner'?

nareik wrote:
So how come M`Shen was sent instead of Russ?

Is it simply the M`Shen thing existed in the background before Russ was popularised as the 'Emperor's Executioner'?

Well yeah partly, and I'm not sure when Curze was killed but Russ was probably busy, or had he even disappeared at that point? When was Curze actually killed?

 ImAGeek wrote:

nareik wrote:
So how come M`Shen was sent instead of Russ?

Is it simply the M`Shen thing existed in the background before Russ was popularised as the 'Emperor's Executioner'?

Well yeah partly, and I'm not sure when Curze was killed but Russ was probably busy, or had he even disappeared at that point? When was Curze actually killed?

Curze was killed after the other traitors fled to the Eye of Terror I do believe. I'm not sure if Russ was still around but even if he was his Legion had been ravaged by various battles. Attacking the Night Lords in a fortified position would have been difficult with a single small Legion. Besides that the other Traitor Legions probably took priority. The Night Lords were killing Imperials, yes, but they weren't a threat on the same scale as most of the other Traitor Legions. Plus M'shen was a Callidus and as such more likely to be able to infiltrate Curze's fortress than a Primarch (even if it turned out she was discovered when she entered the system (or so Curze said)).

Following the splitting of the Loyalist Legions into Chapters the Ultramarines and their successors (potentially all of them) scattered the Night Lord at Tsagualsa and they have been splintered warbands ever since.

nareik wrote:
So how come M`Shen was sent instead of Russ?

Is it simply the M`Shen thing existed in the background before Russ was popularised as the 'Emperor's Executioner'?

Russ and the Space Wolves would have had their asses handed to them- one on one or legion vs legion.


Assassins are expendable. Russ isn't.

It's also worth pointing out that with Curze gone, Nostromo quickly reverted back to its old ways & the most ruthless of the criminals were the only ones healthy & strong enough to be recruits for the Night Lords.

Night Lords were traitor before Horus made it cool. At that point it might as well have been "Why not? We're already here." more than anything.

Honestly it's to the point where the question should be turned on its head and instead be "Why did the traitors let the Night Lords join them?" Of course, that question is easily answered with "They needed all the help they could get", but considering the negative view Horus had of all the primarchs that joined his cause (as shown in that audio drama. I forget the name), you'd think he would have stopped and said to himself, "Gee, maybe my cause wasn't as good as I thought it was." (assuming we're going by the "I don't care about Chaos. I'm just doing this because I think I can do it better" motivation that he has right now. I could be wrong).

It's like, hey Horus, you're joined by Curze, whose's a whacko, Perturabo, whom you find to be a loser, Angron, whom you find to be a whacko, Fulgrim, who's possessed by a daemon (and possibly only joined you because of that), the runt Lorgar, and Mortarion (possibly the only guy you don't hate. Of course, Mortarion himself had second thoughts when he finally realized, "Gee, I hate sorcerors and the warp. Maybe joining the guys that worship the warp itself wasn't a very good idea."). Did you ever stop and say to yourself, "Golly, maybe this wasn't such a good idea."? BEFORE the last second before the Emperor exploded you, of course.

To be fair, there probably was no going back by that point, anyways, I suppose.

 Great White wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
I think he was just a cruel person. Even before the Emperor discovered him, yes he was punishing the wicked, but didn't he punish them in cruel and sadistic ways?

He clogged drains with bodies

That's not hard. Probably just an appendage would do it.

 GKTiberius wrote:
Well, the thing that really makes Kruze tragic is that he knows how it all ends before it starts. He is given visions that show him, in more or less symbolic terms what is going to happen. so he already knew how most things would play out. That being said i really think he turned traitor because he takes the concept of the necessary evil to its furthest extreme.

What I mean by that is he doesn't view the villains as opposing the heroes so much as the villain serving a vital role in the relationship between good and evil. Without evil there can be no good to compare it to. Similar to the Joker’s view of his and batman’s relationship (had to make the reference.)

He shows this first in his approach to taming his own world. He accepts being the object of his subjects fear and hate so long as it keeps them in line because it is better for them to fear him and prosper than to love him and wallow in depredation and corruption.

That mindset combined with his fatalist version of divination, primed him to not only choose the path of the traitor and villain but embrace the role because he felt that he was meant to play it, and that he would be providing a vital role In the great moral dance he felt he had no way to get out of. So in short, he fell because he felt it was what he was meant to do and that he had no other choice, so he wholly embraced it and owned it. No other Primarch was a cruel and vicious during the heresy on a personal level… Yea Horus and Angron and the others committed horrible acts upon planets, but Kruze was the only one who captured and tortured and killed another Primarch outside of the field of battle… repeatedly.

To be fair he only tortured him over and over cause killing him weren't werkin

But like PeteyPablo and the IronBoys wasn't he about to have a super stern talking to by big Emp's for some sort of transgression like right before or as the heresy was breaking out? So it was like kill the loyalists with the traitors and maybe live or stay loyal and die for sure. I'm asking I could be wrong but I remember there was a little bit more of an actual motive