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Hi everyone,
Longtime Lurka here but I actually have a question that I don't seem to find a simple answer to so this is my first post.
I play IG/AM and proxied a Wyvern a few weeks ago to see what I thought, before I bought the model. I thought it was good but I'm not convinced I played the rules correctly. Can someone explain how it works? Here's what I was doing:
For anyone not familiar, the Wyvern has 2 x twin-linked Stormshard Mortars which are Heavy2, Barrage, Blast
This for both LOS targets and not (I know you have to scatter for those out of sight but take that as a given)
1: choose target in range and place 1st template on desired model that'll give most hits;
2: roll scatter and determine finishing position. Re-Roll if desired to get a better position.
3: roll scatter dice only to determine direction of the second blast of the first shot. Re-roll if required (is this allowed?).
4: place second template in this direction. It must slightly overlap the 1st blast as a minimum , but can be practically completely overlapping if desired, you choose what is going to hurt most.
5: Repeat from point 2-4 for the 2nd twin-linked mortars. So the 3rd blast placed over your very first desired target and determine scatter from there. (As if they are two seperate weapons with seperate outcomes, as long as you start from the same target)
Is this right? Or am I wrong. I probably only have 10 games of 40k under my belt in total (plus some kill team) and don't have any other mortar/barrage units so don't have much experience with them.
You place the first template, rerolling the scatter if needed/desired.
The 2nd, 3rd and 4th templates only roll the scatter dice (no reroll allowed) and are placed in the direction indicated by the arrow touching the first template edge to edge or in the case of a hit - anywhere touching (including overlapping) the first template.
It follows the rules of multiple barrages in the BRB
Massaen wrote: You place the first template, rerolling the scatter if needed/desired.
The 2nd, 3rd and 4th templates only roll the scatter dice (no reroll allowed) and are placed in the direction indicated by the arrow touching the first template edge to edge or in the case of a hit - anywhere touching (including overlapping) the first template.
It follows the rules of multiple barrages in the BRB
Why is no re-roll allowed for subsequent blast markers? The weapon is twin-linked. Also, a Hit! result allows further blast markers to be placed so that it touches ANY marker that has already been placed, not just the original marker (Page 160).
Twin-Linked surely means re-roll ALL to hit rolls?
And if all subsequent blasts are relative to the first then that would make sense fluff-wise and 'in real life' as it'd be a 'barrage' rather than a daisy chain... but a Hit! Surely means it goes exactly where the attacker wants it to go?
But if these are all true then it is slightly overpowered.
I want to ask something. A friend of mine claims that from 2nd blast onward you can put the blasts touching any other blast, not only the first. I had some difficult finding the rules to deny that, so I'd like your help, fellas. An illustration to help you understanding my point:
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/19 14:25:21
The twin-link doesn't stop applying to 2nd, 3rd and 4th role of the scatter die- these can be re-rolled (but the second result accepted, obviously).
If an arrow is rolled for 2nd, 3rd or 4th scatter, the blasts flip from the original placement so that the subsequent blast's edge touches the first blast's edge. Think of two circles, touching each other. You cannot overlap them by choice, they touch exactly edge-to-edge.
If a hit is rolled for the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th scatter, that blast can be placed touching or overlapping any of the prior blasts. This can include anything from being entirely on top of, or touch edge-to-edge. This means that even if the original blast placement scatters wildly off target, if you get enough Hits with the scatter die, you can effectively 'walk' the subsequent blasts, the edge of each touching the edge of the prior one, so that they form a line to whatever it is you want to hit.
(Also useful to remember, if the hole of a barrage weapon is over the top of a vehicle's hull, it always hits the side armour)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/19 15:36:40
Lippy777 wrote: Twin-Linked surely means re-roll ALL to hit rolls?
Absolutely. We can also re-roll scatter die, although if we choose to do that we have to re-roll the 2D6 as well.
BRB, on twin-linked, wrote:If the scatter dice does not roll a hit, you can choose to re-roll the dice with a Twin-linked Blast weapon. If you choose to do so, you must re-roll both the 2D6 and the scatter dice.
BRB, on blasts, wrote:If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6.
You roll for scatter when firing the first blast. That's the scatter die, plus 2D6. We can certainly re-roll that if it fails to give us a hit. When placing the second and subsequent blasts, though, you're just rolling the scatter die. Can you re-roll the scatter dice? Only if we also re-roll the 2D6 as well. We didn't roll 2D6, so we don't have permission to re-roll the scatter die. This line of reasoning does encounter problems when we only scatter 1D6 (due to servo skulls, etc) or 3D6 (due to orbital weapons, etc). You can (kind of?) resolve that by arguing that the Orbital/Servo-Skull/etc rule is from a codex, and so takes precedence over the "must re-roll the 2D6 as well" bit of the barrage rule. Maybe. I have no idea what the RAI are either - twin-linked is intended to let us re-roll scatters, but are subsequent barrage blasts viewed as a scatter? As for HIWPI: If I'm using a wyvern, I'll play it so that I can't re-roll subsequent blasts. That's the most conservative ruling. If my opponent using a wyvern, I won't object if they re-roll subsequent blasts. That's the most conservative ruling. If both sides have a wyvern, I'll perform a facepalm.
@ Vector Strike: Check the multiple barrage rules. If you roll an arrow, you place the marker in that direction so it's "touching the edge of the first marker placed" (emphasis mine). You don't get any choice here. You place it exactly where the arrow tells you to place it, and it's in relation to the first marker. If you roll a Hit, you place the marker "so that it touches any part of any marker in the group that has already been placed" (emphasis mine). You can choose exactly where to place it (it can even overlap an existing marker), just so long as at least one part of this new marker touches at least one part of at least one marker already placed. In the example given, that final blast (the one with the arrow pointing at it) can only be placed there if you'd rolled a "Hit".
EDIT:
God In Action wrote: (Also useful to remember, if the hole of a barrage weapon is over the top of a vehicle's hull, it always hits the side armour)
Quibble - you can go even further than that - with barrage weapons, "hits against vehicles are always resolved against their side armour". The hole could be quite far away, especially if it's a really big blast.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/04/19 16:08:18
You are given no permission to reroll the 2nd and on blast markers. Twin linked specifies if you choose to reroll the scatter dice you must reroll the 2d6 AND the scatte dice.
When you fire multiple barrage you only reroll the 2d6 on the initial shot.
As such, unless you can provide a reference - you have no permission to reroll after the initial template is placed
God In Action wrote: The twin-link doesn't stop applying to 2nd, 3rd and 4th role of the scatter die- these can be re-rolled (but the second result accepted, obviously).
If an arrow is rolled for 2nd, 3rd or 4th scatter, the blasts flip from the original placement so that the subsequent blast's edge touches the first blast's edge. Think of two circles, touching each other. You cannot overlap them by choice, they touch exactly edge-to-edge.
If a hit is rolled for the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th scatter, that blast can be placed touching or overlapping any of the prior blasts. This can include anything from being entirely on top of, or touch edge-to-edge. This means that even if the original blast placement scatters wildly off target, if you get enough Hits with the scatter die, you can effectively 'walk' the subsequent blasts, the edge of each touching the edge of the prior one, so that they form a line to whatever it is you want to hit.
(Also useful to remember, if the hole of a barrage weapon is over the top of a vehicle's hull, it always hits the side armour)
To summarize:
1st blast hits (ok)
2nd hits (overlap, touch, inner contact, etc the 1st)
3rd hits (can overlap, touch, inner contact, etc either 2nd or 3rd)
4th scatters (must touch - no overlap or inner contact - the original blast)
I've been thinking about this and twin-linked for multiple barrages and wonder if this would perhaps settle some things:
You have to reroll the scatter and 2d6 for twinlink. It seems that you could reroll all the scatter and the 2d6, but the problem comes from rerolling 'just' the subsequent scatters.
Solution that I think fits all the rules together:
1) Roll 2d6 and scatter, place initial blast, do not reroll these yet.
2) Roll subsequent scatters, do not reroll these yet
3) Determine if you like the placement of all the blasts...if you do...great!
4) If you don't, you must reroll ALL the 2d6 and scatter dice. So you get a whole new pattern. It may be better, or it may not be better, but you have to keep this second pattern. It meets the ability to reroll scatters, and meets the requirement to reroll both the 2d6 and scatter. This also decreases the accuracy from insanely good for getting to place everything just how you like it.
God In Action wrote: The twin-link doesn't stop applying to 2nd, 3rd and 4th role of the scatter die- these can be re-rolled (but the second result accepted, obviously).
If an arrow is rolled for 2nd, 3rd or 4th scatter, the blasts flip from the original placement so that the subsequent blast's edge touches the first blast's edge. Think of two circles, touching each other. You cannot overlap them by choice, they touch exactly edge-to-edge.
If a hit is rolled for the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th scatter, that blast can be placed touching or overlapping any of the prior blasts. This can include anything from being entirely on top of, or touch edge-to-edge. This means that even if the original blast placement scatters wildly off target, if you get enough Hits with the scatter die, you can effectively 'walk' the subsequent blasts, the edge of each touching the edge of the prior one, so that they form a line to whatever it is you want to hit.
(Also useful to remember, if the hole of a barrage weapon is over the top of a vehicle's hull, it always hits the side armour)
To summarize:
1st blast hits (ok)
2nd hits (overlap, touch, inner contact, etc the 1st)
3rd hits (can overlap, touch, inner contact, etc either 2nd or 3rd)
4th scatters (must touch - no overlap or inner contact - the original blast)
Am I right?
bingo. I'd have to look at my rulebook to re-think the argument about not being able to re-roll the 2nd, 3rd and 4th scatter because there is only a scatter die. My gut feeling says that doesn't make sense, but a gut feeling counts for nothing here.
Massaen wrote: You are given no permission to reroll the 2nd and on blast markers. Twin linked specifies if you choose to reroll the scatter dice you must reroll the 2d6 AND the scatte dice.
When you fire multiple barrage you only reroll the 2d6 on the initial shot.
As such, unless you can provide a reference - you have no permission to reroll after the initial template is placed
If you cannot ever shoot, can you complete the first requirement?
Or this - cast enfeeble on a vehicle. You must (as as an instruction it carries no optional element) lower the vehicles toughness by -1. Please demonstrate how you will do so.
The end result is that you must do something that is not relevant. Same as twinlinking a servo skull influenced blast only allowing you to reroll 1D6. Specific overrides general. There is no mention of multiple barrage in the TL rule, so why are you ignoring the TL rule and saying it cannot function in this instance?
Well I'm very glad I brought this up as it seems to have caused quite a debate and I don't feel as silly for not understanding it clearly.
I'm thinking that:
Reroll scatters on all blasts regardless of having d6 or not;
Blasts 2-4 scatter from blast 1, and must touch it;
Hit!s can be placed anywhere providing they touch at least one of the preceding blasts - whether that's outer edge or overlapping.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And if my opponent disagrees we'll just roll for it
Kinda like 'pen to prove'
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/20 15:22:13
A "Scatter" (scatter dice plus 2D6 as defined in the Rulebook) and a "scatter dice" (a single dice with arrows and a hit on it) are not the same thing.
A scatter dice is a component in a Scatter (as are 2D6).
Twin-liked allows you to re-roll a Scatter.
The subsequent templates are placed with a scatter dice, not a Scatter. Twin-linked does nothing there.
grendel083 wrote: A "Scatter" (scatter dice plus 2D6 as defined in the Rulebook) and a "scatter dice" (a single dice with arrows and a hit on it) are not the same thing.
A scatter dice is a component in a Scatter (as are 2D6).
Twin-liked allows you to re-roll a Scatter.
The subsequent templates are placed with a scatter dice, not a Scatter. Twin-linked does nothing there.
That would make sense, but the BRB doesn't spell that out. Twin-linked doesn't explicitly limit itself to Scatter - indeed, whenever it mentions twin-linking it only mentions the scatter die and 2D6, not "Scatter".
BRB quotes in the spoiler tag.
Spoiler:
BRB, in the blast rules, wrote:Blast Weapons and Re-rolls If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6.
The rules for blast weapons mention Scatter, but the section on how Twin-linked affects blasts does not mention Scatter, only the scatter dice and 2D6.
BRB, in the twin-linked rules, wrote:Twin-linked Blast Weapons If the scatter dice does not roll a hit, you can choose to re-roll the dice with a Twin-linked blast weapon. If you choose to do so, you must re-roll both the 2D6 and the scatter dice.
/ BMG: Mr. Freeze, Deathstroke / Battletech: SR, OWA / Fallout Factions: BoS / HGB: Caprice / Malifaux: Arcanists, Guild, Outcasts / MCP: Mutants / SAGA: Ordensstaat / SW Legion: CIS / WWX: Union
Death Korps of Krieg Siege Army 1500 
bingo. I'd have to look at my rulebook to re-think the argument about not being able to re-roll the 2nd, 3rd and 4th scatter because there is only a scatter die. My gut feeling says that doesn't make sense, but a gut feeling counts for nothing here.
