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I've said it before and I still stand by it, in agreement with MWHistorian and Jonolikespie: So many little bits and pieces of the culture of The GW HobbyTM add up to some kind of psychological trap, if you spend long enough immersed in it. It faintly disturbs me when I see people like the BOLS author turn around and praise that trap, toeing the party line, even though that party line seems to spring from their own imagination rather than anything GW said.
People want different things; the fact that some gamers like fluff or something means that they'll never play a balanced ruleset. Other games are too abstract; who wants to play a wargame quickly and smoothly, two or even three times in an evening, when you can spend that whole evening resolving aaall the effects and rolls and rerolls of your armyful of speshul little individuals? Other games have a smaller player base; your friends will never want to play anything else so don't bother to try, even if they suggest it themselves, and keep buying broken £35 rulebooks so you can play 40K anywhere you like, even though you've never been anywhere outside your local GW. GW akshullee has cheap minis; never mind that you need a good couple of hundred of them, that some might become unusable in the near future, or that those 'cheap' £2.50+ skitarii are actually a lot higher in price than a great deal of plastic and metal rank 'n' file minis out there. GW just wants to make lovely games and minis for us; we have always been at war with Eastasia.

The attitude so many have that GW does nothing wrong is incredibly disturbing to me. It's like politics or a cult. I get people may enjoy the game despite the flaws but I see so many people incapable of even seeing or acknowledging the flaws exist at all and make completely ignorant and false statements to defend their ignorance.

 Accolade wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised in the guy who wrote "Spots the Space Marine" got death threats from these people.

I'm pretty sure the author was female, so I'd almost bet money on it.

WayneTheGame wrote:
The attitude so many have that GW does nothing wrong is incredibly disturbing to me. It's like politics or a cult. I get people may enjoy the game despite the flaws but I see so many people incapable of even seeing or acknowledging the flaws exist at all and make completely ignorant and false statements to defend their ignorance.

I saw a documentary a while ago about the cultlike culture that sprang up (or was built) around Apple, and Apple stores. I couldn't help but imagine it could've easily been about GW too.

That brings me back to TheNewBlood's complaint on the previous page: the tragedy is that some of the arguments do seem like an abusive relationship from some angles. Not to repeat myself from my previous post, but it's like... No, really, I like paying increasing price tags, paying more than I should need to. It's not GW's fault... they have shops to look after, you know. And it's a sign that they really care about me - astronomical prices mean they can give me the absolute best product and experience. Well, at least those plastic injection moulds need to be paid for. The Perrys and Gripping Beast and Mantic etc. etc. etc. offering plastic-injection minis for pennies... that's a totally different situation to what GW and I have got. What, those horribly unbalanced and clunky rules? Well... um... that's what gives them character... or lets me play in different ways, or something... Anyway, rules aren't important. They're not. £35 for a single partial broken army list is completely missing the point compared to all the pretty words and colours that GW gives me with it, and what GW really does for me... You just don't know them the way I do, you don't see how kind and tender they can... what? W-who's Maggie Hogarth...?

Also, given I used a 1984 reference in my last post, I just went back to the BOLS article and only now really noticed that Dan Bearss used a 'Big Brother' image in defense of GW. That is creepy.

Maybe one day, 40k will shrink to the point where it actually becomes a cult. Groups of fanatics will go store to gaming store, setting up games of Imperial Knights and Space Marines fighting evil Space Marines and demons. They won't actually play a game between them- no, they will have transcended past the petty concepts of "gaming," and instead espous the wonders of Kirby and all he can do for the heathens playing Infinity and X-wing.

 Accolade wrote:
Maybe one day, 40k will shrink to the point where it actually becomes a cult. Groups of fanatics will go store to gaming store, setting up games of Imperial Knights and Space Marines fighting evil Space Marines and demons. They won't actually play a game between them- no, they will have transcended past the petty concepts of "gaming," and instead espous the wonders of Kirby and all he can do for the heathens playing Infinity and X-wing.

Heh, gaming is such an ugly word, they've elevated themselves above such crude concepts, now the enlightened exclusively enjoy "shared experiences". Forge the narrative!

 Chute82 wrote:
Thanks for reminding me why I never check out BoLS.

Ditto. Boring site.

I didn't go to BOLS, but I read that, and I can agree that there are parells with GW in it. I think it's lack of communication (And prices) with its customers is one of the things that turned me away from it before I had bought a Codex, but had some figures. I like W40K, but the almost fanatical players near me that kept saying GW had done nothing wrong, even when I pointed out their flaws, scared me.
I think GW needs to start listening to save themselves, and if they did, they might get me to play.

 Vermis wrote:
we have always been at war with Eastasia.

Hate to burst BOLS two minutes hate on GW critics but the game is in measurable decline marked by objective data (falling revenue + rising competition) . Besides, we've been at war with Eurasia this whole time!

RoninXiC wrote:
You dont need their "ouf of the box" section.

Just use http://ttfix.blogspot.de/ for daily massive updates on new minis.

That's the only reason I go to BoLs also.

So thank you for that link.

Now I don't have to got there and this site is better!

Wow. That was a good read. The comments
Article, I mean. Any idea if/how that has changed
in the face of Pathfinder?

Stockholm syndrome and gaming? I'm mildly surprised that he didn't mention sunk costs as a reason to stay in.

Read the bols piece and wanted to write a long rant but Ryan Dancey said it perfectly.

I still get excited for GW stuff and then i see the new price (increase) and then i buy something from a different company.

While I agree with the more anti GW stance here its rather funny seeing how opposite the comments are here.

One side is laughing at you guys for being full of hate and telling them what they enjoy.

The other side laughing at them for being delusional or sympathetic to GW.

I found a lot of the articles points a bit silly though. Very short and ill thought out.

 Swastakowey wrote:
While I agree with the more anti GW stance here its rather funny seeing how opposite the comments are here.

One side is laughing at you guys for being full of hate and telling them what they enjoy.

The other side laughing at them for being delusional or sympathetic to GW.

Just finished reading this thread and I agree. Its almost like 2 sides of the same coin. Maybe yin and yang is a better term?

I've been playing GW a long time and I always go back mainly for the models and background. I also play alot of other games, currently FoW(Vietnam), Malifaux and SAGA, but I also garage full of games that could have been. Most of those are from Kickstarter. I'm always looking at the new games coming out as I just love wargaming in general (looking at you planetside and/or dropzone commander).

I don't know if GW actually does listen or not. I have my own theories but I'm actually happy with where the game is at right now. At our local store we have a lot of people either coming back to 40K or starting it up. Does that mean GW isn't in trouble? I don't know. All it means to me is that I have people locally that I can play. If GW does eventually go under, a la TSR, I will be sad but hopeful that someone will pick up the torch and do a decent job of it, unlike WoTC and Battletech. If it is allowed to die I will simply move on because such is life

Not listening to the customers will kill GW just like it killed TSR (as Dancey explained about TSR).

Ryan S. Dancey, VP, Wizards of the Coast wrote:Amazingly, despite all those problems, and despite years of neglect, the D&D game itself remained, at the core, a viable business. Damaged; certainly. Ailing; certainly. But savable? Absolutely.

This is the salient point for me. Some products are just gold. Regardless of how much you abuse and ignore your customers, regardless of how incompetent your directors are, regardless of how many millions you embezzle through your wife's web design company... if you're sitting on a fething goldmine then you just can't help turning up a bit of gold each year. But simply turning a profit does not mean a business is running well, it might just mean you've got a great product that will absorb a lot of mistakes.

Hopefully, if GW ever does go under (something that looks just a hint more likely to me with every bone-headed trick they pull) and somebody does pick it up, fans won't (still) think that horrible imbalance, the chance to be gouged for your money, and scrub-culture are the 'gold' that needs to be saved.

But by that time there'll be like, what, two dozen of them? So who cares.

Yeah, it's the fiction that needs to be saved. Hopefully they keep
that at the core.

Time bubbles anyone?

 malfred wrote:
Yeah, it's the fiction that needs to be saved. Hopefully they keep
that at the core.

Time bubbles anyone?

As opposed to floating bubbles of space-time enclosing what remains of the Warhammer world?

Stockholm, nothing... welcome to Buchenwald, as entire armies are executed....

So glad I had already pulled out of Warhammer by the time that sprang out of the Warp.

The Auld Grump - GW has always used the post binder method of setting history....

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/05/40k-deep-thought-the-more-you-try-to-balance.html

And another one appears...

 Grimtuff wrote:
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/05/40k-deep-thought-the-more-you-try-to-balance.html

And another one appears...

40K is a hobby

Good start....

Well actually even if you took the top boys from Privateer Press and FFG, bathed them in the blood of Mat Ward and then let them have free range on the ruleset, terrain and IGYG can render the tightest ruleset an irrelevance if one side is unlucky

lol....

Well that was an "interesting" read. Balance is clearly an impossibility so why bother even trying? Its not as if other games manage it.......

I find it hilarious that the BOLS crowd constantly try to defend GW's decisions. 40k isn't balanced, we know that, but that doesn't excuse the fact it's not.

I also like how seemingly 40k is a hobby but other games aren't?

WayneTheGame wrote:
I find it hilarious that the BOLS crowd constantly try to defend GW's decisions. 40k isn't balanced, we know that, but that doesn't excuse the fact it's not.

I also like how seemingly 40k is a hobby but other games aren't?

Evil Inc spewed that here as well.
Warmachine and Infinity not a hobby? could have fooled me.

 Grimtuff wrote:
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/05/40k-deep-thought-the-more-you-try-to-balance.html

And another one appears...

The sandbox comment made me throw up a little in my mouth... On a somewhat unrelated anecdotal note, I stopped by the FLGS for only the second time this year and it was 40k day. Whereas previously there would be a dozen or more folks playing 40k and a few more building stuff during 5th edition, there were two small games going on total. YMMV. One of the big draws for me with 40k was the utility of having a goto game that I could reasonably expect a pickup game for after making the 25 mile drive. That hasn't been the case for a while.

The worst part is I still want to play. I play Warmachine but it doesn't satisfy me. But then I look at 40k's current state and how the locals want to play, and I slap myself for being stupid.

40k isn't a hobby for the BoLS crowd, it is a way of life.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

WayneTheGame wrote:
The worst part is I still want to play. I play Warmachine but it doesn't satisfy me. But then I look at 40k's current state and how the locals want to play, and I slap myself for being stupid.

Feel the same way, but I do surrender to the stupidity on occasion.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
40k isn't a hobby for the BoLS crowd, it is a way of life.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

WayneTheGame wrote:
The worst part is I still want to play. I play Warmachine but it doesn't satisfy me. But then I look at 40k's current state and how the locals want to play, and I slap myself for being stupid.

Feel the same way, but I do surrender to the stupidity on occasion.

I think if I didn't lose all my stuff and would have to start from scratch, I would as well But looking at hundreds to start makes it easier to have the willpower

I too would like to play but it just doesn't feel like it is worth the hassle personally unless I schedule it in advance. The idea of just showing up on 40k day and getting in 2 games in an afternoon just hasn't worked for me the last few times I tried in 6th due to lower player turnout. 7th edition sunk the playerbase even further. If I show up for a "pickup" game now, I feel like I need to negotiate a prenup. Previously, I just had to ask about the codex, points total, and whether they were using any forgeworld stuff. Now, I need to clear the number of sources, the number of detachments, if there are fliers, if there are fortifications, if there are superheavies or gargantuans, and if they're unbound.

Playing my IG versus a deathguard dark eldar inquisition eldar force with a knight or two isn't the type of narrative I want to "forge". That isn't a wargame in my book but rather what you used to do UNDER the table as a kid with your cousins on holidays when your thundercats and autobots challenged his he man, gobots, and ninja turtles to a battle.

 warboss wrote:
I too would like to play but it just doesn't feel like it is worth the hassle personally unless I schedule it in advance. The idea of just showing up on 40k day and getting in 2 games in an afternoon just hasn't worked for me the last few times I tried in 6th due to lower player turnout. 7th edition sunk the playerbase even further. If I show up for a "pickup" game now, I feel like I need to negotiate a prenup. Previously, I just had to ask about the codex, points total, and whether they were using any forgeworld stuff. Now, I need to clear the number of sources, the number of detachments, if there are fliers, if there are fortifications, if there are superheavies or gargantuans, and if they're unbound.

Playing my IG versus a deathguard dark eldar inquisition eldar force with a knight or two isn't the type of narrative I want to "forge". That isn't a wargame in my book but rather what you used to do UNDER the table as a kid with your cousins on holidays when your thundercats and autobots challenged his he man, gobots, and ninja turtles to a battle.

That's actually a really good analogy of what 40k has become.