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First off, thanks in advance for any advice or criticisms to help me improve this list, especially if the double CAD is illegal (I'm new to this edition and this way of composing armies). I'm trying to be competitive without spending hundreds of dollars to get muclid models.

Here it goes:

TYRANIDS CAD [1190]

-HQ-[240]
Hive Tyrant
Wings
X2 TL Devourer with Brainleech worms
Electroshock Grubs

-HQ-[240]
Hive Tyrant
Wings
X2 TL Devourer with Brainleech worms
Electroshock Grubs

-HEAVY-[200]
Tyrannofex
Electroshock Grubs
Adrenal Glands

-HEAVY- [135]
Carnifex Brood
Adrenal Glands

-HEAVY- [135]
Carnifex Brood
Adrenal Glands

-TROOP- [45]
Ripper Swarm Brood
Deep Strike

-TROOP- [45]
Ripper Swarm Brood
Deep Strike

-ELITE-[50]
Zoanthrope Brood

-ELITE-[50]
Zoanthrope Brood

-ELITE-[50]
Zoanthrope Brood

TYRANIDS CAD [760]

-HQ-[240]
Hive Tyrant
Wings
X2 TL Devourer with Brainleech worms
Electroshock Grubs

-HQ-[130]
DEATHLEAPER

-TROOP- [45]
Ripper Swarm Brood
Deep Strike

-TROOP- [45]
Ripper Swarm Brood
Deep Strike

-HEAVY-[200]
Tyrannofex
Electroshock Grubs
Adrenal Glands

-ELITE-[50]
Zoanthrope Brood

-ELITE-[50]
Zoanthrope Brood


Any thoughts?

Here are a few thoughts:

- I don't see the value in having the deathleaper in this list. My understanding is that he is so that the rippers don't scatter, and maybe IC hunting, but really, his points can be better spent elsewhere.
- My guess is the double CAD is for more Flyrants and Heavy slots, but why not just use the Hive Fleet detachment which comes stock with 3 HQ slots and drop the deathleaper all together? This way you can minimize your Ripper Swarm Tax, and boost up with other more valuable models.
- I don't see the value in Adrenal Glands on the Tyrannofex's. This just seems like wasted points.
- Multiple small units of Zoan's will greatly increase your warp charge dice, along with 3 Flyrants, but with all of the abilities you are going to generate, you don't have many units that are worth while to put abilities like Catalyst on.
- 2 Fexes in this type of list will likely be able to taken out easily, or just out right ignored. Adrenal is nice to get them into combat faster, but they can be tar-pitted easily and will have a tough time getting their value back. My thought is that Fexes are best used in CC with the aid of another unit or large squad of gaunts to really create a 1-2 punch.

Ultimately, it all comes down to the style/type of game you will be playing. If it is malestrome, MSU will help get objectives, but if it is straight kill points, those Zoan's can get dropped easily and will hurt against you.

My suggestion is to look at the formations such as sky blight and the such, as I've seen them being used in competition, and provide a bit more flexibility then just straight double CAD flyrant lists.

Hi LemanRuse!

Definitely agree with Don_Keyballs on most of those points, and here are some other inputs:
- DLeaper really doesn't seem worth it when some lictors could do very similar things (i.e. Pheromone Trail and not take up an HQ slot)

- Depending on your game type (Kill Points, TacObj, etc...) you may also want to squad up on the Zoanthropes or others (helps FOC and makes the FnP psychic power much more bang for its buck )

- Personally I almost never run Tyrannofexes: I just find that with our already crowded Heavy Support slots it is usually not worth it (MIGHT be viable if you exchange the Rupture cannon for the Assault 20 Str. 3 Ap5 shots or keep the E-shock grubs with the template option to have a double template monstrosity)

- With those CC Carnifexes, and even the Tyrannofexes, cover is essential. Slogging them in from your deployment zone to CC range is akin to suicide, especially if the play style run will be "overwhelm them with everything at once" when that may just be a tactical folly on the beginning turns of the game. With all the Str.6+ and Ap3- in the game, they are targets and surprisingly squishy. Either find the points to screen them with gribblies or, even better, get some Venomthropes or Malanthropes for some porta-Shrouded.

- Back to the Carnifexes, Don makes a good point and while the Cfex is great at anti armor, it is atrocious against masses of models. I prefer to run my Cfexes with 2 TL Devs just for that added firepower. With Str. 9 (and without good CC weapons.... Crushing Claws strewn dejectedly into the bin of "do not want" ) they are already pretty solid in the CC arena . Though, with all the TL Dev Flyrants you have, shooting may not be your number one priority ... I digress.

- Lastly I would make sure you knew that your math is a little off.... [1190] + [760] = 1950.... you may be gimping yourself 45 points!!!

Well that's about it.... and of course there are some things I haven't pointed out in lieu of "forcing" my play-style onto you, but all-in-all decent for a late game obj denial/ obj grabbing army. You can never have enough Flyrant

Thanks for the great advice!

I worked up a new list directly from Hive Fleet Leviathan that covers most of the advice I was given.

I have a quick question about swarms. Are they able to give cover saves to other units? I seem to remember something in an earlier edition that they could never be considered intervening models in the concept of cover. If they can't, then I will have to rework some things to integrate more genestealers into the list. I know they are not optimal, but i have a ton of them thanks to buying 6 deathstorm sets, and if they can actually get into combat, they can do some damage. I wish they were between 8 and 10 points apiece. Maybe next codex.

So here we go with the updates:

1999 Points

HQ: 720
TROOPS: 219
ELITE: 240
HEAVY: 820

-HQ-[240]
Hive Tyrant
Wings
X2 TL Devourer with Brainleech worms
Electroshock Grubs

-HQ-[240]
Hive Tyrant
Wings
X2 TL Devourer with Brainleech worms
Electroshock Grubs

-HQ-[240]
Hive Tyrant (165)
Wings (35)
X2 TL Devourer with Brainleech worms (30)
Electroshock Grubs (10)

-TROOP- [45]
Ripper Swarm Brood
Deep Strike

-TROOP- [45]
Ripper Swarm Brood
Deep Strike

-TROOP- [45]
Ripper Swarm Brood
Deep Strike

-TROOP- [84]
Genestraler Brood
Additional Genestealer

-HEAVY- [450]
Carnifex Brood
X2 TL Devourer with Brainleech worms
Additional Carnifex
X2 TL Devourer with Brainleech worms
Additional Carnifex
X2 TL Devourer with Brainleech worms

-HEAVY-[185]
Tyrannofex (175)
Electroshock Grubs (10)

-HEAVY-[185]
Tyrannofex
Electroshock Grubs

-ELITE-[150]
Zoanthrope Brood
Zoanthrope Brood
Zoanthrope Brood

-ELITE-[45]
Venomthrope Brood

-ELITE-[45]
Venomthrope Brood


Any improvement, or am I still barking up the wrong tree?

Other than adding a bunch of genestealers, I am pretty much stuck with the models I have right now. But I am open to any suggestions.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Don_Keyballs wrote:
Here are a few thoughts:

- I don't see the value in having the deathleaper in this list. My understanding is that he is so that the rippers don't scatter, and maybe IC hunting, but really, his points can be better spent elsewhere.
- My guess is the double CAD is for more Flyrants and Heavy slots, but why not just use the Hive Fleet detachment which comes stock with 3 HQ slots and drop the deathleaper all together? This way you can minimize your Ripper Swarm Tax, and boost up with other more valuable models.
- I don't see the value in Adrenal Glands on the Tyrannofex's. This just seems like wasted points.
- Multiple small units of Zoan's will greatly increase your warp charge dice, along with 3 Flyrants, but with all of the abilities you are going to generate, you don't have many units that are worth while to put abilities like Catalyst on.
- 2 Fexes in this type of list will likely be able to taken out easily, or just out right ignored. Adrenal is nice to get them into combat faster, but they can be tar-pitted easily and will have a tough time getting their value back. My thought is that Fexes are best used in CC with the aid of another unit or large squad of gaunts to really create a 1-2 punch.

Ultimately, it all comes down to the style/type of game you will be playing. If it is malestrome, MSU will help get objectives, but if it is straight kill points, those Zoan's can get dropped easily and will hurt against you.

My suggestion is to look at the formations such as sky blight and the such, as I've seen them being used in competition, and provide a bit more flexibility then just straight double CAD flyrant lists.

Thanks for the advice. Very helpful.

I reworked my list. But I probably do need to get some gaunts to use as screens, oh and I'm kind of interested in the Skytyrant swarm, so add gargoyles to the list of models I want.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 nidhunter wrote:
Hi LemanRuse!

Definitely agree with Don_Keyballs on most of those points, and here are some other inputs:
- DLeaper really doesn't seem worth it when some lictors could do very similar things (i.e. Pheromone Trail and not take up an HQ slot)

- Depending on your game type (Kill Points, TacObj, etc...) you may also want to squad up on the Zoanthropes or others (helps FOC and makes the FnP psychic power much more bang for its buck )

- Personally I almost never run Tyrannofexes: I just find that with our already crowded Heavy Support slots it is usually not worth it (MIGHT be viable if you exchange the Rupture cannon for the Assault 20 Str. 3 Ap5 shots or keep the E-shock grubs with the template option to have a double template monstrosity)

- With those CC Carnifexes, and even the Tyrannofexes, cover is essential. Slogging them in from your deployment zone to CC range is akin to suicide, especially if the play style run will be "overwhelm them with everything at once" when that may just be a tactical folly on the beginning turns of the game. With all the Str.6+ and Ap3- in the game, they are targets and surprisingly squishy. Either find the points to screen them with gribblies or, even better, get some Venomthropes or Malanthropes for some porta-Shrouded.

- Back to the Carnifexes, Don makes a good point and while the Cfex is great at anti armor, it is atrocious against masses of models. I prefer to run my Cfexes with 2 TL Devs just for that added firepower. With Str. 9 (and without good CC weapons.... Crushing Claws strewn dejectedly into the bin of "do not want" ) they are already pretty solid in the CC arena . Though, with all the TL Dev Flyrants you have, shooting may not be your number one priority ... I digress.

- Lastly I would make sure you knew that your math is a little off.... [1190] + [760] = 1950.... you may be gimping yourself 45 points!!!

Well that's about it.... and of course there are some things I haven't pointed out in lieu of "forcing" my play-style onto you, but all-in-all decent for a late game obj denial/ obj grabbing army. You can never have enough Flyrant

Thanks again for the comments.

Yeah, I love that flyrant spam.

Being new to the nids, I was surprised to see that the competitive (I don't know if that is the right word to use) builds involve heavy shooting. That just seems strange to me, but luckily I have a ton of models to work with.

At this point, I'm just trying to find the lay of the land. I only have a couple of games under my belt with the nids. I am 1-1, a loss against Eldar (the previous codex, not the current jetbike nightmare) and a win against Chaos SM. Both were friendly games (Beer and pretzel), but still pretty competitive nevertheless. Friends or not, the guys I game with play to win, which I don't mind for the most part.

This does not look bad. Some things are "style" I personally would want to toss in some Hormagaunts for "screen" functions. If you lose a Tyrannofex, you can split out a Carnafex, or you can trim one Carnafex and that frees up a big chunk of points. Leviathan is dang nice, but you do lose Objective Secured, so if that becomes an "issue" you can convert to CAD, plus Formation.

Good luck, and welcome to the Hive Mind!

I second adding some screening terms or horms. I've never been a fan of ripper swarms. By dropping the rippers, one carnifex, and one zoanthrope you would have 335 points to play with. That could give you 3 squads of 20 horms, or 5 squads of 15 terms. Think about what an additional 60 or 80 bodies could do. They would screen your heavy hitters, could hold objectives better than a few ripper swarms, and tie up your opponent's units.

Just my 2 cents. I am always a quantity over quality kind of guy.