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Spiritlink: Whenever Eldrad Ulthran successfully passes a psychic test, roll a D6. On a score of 5 or 6, he immediately generates a Warp Charge point.

How does this work while Eldrad is part of a unit? Does his Spiritlink ability only work while he is solo? Or since psyker units cast powers as a unit, does any spell being cast by that unit benefit from Eldrad's Spiritlink ability?

Similarly:

The Spirit Stone of Anath'Lan: Every Time the bearer of the Spiritstone of Anath'lan attempts to manifest a psychic power, he can choose to reduce the Warp Charge cost by 1. If he does so, he cannot use his rune armour's invulnerable save until the start of his next turn

If a Farseer with this item is in a unit, do all spells cast by that unit benefit from this effect? If so, then would that remove the invulnerable save from the unit?

If you're treating Eldrad or a Farseer and their accompanying unit as a single psyker unit, the game breaks at the start of the psychic phase, so neither of these is an issue.

Can I get a HIWPI then? I honestly have no idea how to handle it and am very open to suggestions. I'm curious what the common method is.

HIWPI is that each psyker or Brotherhood unit is treated as a separate psyker unit for resolving the psychic phase (because that way, the psychic rules actually function), and so the answers for your questions become:

- only affects Eldrad himself
and
- only affects the Farseer.

Bojazz wrote:
Can I get a HIWPI then? I honestly have no idea how to handle it and am very open to suggestions. I'm curious what the common method is.

Why would either of them affect the unit? Both explicitly mention the model (by name, in Eldrad's case, or "the bearer" in the case of the Stone) rather than unit.

When he's part of a unit, Eldrad is not a "unit called Edlrad Ulthran", but he is still undeniably a model called Eldrad Ulthran, and so benefits from Spirit Link. But the unit he has joined, as they are not "Eldrad Ulthran", and the IC rules specify that an IC's special rules do not automatically transfer to the unit.

 Quanar wrote:
Why would either of them affect the unit? Both explicitly mention the model (by name, in Eldrad's case, or "the bearer" in the case of the Stone) rather than unit.

When he's part of a unit, Eldrad is not a "unit called Edlrad Ulthran", but he is still undeniably a model called Eldrad Ulthran, and so benefits from Spirit Link. But the unit he has joined, as they are not "Eldrad Ulthran", and the IC rules specify that an IC's special rules do not automatically transfer to the unit.

The thing is, by RAW, if Eldrad is joined to a unit, he never casts powers himself... the unit does.


Assuming you get past the part where you have to determine the unit's mastery level, and can't...


Hence the need for a HYWPI answer on this one instead.

So basically revert to 6th edition psyker rules while keeping 7th edition's psychic phase then. That would definitely make things simpler, and able to work at all. I'll run it by my opponents and see what they think.

If anyone else has any HIWPIs that their group commonly uses I'd be interested in some alternatives, just so I can present some options. If not, Insaniak's method does seem to be rather effective.

The book says "Psyker unit" all throughout the psychic phase stuff. Meaning, the thing generating the psychic powers.

Are you really unable to figure out where Eldrad falls in that spectrum? This seems like one of the most straightforward rules I've encountered.

I don't think you're seeing the conundrum here.

The "psyker unit" in question is a unit containing a farseer, a warlock conclave, and eldrad. Since the "psyker unit" casts a spell that is known to it, That means that the unit as a whole can cast powers that any model in that unit knows. The problem comes from how to resolve casting powers when different models in the unit have different abilities when casting powers.

When eldrad is alone, he is casting the power. that's easy to figure out. When eldrad is in a unit, the UNIT is casting the power. Does that mean eldrad is casting the power? so would he get to use spiritlink? Even if the power was a warlock power? Would this also mean that the farseer is ALSO casting the power? so would he also get to use his spirit stone of anathlan? There are no rules to handle this situation.

Furthermore, what if a farseer from a CAD joins a seer council? You now have a model that harnesses warp charge points on a 4+ in a unit that harnesses warp charge points on a 3+, and they're all casting powers as a single psyker unit. It's impossible to resolve, and I'm looking for how people would handle it.

Insaniak's method of reverting to 6th edition psyker rules while keeping 7th edition's psychic phase would resolve all of these issues, and seems like the best option so far. I'm still open to other suggestions though.

The warlocks generate and cast their powers. Eldrad generates and casts his powers.

I don't see the conundrum here because there isn't one, maybe.

What you just said is the same as Insaniak's house rule to revert to 6th edition and treat each psyker/brotherhood as their own unit for the psychic phase. It is not RAW, but it seems like the best option.

 SRSFACE wrote:
The warlocks generate and cast their powers. Eldrad generates and casts his powers.
.

While that's how it's commonly played (as per my HIWPI answer) it's not actually how the rules are written.

Psychic powers are cast by psyker units, not individual models. Eldrad, a Farseer and a squad all joined together are a single unit.

Is a psyker unit the same thing as a unit? I guess I've always taken it to mean "the thing generating the powers" like 6th would have it, rather than "a unit" like a Conclave being joined by Eldrad.

Would be worlds better if they said "psychic model" instead of "unit." Only thing that'd potentially get in the way of that wording works itself out in it's own rules in Brotherhood of Psychics.

So you're right, I guess it's not strict RAW. I guess I should have just said I'd play it like Insaniak. Seems to be how most people I've met in person handle the psychic stuff, too, so I doubt you'd get a lot of push back for houseruling it that way amongst your peers.

Bojazz wrote:
Insaniak's method of reverting to 6th edition psyker rules while keeping 7th edition's psychic phase would resolve all of these issues, and seems like the best option so far. I'm still open to other suggestions though.

Insaniak's house-rule is so prevalent, I don't think I've ever had an opponent even question it in the entirety of 7th (with the caveat that one power cannot be cast more than once by the same unit).

Strict RAW, generating warp charges is confusing (does a WC3 IC joined to a WC2 unit generate 2, 3 or 5 charges? We're given permission to add different units, but not total the unit itself), an IC Peril-ing in a unit of Brotherhood of Psykers causes the perils to happen to a Brotherhood model rather than the Psyker who cast it, but if two Psyker IC's in a non-Brotherhood unit Perils, we don't know how to allocate the Perils to at all. We can also measure ranges and LoS for Witchfires from non-Psyker models in a combined unit.

 SRSFACE wrote:
Is a psyker unit the same thing as a unit?

As defined by the rulebook, right at the start of the psychic phase rules, a 'psyker unit' is a unit with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot, or 'Brotherhood of ...' rule.

 insaniak wrote:

 SRSFACE wrote:
Is a psyker unit the same thing as a unit?

As defined by the rulebook, right at the start of the psychic phase rules, a 'psyker unit' is a unit with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot, or 'Brotherhood of ...' rule.

The first issue being no unit ever has any of those USRs as models have USRs not units...

So yes the Psychic rules are irreparably broken RaW. The only way to make them work at all is Insaniak's interpretation. We play that a Unit can manifest the same power twice as long as it is from 2 different Psykers as that is most consistent with how we treat "psyker unit". I've seen it played both ways.

Awesome, thanks for all your help guys. You'd think I'd have a handle on the psychic phase this far into 7th, but to be honest I've just never bothered with a seer council before as I haven't had the models painted and my main opponents were Tau/Necrons. Now with craftworlds requiring them in the core formations I figured I'd give them a try, only to find this crazy broken system. Thanks again!

 SRSFACE wrote:

Would be worlds better if they said "psychic model" instead of "unit." Only thing that'd potentially get in the way of that wording works itself out in it's own rules in Brotherhood of Psychics.

This. This entire thing is all due to sloppy use of the word "Unit", when I firmly believe they were referring to the "model", except in the case of brotherhood of psyker/sorcerors. If this 1 word was errata'd to say model instead of unit, the entire system works beautifully. It doesn't even break brotherhood units, because the brotherhood of psykers/sorcerors USR spells out how they work differently. Would probably have to still add a line that ICs joining a brotherhood of psykers unit still maintain their own ML and powers.

Psyker Unit is not the issue, it is that Psyker unit refers to a unit with USRs, what name they give it is irrelevant, it could be Psyker Formation, Psyker Detachment, Psyker Army, the issue is it should refer to a model with the Psyker or Brotherhood of Psykers USR. Then BoP needs to explain that all models in a unit with this USR act as 1 Psyker unit, though the manifested power comes from 1 psyker.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Psyker Unit is not the issue, it is that Psyker unit refers to a unit with USRs, what name they give it is irrelevant, it could be Psyker Formation, Psyker Detachment, Psyker Army, the issue is it should refer to a model with the Psyker or Brotherhood of Psykers USR. Then BoP needs to explain that all models in a unit with this USR act as 1 Psyker unit, though the manifested power comes from 1 psyker.

But they don't act as 1 psyker unit, because they have multiple different mastery levels, and access to different powers on a model by model basis. The whole unit doesn't get access to all powers each model knows.

GW uses Unit to refer to both Models and Unit, with no clear idea which is which. It's maddening.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Psyker Unit is not the issue, it is that Psyker unit refers to a unit with USRs, what name they give it is irrelevant, it could be Psyker Formation, Psyker Detachment, Psyker Army, the issue is it should refer to a model with the Psyker or Brotherhood of Psykers USR. Then BoP needs to explain that all models in a unit with this USR act as 1 Psyker unit, though the manifested power comes from 1 psyker.

But they don't act as 1 psyker unit, because they have multiple different mastery levels, and access to different powers on a model by model basis. The whole unit doesn't get access to all powers each model knows.

Well currently that is how the rules are worded. What I was suggesting is make all Brotherhood of Psykers in a unit act as 1 psyker unit and make all Psykers act as separate Psyker Units. Which makes much more sense.

 FlingitNow wrote:

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Psyker Unit is not the issue, it is that Psyker unit refers to a unit with USRs, what name they give it is irrelevant, it could be Psyker Formation, Psyker Detachment, Psyker Army, the issue is it should refer to a model with the Psyker or Brotherhood of Psykers USR. Then BoP needs to explain that all models in a unit with this USR act as 1 Psyker unit, though the manifested power comes from 1 psyker.

But they don't act as 1 psyker unit, because they have multiple different mastery levels, and access to different powers on a model by model basis. The whole unit doesn't get access to all powers each model knows.

Well currently that is how the rules are worded. What I was suggesting is make all Brotherhood of Psykers in a unit act as 1 psyker unit and make all Psykers act as separate Psyker Units. Which makes much more sense.

Agreed, and I believe that's how it was intended to be.