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What happens a model stands directly behind a barricade/wall and shoot? I can't find the rule (if any) for this. Look at this example:




(i) If ork 5 shoots against marines 2 and 3, they have a 4+ cover save. Does marine 1 also get this cover save? (I think it should as it is 25 % obscured by the wall from the ork's POV.)

(ii) Let's say marine 3 shoots at ork 5. Does ork 5 get the 4+ cover save?

(iii) Marine 2 shoots at ork 5. Does ork 5 get the 4+ cover save?

(iv) Marine 3 shoots at ork 4. Does ork 5 get the 4+ cover save?

Basically, this boils down to two issues. The first is, what counts as being "behind" the barricade? Is it enough that the barricade is between the shooter and the target? Or is it the 25 % rule that applies? Second, does this also apply when the shooter is in direct base contact with the barricade (marine 3), or in contact with another model that is in contact with the barricade (marine 2)?

Is it as simple as LOS, i.e. that marine 3 in this case has a clear view of ork 5 (but not ork 4)? Or are there any special rules that come into play?

I really don't know of anything in the BRB that goes into this level of detail, so it's largely discussing with your opponent or houseruling, as that's what I've done. Maybe I'm missing something in the book, but here's how I would play it:

If the orks shoot right now, the marines would get 2 guys that are in cover. After those two die, the remainder of the squad won't get a cover save. This is only because there's an ork near the cover.

If you only have ork 5 shooting, the entire marine squad gets cover.

If the marines fire at the orks, the orks will count as having one guy get the cover. Roll one at a time, once he dies they lose cover. This is only because marines 2 and 3 are next to the cover.

If it's just 1 shooting 5, or 5 shooting 1, they both get full cover.

This is only how I play it, not sure of the official rules. We generally play if you're within 2" of cover you get to use that cover. If you're further than 2" away, you only get that cover if your opponent is also outside of the 2" range.

Again, this is just how we work it out logic wise. Couldn't find specific for how this works, so we just sort of houserule it. And this is sort of how the rules base it, it's just that the rules do a poor job explaining what happens if both models could theoretically use the cover.

EDIT: alternatively, I've seen it simply played for convenience sake that both squad benefit from full cover, although I disagree with this method.

For LoS based cover, it doesn't matter how far the model is from the terrain/unit granting the cover as long as its blocking. That marine could be 1,000,000 miles away, if he's still 25% blocked he gets the cover save. So from that angle he most likely does have a cover save.

The only way to answer the question is to get down and see if the model is 25% obscured from the shooter's perspective.

My gut reaction from looking at your picture is that Ork 5 wouldn't get the cover from Marine 3, but possibly against the other marines he would. Everyone else would get the cover.

Cover is determined by los from the firing unit, so we can't really answer your questions.

That said, in older editions a model touching or within an inch or so of a piece of cover ignored tha cover when shooting, you could discuss that as a houserules

I guess it's that older rule that I'm looking for. Haven't been in this for 20+ years

Thanks for all replies!

To compicate things further, what if an AM/IG heavy weapone team was right against the wall, they still have no line of sight at all so can't fire?

Maj.Lee Scrude wrote:
To compicate things further, what if an AM/IG heavy weapone team was right against the wall, they still have no line of sight at all so can't fire?

That is definitely a possibility, given the model's are kneeling. But again it comes down to what the model actually see.

Cover is based on if the models firing can see. Take note on the _models_ _firing_, if those two are not in the same unit, or not FIRING THE SAME TYPE OF WEAPON so that it makes 2 different wound pools, like a stormbolter and a plasma gun, then they only see what they themselves are seeing. This is troublesome with flamers since usually they have their own wound pool and will often only wound what they themselves can see.

What they can see is based on their bodies, head, arms, legs and torso, not banners and weapons.

pinkmarine wrote:
What happens a model stands directly behind a barricade/wall and shoot? I can't find the rule (if any) for this. Look at this example:




(i) If ork 5 shoots against marines 2 and 3, they have a 4+ cover save. Does marine 1 also get this cover save? (I think it should as it is 25 % obscured by the wall from the ork's POV.)

(ii) Let's say marine 3 shoots at ork 5. Does ork 5 get the 4+ cover save?

(iii) Marine 2 shoots at ork 5. Does ork 5 get the 4+ cover save?

(iv) Marine 3 shoots at ork 4. Does ork 5 get the 4+ cover save?

Basically, this boils down to two issues. The first is, what counts as being "behind" the barricade? Is it enough that the barricade is between the shooter and the target? Or is it the 25 % rule that applies? Second, does this also apply when the shooter is in direct base contact with the barricade (marine 3), or in contact with another model that is in contact with the barricade (marine 2)?

Is it as simple as LOS, i.e. that marine 3 in this case has a clear view of ork 5 (but not ork 4)? Or are there any special rules that come into play?

It is indeed done by LoS, so at a glance:
(i) Yes Marine gets cover save

(ii) No, Ork does not get cover (the marine can "see" all of the Ork over the barricade)

(iii) From the "eyes" of marine 2, can he see all of the ork? (it looks like a "no" > Ork gets cover)

(iv) Same as (iii): from the picture it looks like marine 3 can see all of the ork, so Ork does not get cover.

BlackTalos, remember that, for (iii), it is not just the eyes anymore, you can draw LoS from any part of the firing model.

Woah, didnt know that. So lets say you had a gretchin behind a wall and his eyes coulnt see over that wall but say his arm was in the air. He can still shoot?

 DeathReaper wrote:
BlackTalos, remember that, for (iii), it is not just the eyes anymore, you can draw LoS from any part of the firing model.

Indeed, "from its body (the head, torso, arms or legs)".

I would still, at a guess, say that (iii) gives cover to the Ork, but cannot specifically tell from only this picture.

 Ratius wrote:
Woah, didnt know that. So lets say you had a gretchin behind a wall and his eyes coulnt see over that wall but say his arm was in the air. He can still shoot?

If you can draw Line of Sight from any part of the body of the firing model to the target, you can shoot at the target, as per the General Principles chapter, Line of Sight section, 2nd graph 1st sentence.