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Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

I don't know wherever this applies in other circumstances but I'm referring to the Vindicare's Turbo-Penetrator ammunition.

It states that "one shot inflicts D3 wounds instead of one".

My question is when does 1 wound multiply? I fire the single shot, and as I can see it can be interpreted in a number of ways:

1: One shot hits, and D3 to-wound rolls are made.
2: One shot hits, a single to-wound roll is made, and the target takes D3 saves
3: One shot hits, a single to-wound roll is made, the target takes a single save, taking D3 wounds if failed.

Which one is correct?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/02 23:43:18


 
   
Made in us
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair






Turbo penetrator is poorly worded. Inflicts d3 wounds would be roll to hit then roll d3, that many wounds simply happen (no need to roll to wound) then each is saved against individually.

Since it is related rad carbines on the skitarii do similar on a 6 to wound there are 2 wounds on the target that are saved and allocated separately (this rule specifically states this).

And D weapons are the same as penetrators.

This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.



 
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

So in that case it'd be the 1st option in the OP, but with the bonus of automatically wounding?
   
Made in us
World-Weary Pathfinder




 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Turbo penetrator is poorly worded. Inflicts d3 wounds would be roll to hit then roll d3, that many wounds simply happen (no need to roll to wound) then each is saved against individually.

Since it is related rad carbines on the skitarii do similar on a 6 to wound there are 2 wounds on the target that are saved and allocated separately (this rule specifically states this).

And D weapons are the same as penetrators.


While I agree with you...there are a lot of people that scream that you save D-hits, instead of "wounds" in the process, and make 1 save to stop all wounds. The same argument would apply here as well.
   
Made in nz
Warp-Screaming Noise Marine





Auckland, New Zealand

"... instead of one."

Where you would normally inflict one wound at the end of the wounding process, here you inflict D3.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






A hit is converted to a wound by comparing the weapon's strength with the target's toughness on the to wound chart. Instead of converting to a single wound, the his is converted to D# wounds. Since its the chart comparison that converts the hit I believe we are past 'rolling to wound' part of the processes. So I would go with option 2.

I do not believe the wounds are automatic though. You still need to roll to wound.
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

Added a poll to get a better idea of the thoughts towards this.
   
Made in ca
Junior Officer with Laspistol





London, Ontario

My interpretation would be that normally, a single wound is suffered after failing saves / FNP / RP. So you make a single to hit, wound, save, and if the save is failed, instead of taking a single wound you would take d3.
   
Made in ca
Lieutenant Colonel






you convert *unsaved* wounds to d3 wounds

hence why you hit, roll to wound, roll saves, then those unsaved wounds inflict d3 wounds.

 
   
Made in us
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair






No. You do not convert an unsaved wound to d3, nor do you have to roll to wound.

D3 wounds are inflicted from the shot. Technically you do not even have to roll to hit since your ranged attacks make shots and a shot inflicts d3 wounds automatically.

I added the roll to hit as rai to comply with the deadshot special rule(as a shot simply inflicting d3 wounds would not qualify for deadshot and cause other issues)

The other 2 bullets specify wounds inflicted(shield breaker) or change the to wound roll(hellfire).


This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.



 
   
Made in au
Screaming Shining Spear





Western Australia

You don't inflict wounds until after saves.

In this case, option 3 is correct - D weapons are exactly the same save for the fact that we roll the D chart rather than to wound and on results 2-6 we are to,d the wound automatically.

It's only when we come to inflicting (applying) the results of the shot does it multiply to D3 or other

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Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





 Kommissar Kel wrote:
No. You do not convert an unsaved wound to d3, nor do you have to roll to wound.

D3 wounds are inflicted from the shot. Technically you do not even have to roll to hit since your ranged attacks make shots and a shot inflicts d3 wounds automatically.

I added the roll to hit as rai to comply with the deadshot special rule(as a shot simply inflicting d3 wounds would not qualify for deadshot and cause other issues)

The other 2 bullets specify wounds inflicted(shield breaker) or change the to wound roll(hellfire).

Why would they give you a bullet that wounds on a 2+ if you also have a bullet that does d3 wounds without rolling to wound?
   
Made in us
Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot







 Kommissar Kel wrote:
No. You do not convert an unsaved wound to d3, nor do you have to roll to wound.

D3 wounds are inflicted from the shot. Technically you do not even have to roll to hit since your ranged attacks make shots and a shot inflicts d3 wounds automatically.

I added the roll to hit as rai to comply with the deadshot special rule(as a shot simply inflicting d3 wounds would not qualify for deadshot and cause other issues)

The other 2 bullets specify wounds inflicted(shield breaker) or change the to wound roll(hellfire).


This is 100% incorrect. You are wrong on both accounts:

You do not automatically get d3 rolls. you still have to roll to wound lol. Otherwise what would be the point of the other round which wounds on a 2+?

You do the save first and THEN if a wound goes through you take D3 wounds

This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2015/05/03 16:36:20


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Made in gb
Confessor Of Sins





Newton Aycliffe

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
No. You do not convert an unsaved wound to d3, nor do you have to roll to wound.

D3 wounds are inflicted from the shot. Technically you do not even have to roll to hit since your ranged attacks make shots and a shot inflicts d3 wounds automatically.

I added the roll to hit as rai to comply with the deadshot special rule(as a shot simply inflicting d3 wounds would not qualify for deadshot and cause other issues)

The other 2 bullets specify wounds inflicted(shield breaker) or change the to wound roll(hellfire).


This is 100% incorrect. You are wrong on both accounts:

You do not automatically get d3 rolls. you still have to roll to wound lol. Otherwise what would be the point of the other round which wounds on a 2+?

You do the save first and THEN if a wound goes through you take D3 wounds


Does anyone have the full wording for the Turbo-penetrator rounds rather than just "one shot inflicts D3 wounds instead of one"?

It is all in the wording of the rule.
D-Weapons clearly replace the amount of Wounds deducted:
 BlackTalos wrote:
Indeed, just to clarify what has already been said, you must have read this section:
Non-vehicle - Seriously Wounded: The model suffers a hit that wounds automatically and causes it to lose D3 Wounds instead of 1.


The coloured text is a special effect that happens outside of the "Allocate Wound" of the Shooting sequence, which the underlined follows.

Also, in the "normal sequence" we have this:
Take Saves & Remove Casualties
The model gets to make a saving throw, if it has one. If it fails, reduce that model’s Wounds by 1. If the model is reduced to 0 Wounds, remove it as a casualty.

Can you see the underlined above? This is the RaW that D-Weapons modify.

As such, i would modify your summary:

Normal:
Hit
Roll to Wound
Allocate Wounds
Save Wounds
Reduce Wounds by 1
Remove Casualties (Optional)

D-Weapons:
Hit "model suffers a hit"
Roll to Wound "that wounds automatically"
Allocate Wounds Allocate "Seriously Wounded" or "Deathblow" Wounds
Save Wounds Take your save against the "Seriously Wounded" Wound
Reduce Wounds by 1 "causes it to lose D3 Wounds instead of 1"
Remove Casualties (Optional)

But this is only because of the wording:
"causes it to lose D3 Wounds instead of 1"

"one shot inflicts D3 wounds instead of one" Sounds different to me: 3 Saves to be rolled. But again, we need the full rule for this...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Okay, so if the data-slate is identical to the White Dwarf copy:
"Against all other targets, shots from a turbo-penetrator round inflict D3 Wounds, rather than just 1"


So in this case, it applies at the Wound allocating step, not the wound removal step.

As such, in opposition to D-Weapons, it would seem that a Turbo-penetrator round "inflicts D3 Wounds", which you have to allocate and save separately.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/04 12:27:32


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Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass. 
   
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 BlackTalos wrote:

Okay, so if the data-slate is identical to the White Dwarf copy:
"Against all other targets, shots from a turbo-penetrator round inflict D3 Wounds, rather than just 1"


So in this case, it applies at the Wound allocating step, not the wound removal step.

As such, in opposition to D-Weapons, it would seem that a Turbo-penetrator round "inflicts D3 Wounds", which you have to allocate and save separately.

So the real question then, at what point do you roll to wound? Because you most certainly must roll to wound, otherwise the poison 2+ round would be pointless.

Do you roll to hit, roll a 4+ to wound, and then it inflicts D3 wounds that need to be saved separately?

Or do you roll to hit, roll D3 wounds, roll to wound separately, then save separately?

I just can't picture that it automatically causes D3 wounds without a to wound of 4+ in there somewhere, or the whole idea of the round that wounds on a 2+ was an utter blunder on the side of GW (which of course, you know, is always possible).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Further, while you will need to save the potentially 3 wounds separately, can the wounds spill over to other models? Can you kill 3 guys with 1 shot?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
We should just make the turbo penetrator shot be a beam weapon if it's used against infantry....

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/05/04 12:56:54


 
   
Made in us
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Nashville, TN

Weapons that cause multiple wounds have always caused them after the normal process of "to-hit, to-wound, failed save-> roll for amount of wounds".

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Newton Aycliffe

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Weapons that cause multiple wounds have always caused them after the normal process of "to-hit, to-wound, failed save-> roll for amount of wounds".


I don't have enough information on the Turbo-penetrator round to say that this is a certainty. From the limited info i got above, i'd say "possibly"...

 kingbobbito wrote:
 BlackTalos wrote:

Okay, so if the data-slate is identical to the White Dwarf copy:
"Against all other targets, shots from a turbo-penetrator round inflict D3 Wounds, rather than just 1"


So in this case, it applies at the Wound allocating step, not the wound removal step.

As such, in opposition to D-Weapons, it would seem that a Turbo-penetrator round "inflicts D3 Wounds", which you have to allocate and save separately.

So the real question then, at what point do you roll to wound? Because you most certainly must roll to wound, otherwise the poison 2+ round would be pointless.

Do you roll to hit, roll a 4+ to wound, and then it inflicts D3 wounds that need to be saved separately?

Or do you roll to hit, roll D3 wounds, roll to wound separately, then save separately?

I just can't picture that it automatically causes D3 wounds without a to wound of 4+ in there somewhere, or the whole idea of the round that wounds on a 2+ was an utter blunder on the side of GW (which of course, you know, is always possible).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Further, while you will need to save the potentially 3 wounds separately, can the wounds spill over to other models? Can you kill 3 guys with 1 shot?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
We should just make the turbo penetrator shot be a beam weapon if it's used against infantry....


Thing is, looking for definitions of "Inflict" a Wound in the BrB, i get this:
Wound Pool, Assault phase wrote:If there are Wounds with different Strengths, AP values or special rules that affect saving throws or the effect of any Wounds they inflict, split them into several pools of Wounds.
Which would lead me to think "Inflicting Wounds" = Allocate Wounds.
Any attack that normally inflicts Instant Death or says that the target model is removed from play inflicts D3 Wounds on a Gargantuan Creature or Flying Gargantuan Creature instead.

Instinctively i would say this is after saves, but looking at it, it does not say. It would depend on whether ID is applied before or after Saves.
Challenge wrote:If a character that is involved in a challenge slays his opponent, each excess Wound inflicted by the victor is then allocated, one at a time, to the next nearest enemy model that is locked in the combat.
Again, this seems to point at the "Inflict" wording being before saves are rolled.

D-weapons wrote:Multiple Wounds/Hull Points inflicted by a Destroyer hit do not carry over to other models in the unit (any excess are lost)

Redundant clarification? (I am certain that the "Multiple Wounds/Hull Points inflicted" in this case are after Saves, but would they clarify this due to a secondary meaning of "inflicted" in this case?)
Wounds inflicted by template weapons are allocated following the normal rules.
Again, before saves.


Now regarding how the weapon would roll To Wound, i would really need a full version of the RaW or you will have to wait until i get my White Dwarf again (much later). But in the case of the Wounds inflicted, it is 3 Wounds to allocate, and yes, possibly 3 models to slay.....
That's what the RaW seem to say, but why not go HYWPI?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/04 13:59:44


DA:80-S+G+M+B++I-Pw40k01++D+++A+++WD100R++T(T)DM+
Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage.
Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass. 
   
Made in us
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair






Black talos, most of those definitions with inflict are exactly the opposite of your claims; i will go through them now:

Wound pool in assault phase: that line is talking about special effects of the weapon on wounds they inflict for beung a separate wound pool.
That makes that inflict post to-wound and failed save.

Gc and id/rfp: that inflict is very much a straight remove those wounds, you had already been wounded by the attack and failed relevant saves to have the id or rfp effect inflicted.

Characters in a challenge; all your attacks have been made against your opponent simultaneously, then you have made all your to wound rolls, then your opponent starts making saves, when he dies the remaining saves go to the unit. Those wounds are inflicted, you do not have to roll to wound on the unit again.

At this point you have already lost track of what you are trying to argue and you have moved to inflicted wounds are added to the wound pool but now you are arguing about before or after saves.

An inflicted wound is a wound caused; there is no need to roll to wound when a rule says it inflicts a wound.

This rule says it inflicts d3 wounds for every shot, therefore those d3 wounds are automatic.


This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.



 
   
Made in gb
Confessor Of Sins





Newton Aycliffe

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Black talos, most of those definitions with inflict are exactly the opposite of your claims; i will go through them now:

Wound pool in assault phase: that line is talking about special effects of the weapon on wounds they inflict for beung a separate wound pool.
That makes that inflict post to-wound and failed save.

Incorrect: Wound pools are made before Wounds are allocated and saved. Post To Wound, yes, but not post-save.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Gc and id/rfp: that inflict is very much a straight remove those wounds, you had already been wounded by the attack and failed relevant saves to have the id or rfp effect inflicted.
That is indeed what I said, so my post was not incorrect either.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Characters in a challenge; all your attacks have been made against your opponent simultaneously, then you have made all your to wound rolls, then your opponent starts making saves, when he dies the remaining saves go to the unit. Those wounds are inflicted, you do not have to roll to wound on the unit again.
I never mentioned it was before To Wound.
I am just saying it is before saves, as you have indeed confirmed above.
So again, i'm not sure what you are reading here as "exact opposite"?

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
At this point you have already lost track of what you are trying to argue and you have moved to inflicted wounds are added to the wound pool but now you are arguing about before or after saves.

An inflicted wound is a wound caused; there is no need to roll to wound when a rule says it inflicts a wound.

This rule says it inflicts d3 wounds for every shot, therefore those d3 wounds are automatic.


And indeed this is the Case for Turbo-penetrator rounds. I'm glad we agree that 3 Wounds are inflicted, all of which have to be rolled for (saved) separately.

A) I was unsure about this until i got the full rule, which seems to point at what we are agreeing on

B) This is clearly not how D-Weapons work, as you incorrectly asserted:
 Kommissar Kel wrote:
And D weapons are the same as penetrators.




DA:80-S+G+M+B++I-Pw40k01++D+++A+++WD100R++T(T)DM+
Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage.
Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass. 
   
Made in us
Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot






Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Black talos, most of those definitions with inflict are exactly the opposite of your claims; i will go through them now:

Wound pool in assault phase: that line is talking about special effects of the weapon on wounds they inflict for beung a separate wound pool.
That makes that inflict post to-wound and failed save.

Gc and id/rfp: that inflict is very much a straight remove those wounds, you had already been wounded by the attack and failed relevant saves to have the id or rfp effect inflicted.

Characters in a challenge; all your attacks have been made against your opponent simultaneously, then you have made all your to wound rolls, then your opponent starts making saves, when he dies the remaining saves go to the unit. Those wounds are inflicted, you do not have to roll to wound on the unit again.

At this point you have already lost track of what you are trying to argue and you have moved to inflicted wounds are added to the wound pool but now you are arguing about before or after saves.

An inflicted wound is a wound caused; there is no need to roll to wound when a rule says it inflicts a wound.

This rule says it inflicts d3 wounds for every shot, therefore those d3 wounds are automatic.



you are WRONG. what don't you understand about that. The 2 rounds you are talking about are "inflict d3 wounds" and "wound on a 2+". They would not give the option of wounding on a 2+ with one round if the other round automatically wounded and did d3 wounds. Use your head.

in fact, it is worded as "shots from turbo-penetrator rounds inflict D3 wounds, rather than just 1." RATHER THAN JUST 1. So does that mean all shots auto wound 1 wound? No, therefore you don't auto wound D3 wounds.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2015/05/04 15:34:01


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Yeah use your head indeed.

2 rounds, 2 different rules.

1 round has an effect that allows easier to wounds

The other round inflicts d3 wounds. Inflicted wounds are post-to wound process. The round has hit, the model takes an immediate d3 wounds to save against.

For your second bit, attacks normally cause 1 to wound roll apiece that can only inflict 1 wound on the model. This rule directly inflicts the wound and does d3 instead of 1. There is a comma it is a related but separate point.

Lets parse the sentece: the turbo penetrator round inflicts d3 wounds. The d3 wounds inflicted are instead of the 1 wound that could normally be inflicted. This is how a comma and English sentence structure works.

This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.



 
   
Made in us
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 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Yeah use your head indeed.

2 rounds, 2 different rules.

1 round has an effect that allows easier to wounds

The other round inflicts d3 wounds. Inflicted wounds are post-to wound process. The round has hit, the model takes an immediate d3 wounds to save against.

No. What don't you get about this? You're saying that one round is "easier to wound", but one round auto wounds. Why would they include one that's easier to wound AND one that auto wounds? When is "easier to wound" ever better than "auto wound"?

Turbo penetrator still needs to roll to wound, needing a 4+. There is no mention of automatically wounding under turbo penetrator.
   
Made in us
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 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Yeah use your head indeed.

2 rounds, 2 different rules.

1 round has an effect that allows easier to wounds

The other round inflicts d3 wounds. Inflicted wounds are post-to wound process. The round has hit, the model takes an immediate d3 wounds to save against.

For your second bit, attacks normally cause 1 to wound roll apiece that can only inflict 1 wound on the model. This rule directly inflicts the wound and does d3 instead of 1. There is a comma it is a related but separate point.

Lets parse the sentece: the turbo penetrator round inflicts d3 wounds. The d3 wounds inflicted are instead of the 1 wound that could normally be inflicted. This is how a comma and English sentence structure works.


Lol you just don't get it. You obviously use a vindicate assassin and refuse to admit that you have been using it illegally. just as the previous poster said and YOU YOURSELF JUST SAID. 1 round has an effect that allows easier wounds (2+), then how can you possibly say the other round AUTO wounds and does D3 lol.

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