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 iLLiTHiD wrote:
Out of curiosity, how powerful is Alpharius physically? There seems to be mention that he is the same size as regular marines to blend in. Would that mean he relies more on deception rather than direct application of force?

His discovery goes like this;

Horus flagship gets boarded by raiders whonsomehow managae to make it to the bridge. Horus turns and downs the first 4 with a single Bolt pistol shot each, but Alpharius dodges the rest, reaching Horus and then they all have a big laugh off because they realise rhey are the same.


As to whether he is weaker, doubt it. His rudles in HH are the closest we have to see him in a fight where he is generally on par, but overall he is a fierce strategist, not a fighter.



Girlyman did pretty decently in Betrayer. He was beating Lorgar (post-superpowering) before Angron jumped him and held his own against Angron for a good 3 or 4 pages whilst Angron was full on gakface crazy and in the process of hulking out into DP mode.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
At the peak of his power, he also held his own against the Lion and Girlyman- simultaneously. I don't think another Primarch has done such a thing.

Keep in mind, though, Rowboat was nearly killed by ten Alpha Legionnaires. He clearly belongs in the bottom 5, at best.

Curze held his own for a short while, and then cut the fight short with his grenades. That doesn't really prove very much (except that he is tricky and cunning). He'd previously lost against just the Lion, so in all likelihood he would have lost against both the Lion and Guilliman.

Similarly, Guilliman held his own for a while against Lorgar and Angron - he just didn't have the luxury of the fight ending prematurely before a winner could be called.

tgjensen wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Although in terms of shear damage, Magnus can probably kill everyone by doing something like dumping the planet they're currently on into the warp.

Magnus "lacks feats" for anything on that scale.

He doesn't, however, "lack feats" for getting his butt handed to him by a non-psychic Primarch, in spite of all his supposed might.

So either way he is clearly out of the running for the top spot.

Leman Russ has and uses psychic powers in combat, Magnus wasn't giving his all (Lorgar says as much), Magnus was fighting the entire Space Wolf Legion and not just Russ, and Magnus was still dominating Russ for most of the fight.

Magnus is far and away the most powerful Primarch, discounting Horus with the full backing of Chaos.


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Bassline wrote:
In a single fight... one on one... russ that is role. Beat the others up and get them back into line.


In an endurance fight? Vulkan.... If your immortal that is one of the best weapons you can have.

Angron has already dominated Leman Russ in single combat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:


As far as pure combat potential goes, it's definitely Sanguinius in terms of raw power. I remember somebody calcing his flying speed in one book as hypersonic (based off the time it took him to fly the distance of a capital ship), meaning he's tossing hypersonic haymakers at people.

Normal Space Marines have the occasional book feat better than that.


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 daddyorchips wrote:

Russ beat Angron in a fight too, I am sure.

The opposite, actually.

A few minutes with Angron left Russ unable to walk unaided.

Angron ruled Russ because Russ was trying to keep him alive, Angron was trying to kill Russ. Big frakking difference.

Sanguinius was probably the best fighter amongst the Primarches until Horus got souped up.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Angron was trying to kill Russ.

There is no reason to assume this.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Angron was trying to kill Russ.

There is no reason to assume this.

That has been my impression of the fight.

I'm curious about something, why would the Emperor make Russ the executioner, when apparently he goes and gets beat all the time? Was it because the Emperor didn't think about him fighting other primarchs, since that's a bit lacking in foresight, and it still would've been better to have chosen a better fighter that could go and defeat the primarchs. Only decent excuse I can come up with would be he found Russ before the better fighters, but its pretty bold to make him the executioner without waiting for others first.

2BlackJack1 wrote:
I'm curious about something, why would the Emperor make Russ the executioner, when apparently he goes and gets beat all the time? Was it because the Emperor didn't think about him fighting other primarchs, since that's a bit lacking in foresight, and it still would've been better to have chosen a better fighter that could go and defeat the primarchs. Only decent excuse I can come up with would be he found Russ before the better fighters, but its pretty bold to make him the executioner without waiting for others first.

They were infused by Chaos by that time, and he broke the spine of of Magnus then Magnus got the favor from Tzeentch. So Russ is still awesome and still up there when it comes to fighting other primarches.

Also Russ could be controlled, not everyone of the primarches could be that. You have seen what happened to the sociopaths, they rebelled.

2BlackJack1 wrote:
I'm curious about something, why would the Emperor make Russ the executioner, when apparently he goes and gets beat all the time? Was it because the Emperor didn't think about him fighting other primarchs, since that's a bit lacking in foresight, and it still would've been better to have chosen a better fighter that could go and defeat the primarchs. Only decent excuse I can come up with would be he found Russ before the better fighters, but its pretty bold to make him the executioner without waiting for others first.

Have you considered that the Emperor did not, in fact, make Russ the executioner?

The emperor never called Russ his executioner thats something russ appointed himself as. More likely he was send to get magnus ( not kill him that was horus his doing) because they knew he was loyal.

Angron had russ crawling before him and made no move to attack, it was also russ not angron wo attacked first in that fight. Nothing to indicate angron was out to kill, he was actualy suprisingly calm.

Magnus was fighting a whole legion and Tzeench planned for this outcome. He also wasn't commited to the fight.

Not to sound to much like hating on russ i do believe he is in the top half of primarchs, yust not at the top.

2BlackJack1 wrote:
I'm curious about something, why would the Emperor make Russ the executioner, when apparently he goes and gets beat all the time? Was it because the Emperor didn't think about him fighting other primarchs, since that's a bit lacking in foresight, and it still would've been better to have chosen a better fighter that could go and defeat the primarchs. Only decent excuse I can come up with would be he found Russ before the better fighters, but its pretty bold to make him the executioner without waiting for others first.

Its explained in Prospero Burns. Whereas other legions might balk at the role, the SW know what needs to be done and their role, and take the role of the executioner because they are the ones who can, and so others don't have to basically.

Yes, it's more about the attitude of the Primarch and the legion. They are generals and commanders in charge of astonishing amounts of firepower; personal prowess counts for practically nothing. It doesn't matter whether Russ could kill Angron in personal combat, because he has battle barges that can do that from orbit if necessary. What matters is that, if he was given the order to do so, he wouldn't flinch or hesitate for even a second.

Even as a DA fanboy I can't help but point out that he dind't beat Russ fair and square; this is in the codex. They fight it out to a draw, at which point Russ gets a good laugh out of it, considers the fight over, and turns to walk away. At which point the Lion sucker punches him in a fit of angsty rage.

OP wanted us to include weapons IN ADDITION to psychic powers, not to the exclusion of them, but even so I'm not sure that Magnus' sorcery necessarily makes him the overall winner. Their respective abilities also all change over time. At the peak of their powers, though? It depends so much on the arena. If you just lock them one on one in a sealed chamber and have an ultimate cage match, oh man... I'd have to make a top three. Angron, Horus, and Sanguinius. Powerful weaponry can be just as good as sorcery in a one-on-one fight, and is sometimes more reliable. Russ is evenly matched with the Lion, and I don't see either as particular powerhouses of individual combat among other Primarchs; much of their value was in their leadership ability, whereas Sanguinius seems to be the most crazy OP of all the loyalists, Horus has insane amounts of Chaos power and was a good all-rounder before that(I mean, he was Warmaster), and Angron, well....

Angron.

In sheer skill with the blade? Id say Sanguinius or Fulgrim or maybe even Lion el Johnson come out on top.

In sheer power? Angron, Horus and Russ rival each other... But id go with Angron.. the bastard lifted a titan out of balance for christs sake...

Russ and Angron went at eachother once... Angron basically won the physical fight,.. while Russ took the moral victory...

But ill go with Sanguinius... because Horus felt insecure about him and Horus is bad.....ass

I know very little about the HH and the fluff of the IOM, BUT, it would seem that horus would win right? I mean this guy betrayed the entire IOM, and almost got away with it too if it wasn't for that meddling emperor.

He is empowered with the combined might of all the chaos gods, I might be wrong, so don't attack me pls.

Happy wargaming,

-Mikey

This is how this tourney ends: Horus(or Russ/Angron/whoever) stands victorious over his slain rival. Suddenly Corax srikes from the shadows, laying low the weary champion. Before he can take a moment to enjoy his victory Kurze slides his blades though this back, then tears out his throat. In the background Vulkan awakes, fully healed, and makes his way out of the arena while Kurze is distracted. Aplharius smiles as he watches the glory of what he orchestrated.

Amoras wrote:
The emperor never called Russ his executioner thats something russ appointed himself as. More likely he was send to get magnus ( not kill him that was horus his doing) because they knew he was loyal.

Angron had russ crawling before him and made no move to attack, it was also russ not angron wo attacked first in that fight. Nothing to indicate angron was out to kill, he was actualy suprisingly calm.

Magnus was fighting a whole legion and Tzeench planned for this outcome. He also wasn't commited to the fight.

Not to sound to much like hating on russ i do believe he is in the top half of primarchs, yust not at the top.

You also have to consider if some primarchs might be better at denying the witch than others. I get the impression that Khorne Supercharged Angron could ignore quite a few psychic attacks, as well as quasiKorne quasiPsyker sanguinus. I think that Magnus would have less of an advantage over them than say, Perturbo or Dorn or someone without any sort of magical defense whatsoever. Magnus is significant though as I feel he is the only one that could permanently kill Vulkan. Still I think it would be hard for him to get a good fix on and crush Sanguinus given his speed, precognition, and unparalleled fighting skills. I think in terms of feats he is the most impressive primarch. Especially if you consider him slaughtering his way through the Vengeful Spirit off the tail end of like 100 days of nonstop beatdown distributing where he was pwning deamon princes and greater demons left and right. To be that physically and spiritually exhausted and then still practically solo a freaking space hulk filled with power from ALL FOUR of the chaos gods is pretty baller.

1) Angron
2) Sanguinius
3) Horus
4)Lion El'Jonson
5) Konrad Curze ( might not be true ranking but space BatMan
6) Leman Russ
7) Magnus the Red ( I personally think he is the best in a fight.)
8) Jaghatai Khan
9) Corvus Cora
10) Fulgrim
11) Mortarion
12) Ferrus Manus
13) Vulkan ( #1 if you consider immorality but could be force in a stasis field by 1-5 or Magnus could use something magical.)
14) Rogal Dorn
15) Roboute Guilliman
16) Perturabo
17) Alpharius Omegon
18) Lorgar

Best I could do sorry if wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also with this "normal" space marine from ALPHA Legion could have been Omegon. So he was hurt but a primarch and 9 space marines.

 VulkanKiller wrote:
1) Angron
2) Sanguinius
3) Horus
4)Lion El'Jonson
5) Konrad Curze ( might not be true ranking but space BatMan
6) Leman Russ
7) Magnus the Red ( I personally think he is the best in a fight.)
8) Corvus Cora
9) Fulgrim
10) Mortarion
11) Ferrus Manus
12) Vulkan ( #1 if you consider immorality but could be force in a stasis field by 1-5 or Magnus could use something magical.)
13) Alpharius Omegon

Spoiler:

( in truth this is 2 separate people and very sneaky think you are fighting one then the other half back stabs)

14) Jaghatai Khan
15) Rogal Dorn
16) Roboute Guilliman
17)Perturabo
18) Lorgar

Best I could do sorry if wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also with this "normal" space marine from ALPHA Legion could have been Omegon. So he was hurt but a primarch and 9 space marines.

The Khan should be massively higher, and the Twins lower. Khan was an immense swordsman, and its a 1v1, Alpharius/Omegon were nothing special in melee.

 Deadshot wrote:

 VulkanKiller wrote:
1) Angron
2) Sanguinius
3) Horus
4)Lion El'Jonson
5) Konrad Curze ( might not be true ranking but space BatMan
6) Leman Russ
7) Magnus the Red ( I personally think he is the best in a fight.)
8) Corvus Cora
9) Fulgrim
10) Mortarion
11) Ferrus Manus
12) Vulkan ( #1 if you consider immorality but could be force in a stasis field by 1-5 or Magnus could use something magical.)
13) Alpharius Omegon

Spoiler:

( in truth this is 2 separate people and very sneaky think you are fighting one then the other half back stabs)

14) Jaghatai Khan
15) Rogal Dorn
16) Roboute Guilliman
17)Perturabo
18) Lorgar

Best I could do sorry if wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also with this "normal" space marine from ALPHA Legion could have been Omegon. So he was hurt but a primarch and 9 space marines.

The Khan should be massively higher, and the Twins lower. Khan was an immense swordsman, and its a 1v1, Alpharius/Omegon were nothing special in melee.

Sorry never read much about him but how higher I know little about him only all up to HH but that more of a general knowledg.

Initially I thought it would be Angron, but then I thought some more about it and came up with Sanguinius being the best fighter. He managed to defeat the best Bloodthirster Khorne had to offer and if he can defeat a raging monster like that, then he would have a good chance in defeating the reckless Angron with his skill and control. Plus if Sanguinius ever went into a berserk rage (it is hinted at in the Heresy books about him keeping it in check) then he would definitely give Angron a run for his money.

This is my order:

1.) Sanguinius
2.) Angron/Horus
3.) Russ/Lion
4.) Fulgrim
5.) Corax/Curze
6.) Jaghatai Khan

 Deadshot wrote:
Alpharius/Omegon were nothing special in melee.

Not disagreeing with you Deadshot but do we know this for sure? Do we have many examples of Alpharius getting in a fight with one of his brothers other than ol' green eyes on Eskrador after the Heresy. New fluff means that it might not have even been Alpharius, also might not have been him on Namatjira's ship facing that Lucifer Black.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Alpharius/Omegon were nothing special in melee.

Not disagreeing with you Deadshot but do we know this for sure? Do we have many examples of Alpharius getting in a fight with one of his brothers other than ol' green eyes on Eskrador after the Heresy. New fluff means that it might not have even been Alpharius, also might not have been him on Namatjira's ship facing that Lucifer Black.

Asides the fact we've never seen him fight another Primarch in a novel, the only things we have to go on are HH game stats, with I think have been pretty accurate in terms of their relation to fluff. Now, the only noted time Alpharius (maybe) fought another Primarch was against Guilliman where he maybe died. Assuming it was one of the Twins, and they did die, looking at other Primarchs to see RG's ranking. In Betrayer Guilliman was going well against powered up Lorgar but they werè evenly matched. Lorgar, even after powering up, was still pretty wimpy (Isstvaan he got beat with ease by Corax, most of his impressive feats are psychic feats). Angron beat Guilliman with ease. Guilliman would lose to any top 10 Primarch (Angron, Sang, Horus, Khan, Lion, Kurze, Russ, Fulgrim [which he did], Corax, Vulkan). Hence he must be at least 11 out of 17 or lower. Alpharius lost to him so he must be lower. Alpharius would likely lose to Mortarion, Dorn, Perturabo or Manus, as would Guilliman. By rough estimates that puts Guilliman and Lorgar joint 16, and Alpharius therefore dead last at 17. Note I'm excluding Magnus as he is a special case.

Now, even if it wasn't Alpharius that Guilliman fought, Alpharius obviously knew he wouldn't beat Guilliman so organised a dummy.



Now, going to HH stats, Guilliman's leaks put his as nothing special, and Alpharius is likewise more tactically advanced rather than melee like Angron is (WS9, can challenge any number of characters at once)

Your reasoning is sound, I just don't think that there is enough out there to pigeonhole Primarchs into an order when there's other things to take into consideration that could affect their standing. But if I were to place Alpharius it's likely that I would put him to the lower end myself as well, due to the lack of detail and the 'not really a fight 'with Guilliman.

I'd probably say Sanguinius is number one (short of Chaos Horus), he's in the top 3 for combat, psyker and strategy. None of the other primarchs are that consistently good IMO. Also he can fly.

I think its pretty safe to say Curze and Fulgrim have proved their the best at fighting Primarchs if thats what this is about. Curze beating Dorn half to death and Fulgrim slaying Manus.

Fulgrim has the highest Primarch kill-count (Kurze only sort of counts as 1), but neither were fair, given that he was powered up by the Laeran Blade and in Daemon form.

Didn't Kurze have a good go at Vulkan and Corax as well?

Taffy17 wrote:
Didn't Kurze have a good go at Vulkan and Corax as well?

He killed Vulkan, yeah, but Vulkan was tied up. It wasn't a fight. I don't count the numerous respawn kills either.

He didn't kill Corax either. In First Heretic;

Taffy17 wrote:

I think its pretty safe to say Curze and Fulgrim have proved their the best at fighting Primarchs if thats what this is about. Curze beating Dorn half to death and Fulgrim slaying Manus.

From what we know Curze likely surprise attacked Dorn. He may even have been armed (or he had really sharp nails). Considering the lack of information on the situation I do not believe it should be used as evidence.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Taffy17 wrote:
I think its pretty safe to say Curze and Fulgrim have proved their the best at fighting Primarchs if thats what this is about. Curze beating Dorn half to death and Fulgrim slaying Manus.

From what we know Curze likely surprise attacked Dorn. He may even have been armed (or he had really sharp nails). Considering the lack of information on the situation I do not believe it should be used as evidence.

I haven't read enough to be an expert, I just feel like Kurze has and would have a go at anyone without remorse and do pretty well