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 mortetvie wrote:
I wonder how Grav weapons compare to Destroyer weapons in terms of damage out-put. Does anyone have any numbers or a thread regarding that info?

Here's some very rough math.

About the only place they're on par is against W1 2+sv models. Units with a worse save, multiple wounds, or vehicles are increasingly more resistant to Grav than D.

Since they both ignore AV and T, the comparison seems at first easy, but the multi-wound nature of D weapons and the "insta-kill-no-saves" nature of 6's on D's makes it a bit messier.

Assuming a 3HP vehicle
12 Grav hits are required to average one dead 3 HP vehicle (be it AV10 or AV14)
D weapons are a bit more complicated, but typically will require only 2 hits, (and any single hit will kill a 3HP vehicle ~40% of the time through HP's alone, never mind the damage table) regardless of AV.

Against something like a Riptide, a rather optimal target for Grav weapons
Grav needs an average of 9 hits to kill, assuming only a 5++
D will kill outright on 1 in 6 shots regardless of invul.
D will require an average of 4.5 hits on "2-5" results through a 5++.
Taken together, lets be conservative and call it an average of 4 hits.
(that 5th wound makes a big difference)

Against a Wraithknight?
Grav will need an average of 13.5 hits to kill a W6 3+sv FNP Wraithknight
Much like the Riptide, D will require a rough average of 4.5 "2-5" results to kill the WK (no invul, but an extra wound) and D kills outright on a 6, so average the two together and you're probably looking at an average of ~4 hits, maybe less.

Does this take into account the Grav-amp which lets you re-roll the wound/armor pen results? Also, wonder how it compares to Destroyer weapons if they get changed to how Frontline is proposing to have them (which is 1=nothing; 2-5=d2 wounds; 5=2 wounds no saves).

Its not even close versus vehicles seeing they get cover saves versus grav while a 6 for D you can kiss it goodbye. Agreed ?

Grav vs D is a very difficult comparison. D vs Distort was easy, many units simply just got it for free, and we didn't have to worry about deliver platforms in those cases.

 Zagman wrote:
Grav vs D is a very difficult comparison. D vs Distort was easy, many units simply just got it for free, and we didn't have to worry about deliver platforms in those cases.

Grav vs D definitely is more complex but it would be interesting to compare because ranged D for ITC format is likely to go 1=nothing; 2-5=d2 wounds/HP and 6=automatic 2 wounds/HP with no saves of any kind. Therefore, I would be interested to see how Grav stacks up to the proposed changes to D that ITC is currently voting on. For me, the thing that bothers me about Grav the most is how it just inflicts an immobilized result against vehicles which essentially means that any vehicle that doesn't have more than 5 HP is gone if 2 damage results from a Grav weapon go through. Furthermore the Grav-amp, which is essentially a free "Doom" for 10 points per model makes Grav Cannons seem all the more powerful.

 mortetvie wrote:

 Zagman wrote:
Grav vs D is a very difficult comparison. D vs Distort was easy, many units simply just got it for free, and we didn't have to worry about deliver platforms in those cases.

Grav vs D definitely is more complex but it would be interesting to compare because ranged D for ITC format is likely to go 1=nothing; 2-5=d2 wounds/HP and 6=automatic 2 wounds/HP with no saves of any kind. Therefore, I would be interested to see how Grav stacks up to the proposed changes to D that ITC is currently voting on. For me, the thing that bothers me about Grav the most is how it just inflicts an immobilized result against vehicles which essentially means that any vehicle that doesn't have more than 5 HP is gone if 2 damage results from a Grav weapon go through. Furthermore the Grav-amp, which is essentially a free "Doom" for 10 points per model makes Grav Cannons seem all the more powerful.

Sure, I understand that and I'd be happy to do a usable breakdown, but how do you want it done? One grave "shot" vs one D shot is not terrible useful. Now, I could do one Grave Cannon Salvo vs one D Shot.

Grav itself it a great weapon, the problem was that the cost of Grav on Relentless platforms was not properly accounted for.

Also, Grav and D serve wildly differing purposes with Grav having much lower efficiency against Vehicle targets, and much greater efficiency against MEQ, TEQ, and points efficiency against MCs, and GMCs depending on the platform comparison.

If you pick your platforms, ie Grav Cents vs Wraithguard, or GravCents vs Wraithknight I'd be happy to supply the requested analysis. I can also do a per weapon analysis, but I feel a platform damage/cost analysis would be most usable.

Well, one Grav Cannon w/ Grav Amps on a Centurion is what, 90 points? That is like 3 Wraithguard effectively so each Grav Cannon on a Centurion w/ Grav Amp per 3 D shots would prob be a good start?

You have to factor in that grav is not good versus tee shirt saves. To me the best thing going for grav is rate of fire and mobile platforms (bikes). You can't say with a straight face grav is better than D .

 mortetvie wrote:
Does this take into account the Grav-amp which lets you re-roll the wound/armor pen results? Also, wonder how it compares to Destroyer weapons if they get changed to how Frontline is proposing to have them (which is 1=nothing; 2-5=d2 wounds; 5=2 wounds no saves).

It does not take Grav amps into account, primarily as only one unit with access to Grav weapons can get Grav amps. Grav Amps would obviously make a difference, but I was holding off on including anything like that, same for the D weapons with stuff like Doom or whatnot, and was trying to avoid having to take things like "twin-linked" into account by just counting hits instead of shots.

As for Frontline's changes, it certainly does bring those averages down, though I'd be much more interested in seeing suggested changes to vehicles (particularly as they typically have no save or much worse saves, and far fewer HP's than most MC's have wounds).

What do you mean as far as changes to vehicles? D-Weapons will apparently either do nothing on a 1, 1-2 HP on a 2-5 and an automatic 2 HP on a 6 with no saves; rather than d3 HP per shot or 6+d6 on a 6.

Those are the changes so cover will still be a thing except against D-Scythes/6 result and a 6 result won't automatically mean the vehicle is a goner (unless it only has 2 HP). This makes it so that a target is not so "automatically dead" IMO, though it is still pretty reliably dead.

I hadn't seen the full frontline changes so I didn't know if they just translated wounds to straight HP's.

Makes it a whole lot less abusive, still a lot more powerful than I think Wraithguard/D-Cannon batteries should be, but a whole lot more reasonable.

Though it does also make a number of superheavies rather weak. I think that's another big problem of D weapons on things like Wraithguard vs units like Shadowsords. But overall I'd be much more comfortable playing with these changes against Eldar.

 Vaktathi wrote:
I hadn't seen the full frontline changes so I didn't know if they just translated wounds to straight HP's.

Makes it a whole lot less abusive, still a lot more powerful than I think Wraithguard/D-Cannon batteries should be, but a whole lot more reasonable.

Though it does also make a number of superheavies rather weak. I think that's another big problem of D weapons on things like Wraithguard vs units like Shadowsords. But overall I'd be much more comfortable playing with these changes against Eldar.

Sure but the main thing is how often did anyone actually see Wraithguard played and how often/prevalent would they be if D was left unchanged? Honestly, I think if D was unchanged but allowed in Eldar-the Heavy D-Cannon and D-Scythe Wraithguard w/ WWP would be the only problems and even then, they would be rather limited in number and you'd likely only see one unit of each which probably isn't that bad-but that is neither here nor there or in the scope of this thread =/.

Regarding Grav weapons, the main places they are problematic to me are on Centurions where they are Relentless, usually have Gate of Infinity/Prescience due to Draigo/Librarian and have Gravamps/Hurricane Bolters so they are basically amazing against everything-you pretty much will always have Devestator Centurions rocking those options. In bringing up this unit, I just wondered how their damage output compares to an equivalent in D shots from Wraithguard before and after the ITC changes. You can figure about 470 for 5 Centurions, 245 for Draigo and 140 for Librarian for a total of around 855 for 15 Grav shots that are twin-linked and "doomed". That is about 26 Wraithguard with regular D-Cannons or 20 D-Scythe Wraithguard so is there a way to meaningfully compare how much damage a typical Cent-star would do compared to an equivalent amount of Eldar Destroyer weapons-both with the actual Destroyer rules and proposed ITC changes?

I saw Wraithguard in probably a third to just under half the Eldar armies using the 6E book? They weren't bad or under-utilized units, they just weren't auto-includes. I don't think they'd exactly be unseen units either way, my local store didn't keep any Wraithguard on the shelves after the changes were announced.

As for Grav Weapons, I think they have issues too, and Centstars are ridiculous (Centurions have an absolutely absurd number of shots), but these changes would bring them more in line with Grav weapons (the changed D weapons being better against superheavy vehicles while Gravcents would be better against T based stuff and both overkill against anything but the strongest of units)

 Vaktathi wrote:
I saw Wraithguard in probably a third to just under half the Eldar armies using the 6E book? They weren't bad or under-utilized units, they just weren't auto-includes. I don't think they'd exactly be unseen units either way, my local store didn't keep any Wraithguard on the shelves after the changes were announced.

As for Grav Weapons, I think they have issues too, and Centstars are ridiculous (Centurions have an absolutely absurd number of shots), but these changes would bring them more in line with Grav weapons (the changed D weapons being better against superheavy vehicles while Gravcents would be better against T based stuff and both overkill against anything but the strongest of units)

The only time I ever ran Wraithguard in recent GT events was at the Golden Throne GT where it was 5 in a Serpent w/ D-Scythes and I can't say how effective they were for me then because they usually died so horribly! Likewise, in the BAO or Brawl in the Fall, I took 8 Wraith Blades and I think any of those events I was probably either the only one that had Wraithguard or close to it =/. Also, I have taken Wraithguard in all forms consistently at RTT type events, with and without WWP, and have had a lot of mixed results with them. Sure they may kill dead a single target (unless you roll bad like me) but they usually (1) died after that or (2) didn't do much else to contribute to the game. Also, I found that they hardly ever got their points back in terms of things killed. Really, it was only the odd MC and vehicle that was really scared of Wraithguard (targets which I think Wriathguard are meant to engage).

So out of curiosity, I wonder how likely a unit of 5 D-Scythes, 5 Wraith Cannons and 5 Fire Dragons are likely to kill a target, respectively as those are pretty much the go-to WWP/Deepstrike and blast a target units. Are D Weapons that much more likely to vaporize a single MC/Vehicle than Fire Dragons, or are all pretty much equally certain to generate the same or similar results, for example? Really, if I do take D-Scythes, it will likely be just as insurance for that occasional death star/GC/SH and for the points invested in D-Scythes with WWP, they pretty much should wipe out whatever they shoot at IMO.

How can you talk for FLG? They just released a poll today.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
How can you talk for FLG? They just released a poll today.

Yesterday.

Now that we have seen the FLG poll results, does anyone else take issue with instant death being removed from all distort weapons in all cases?

I feel that this is objectively worse than they were in the past edition, even is average wounds inflicted increases.

 Swabby wrote:
Now that we have seen the FLG poll results, does anyone else take issue with instant death being removed from all distort weapons in all cases?

I feel that this is objectively worse than they were in the past edition, even is average wounds inflicted increases.

Nope
With average wounds inflicted increasing and the lack of multiwound models without some immunity to instadeath. Means the weapons are still inherently better then previously, has a larger ideal target range, and still the best weapon damage in game, that doesn't just remove from game any model it touches and eldar are still the only army with this special range snow flake benefit.

a. ugh. That 'snow flake' thing has got to go

b. I kinda do dislike Instant Death being removed. It fits fluff and should stay ... with the nerf of Cover and Invulns allowed, if *I* were the TO. Yeah, onna too.

That said, I bought my ticket to BAO have no problems with their rulings.

Some math:

2 Destroyer Shots (SD AP2) vs 2 Distort shots (S10 AP2 ID on 6) against AV12 vehicle, no cover/invulnerable

# HPs D% S10AP2% 0 0.198 0.198 1 0.110 0.428 2 0.125 0.232 3 0.140 4 0.046 5 0.030 6 0.015 EXP 0.126 0.143 D6+6 0.210

Effectively, against a 3HP AV12+ vehicle, 2 SD AP2 shots will kill it in one round of shooting 57% of the time, compared to old distort's 14% (not counting double immobilizations or weapon destroyed results). Plus it will apply at least one damage result 80% of the time.


2 Destroyer Shots (SD AP2) vs 2 Distort shots (S10 AP2 ID on 6) against T6 MC, no cover/invulnerable
# Ws D% S10AP2% 0 0.198 0.198 1 0.132 0.395 2 0.154 0.198 3 0.176 4 0.066 5 0.044 6 0.022 D6+6 0.210 0.210
Against a 4W MC with no cover/invulnerable/FNP, SD is 75% more likely to kill in a single round of shooting: on average it will take 2 rounds of shooting to kill the target through attrition or ID, compared to 4 rounds for Distort.


But what about a tougher target? lets say a riptide: 3+ invulnerable, FNP:
Distort goes to a 17% chance for 1 wound, a 1% chance for 2 wounds, and a 7% chance for ID
Destroyer still has a 21% chance of ID, an additional <1% chance for 5/6 wounds, <1% chance of 4 wounds, and a ~7.5% chance for each of 1/2/3 wounds.

What does this mean?
Against targets where it matters, Ap2 Destroyer is 3-4 times more effective than Distort weapons.

Trasvi wrote:
Some math:

2 Destroyer Shots (SD AP2) vs 2 Distort shots (S10 AP2 ID on 6) against AV12 vehicle, no cover/invulnerable

# HPs D% S10AP2% 0 0.198 0.198 1 0.110 0.428 2 0.125 0.232 3 0.140 4 0.046 5 0.030 6 0.015 EXP 0.126 0.143 D6+6 0.210

Effectively, against a 3HP AV12+ vehicle, 2 SD AP2 shots will kill it in one round of shooting 57% of the time, compared to old distort's 14% (not counting double immobilizations or weapon destroyed results). Plus it will apply at least one damage result 80% of the time.


2 Destroyer Shots (SD AP2) vs 2 Distort shots (S10 AP2 ID on 6) against T6 MC, no cover/invulnerable
# Ws D% S10AP2% 0 0.198 0.198 1 0.132 0.395 2 0.154 0.198 3 0.176 4 0.066 5 0.044 6 0.022 D6+6 0.210 0.210
Against a 4W MC with no cover/invulnerable/FNP, SD is 75% more likely to kill in a single round of shooting: on average it will take 2 rounds of shooting to kill the target through attrition or ID, compared to 4 rounds for Distort.


But what about a tougher target? lets say a riptide: 3+ invulnerable, FNP:
Distort goes to a 17% chance for 1 wound, a 1% chance for 2 wounds, and a 7% chance for ID
Destroyer still has a 21% chance of ID, an additional <1% chance for 5/6 wounds, <1% chance of 4 wounds, and a ~7.5% chance for each of 1/2/3 wounds.

What does this mean?
Against targets where it matters, Ap2 Destroyer is 3-4 times more effective than Distort weapons.

Very useful. Math is wonderful.

Have a lot of fun, pick an Imperial Knight that is part of the Adamantine Lance. The ~20% chance to one shot any model currently in the game cannot be ignored, especially on the incredibly durable Wraithknight frame.

Seriously, whoever took the already over durable Wraithknight and increased its durability by over 50%, increased its CC, gave it Ranged D, and only increased its cost by ~23%.... Mindbogglingly terrible for balance.

 Zagman wrote:
Seriously, whoever took the already over durable Wraithknight and increased its durability by over 50%, increased its CC, gave it Ranged D, and only increased its cost by ~23%.... Mindbogglingly terrible for balance.

Remember, in Nottingham, at their HQ, they have a bar. A big one, called Bugman's. That ought to explain why the WK got so much love.

 Zagman wrote:


Very useful. Math is wonderful.

Have a lot of fun, pick an Imperial Knight that is part of the Adamantine Lance. The ~20% chance to one shot any model currently in the game cannot be ignored, especially on the incredibly durable Wraithknight frame.

Seriously, whoever took the already over durable Wraithknight and increased its durability by over 50%, increased its CC, gave it Ranged D, and only increased its cost by ~23%.... Mindbogglingly terrible for balance.

Another big part of why it is amazing is the new scatterbikes.
The targets that bikes start to fare poorly against (AV12+ vehicles and T6 MC's) are perfect targets for D weapons. The targets that D is overkill against (T4 or less single wound infantry) are great targets for scatterguns. They compliment each fantastically.

Trasvi wrote:

 Zagman wrote:


Very useful. Math is wonderful.

Have a lot of fun, pick an Imperial Knight that is part of the Adamantine Lance. The ~20% chance to one shot any model currently in the game cannot be ignored, especially on the incredibly durable Wraithknight frame.

Seriously, whoever took the already over durable Wraithknight and increased its durability by over 50%, increased its CC, gave it Ranged D, and only increased its cost by ~23%.... Mindbogglingly terrible for balance.

Another big part of why it is amazing is the new scatterbikes.
The targets that bikes start to fare poorly against (AV12+ vehicles and T6 MC's) are perfect targets for D weapons. The targets that D is overkill against (T4 or less single wound infantry) are great targets for scatterguns. They compliment each fantastically.

Exactly, it was evident without the statistical analysis in the first five seconds, utter ridiculous!

 Zagman wrote:

Trasvi wrote:

 Zagman wrote:


Very useful. Math is wonderful.

Have a lot of fun, pick an Imperial Knight that is part of the Adamantine Lance. The ~20% chance to one shot any model currently in the game cannot be ignored, especially on the incredibly durable Wraithknight frame.

Seriously, whoever took the already over durable Wraithknight and increased its durability by over 50%, increased its CC, gave it Ranged D, and only increased its cost by ~23%.... Mindbogglingly terrible for balance.

Another big part of why it is amazing is the new scatterbikes.
The targets that bikes start to fare poorly against (AV12+ vehicles and T6 MC's) are perfect targets for D weapons. The targets that D is overkill against (T4 or less single wound infantry) are great targets for scatterguns. They compliment each fantastically.

Exactly, it was evident without the statistical analysis in the first five seconds, utter ridiculous!

SO who wants to jump in and defend this trite? Someone that doesn't like tournaments in the first place?

gungo wrote:

Nope
With averagre wounds inflicted increasing and the lack of multiwound models without some immunity to instadeath. Means the weapons are still inherently better then previously, has a larger ideal target range, and still the best weapon damage in game, that doesn't just remove from game any model it touches and eldar are still the only army with this special range snow flake benefit.

I am not sure if I understand why a models immunity to instant death matters or not in this case. Under the ITC rules a str D weapon cannot be instant death ever according to their modified chart.

What used to be distort weapons lose instant death altogether under the ruling, this seems like a nerf. Perhaps I am just dense.

 mortetvie wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
I hadn't seen the full frontline changes so I didn't know if they just translated wounds to straight HP's.

Makes it a whole lot less abusive, still a lot more powerful than I think Wraithguard/D-Cannon batteries should be, but a whole lot more reasonable.

Though it does also make a number of superheavies rather weak. I think that's another big problem of D weapons on things like Wraithguard vs units like Shadowsords. But overall I'd be much more comfortable playing with these changes against Eldar.

Sure but the main thing is how often did anyone actually see Wraithguard played and how often/prevalent would they be if D was left unchanged? Honestly, I think if D was unchanged but allowed in Eldar-the Heavy D-Cannon and D-Scythe Wraithguard w/ WWP would be the only problems and even then, they would be rather limited in number and you'd likely only see one unit of each which probably isn't that bad-but that is neither here nor there or in the scope of this thread =/.

Regarding Grav weapons, the main places they are problematic to me are on Centurions where they are Relentless, usually have Gate of Infinity/Prescience due to Draigo/Librarian and have Gravamps/Hurricane Bolters so they are basically amazing against everything-you pretty much will always have Devestator Centurions rocking those options. In bringing up this unit, I just wondered how their damage output compares to an equivalent in D shots from Wraithguard before and after the ITC changes. You can figure about 470 for 5 Centurions, 245 for Draigo and 140 for Librarian for a total of around 855 for 15 Grav shots that are twin-linked and "doomed". That is about 26 Wraithguard with regular D-Cannons or 20 D-Scythe Wraithguard so is there a way to meaningfully compare how much damage a typical Cent-star would do compared to an equivalent amount of Eldar Destroyer weapons-both with the actual Destroyer rules and proposed ITC changes?

25 grav cannon shots, since they shoot 5 shots each.

80pts for the bolter/cannon version, 90 if they have a missile launcher. Sergeant will be anywhere between 90 and 110, depending on if he has an ominiscope, bolters, or missile launcher.

So, 420 If they got bolters 470 with missiles. Though, with the necron and eldar releases, seeing less reasons to take the boltguns...

I had a guy argue with me on Facebook that wraith cannons were about as good as they were before vs leman russes squadrons. I don't know why I bother with some people.

More evidence that opinions without data are worthless, and actually demonstrable data can knock you down.

Thanks to Amos for doing the research.



http://www.gocomics.com/9chickweedlane/2015/05/24



(yeah, you gotta think about it for a minute. Plus, Edda is just hot).