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I am still super-rusty from 5e but am looking for ways to tweak this list. I figure that "long range fire support" is always going to be an issue for Chaos.

The Juggerlord joins the 6-strong unit of Flesh Hounds.

The Rhino Marines are two teams of 2 melta squads/one plasma squad. The Bikers are sacrificial objective-takers/melta teams.

If the list were updated to use Forgeworld, I *could* replace the Oblits with Hades Rapiers and drop points for Hellblades but I am FW-adverse.

==Chaos CAD==

=HQ=
• Khorne Lord on Juggernaut w/ Axe of Blind Fury, Sigil of Corruption, Gift of Mutation- 180

=Troops=
• 5 Marines w/ VoTLW, 1 Meltagun, Champ has Combi-Melta - 100
   • Rhino w/ Dozer Blade - 40
• 5 Marines w/ VoTLW, 1 Meltagun, Champ has Combi-Melta - 100
   • Rhino w/ Dozer Blade - 40
• 5 Marines w/ VoTLW, 1 Meltagun, Champ has Combi-Melta - 100
   • Rhino w/ Dozer Blade - 40
• 5 Marines w/ VoTLW, 1 Meltagun, Champ has Combi-Melta - 100
   • Rhino w/ Dozer Blade - 40

=Elites=
• 5 Chosen, 2 Plasmaguns: 120
   • Rhino w/ Dozer Blade, Havoc Launcher - 52

=Heavy Support=
• 5 Havocs, 2 Plasmaguns, Veterans of the Long War - 110
   • Rhino w/ Dozer Blade, Havoc Launcher - 52
• Obliterator w/ MoN - 76
• Obliterator w/ MoN - 76

==Daemonkin Gorepack==
• 3 Bikers w/ MoK, 2 Meltaguns - 96
• 3 Bikers w/ MoK, 2 Meltaguns - 96
• 6 Flesh Hounds - 96
• 7 Flesh Hounds - 112
• 7 Flesh Hounds - 112
• 7 Flesh Hounds - 112

Total: 1850

interesting... msu marines ...

Plague marines are best for msu as they can skip rhino and foot slog.

armies that field min troops do so to unlock better transport like necron night scythes, eldar wave serpents of previous dex,etc...the rhino is weak but cheap.

Why have you given the expensive juggerlord a weak retinue?

What's the idea behind the 2X plasma gun Havok squad? They seem to have a very similar role to your chosen, but the Havoks could do so much more for 1 of your 3 heavy support slots. I would suggest loading 4 out with Autocannons to shred light armor/elite infantry or at least 4X plasma/melta guns to maximize Havok's potential. Otherwise the points might be better spent on fleshing out your marine troop squads.

I'd also mirror Captyn Bob, the juggerlord would do well to be flanked by some tougher multi-wound models. Spawn work really well with a juggerlord, since they share the beast profile. Also of note, bikes can do in a pinch. Juggerlord rolling down the field with 2X meltagun bikers can do some damage (and draw a lot of fire in the process).

 clamclaw wrote:


I'd also mirror Captyn Bob, the juggerlord would do well to be flanked by some tougher multi-wound models. Spawn work really well with a juggerlord, since they share the beast profile. Also of note, bikes can do in a pinch. Juggerlord rolling down the field with 2X meltagun bikers can do some damage (and draw a lot of fire in the process).

Flesh hounds are a better retinue for the Juggerlord, They'll need the numbers thou, I'm assuming he'll ride with the 7 ones, which should be as resilient as 4 non-marked spawns, I'd join one of the 6-hound squad with the seven and make the the lord retinue, that's 26 T4 5++ wounds with +2 to deny the witch rolls, and better assault potential (non-random attacks, WS5, FC)

 Lord Yayula wrote:

 clamclaw wrote:


I'd also mirror Captyn Bob, the juggerlord would do well to be flanked by some tougher multi-wound models. Spawn work really well with a juggerlord, since they share the beast profile. Also of note, bikes can do in a pinch. Juggerlord rolling down the field with 2X meltagun bikers can do some damage (and draw a lot of fire in the process).

Flesh hounds are a better retinue for the Juggerlord, They'll need the numbers thou, I'm assuming he'll ride with the 7 ones, which should be as resilient as 4 non-marked spawns, I'd join one of the 6-hound squad with the seven and make the the lord retinue, that's 26 T4 5++ wounds with +2 to deny the witch rolls, and better assault potential (non-random attacks, WS5, FC)

Huh, I guess I've underestimated Flesh Hounds. Never given them a fair look, but I suppose you only lose 1 Str/T/W per model and gain WS and reliable attacks. However hounds are only half the points of a spawn, so it might more come down to preference. Would be interesting to see the mathhammer on it.

By the way, anybody given Bloodcrushers a shot as a juggerlord retinue? Figured as long as you're allying daemons and such Bloodcrushes make more aesthetic sense, and maybe even perform well.

Sadly you must have a mark of Khorne to use the AOBF. Also, make a Daemonkin detachment and get the CSM in it with their rhinos, more costly yes, but more blood tithe as a result. Or just drop the whole CSM idea and make it all Daemonkin replacing the oblit and havoc with skull cannons if you want range artillery or a heldrake if you want an all in one murder machine that isn't as good against vehicles.

 clamclaw wrote:


Huh, I guess I've underestimated Flesh Hounds. Never given them a fair look, but I suppose you only lose 1 Str/T/W per model and gain WS and reliable attacks. However hounds are only half the points of a spawn, so it might more come down to preference. Would be interesting to see the mathhammer on it.

By the way, anybody given Bloodcrushers a shot as a juggerlord retinue? Figured as long as you're allying daemons and such Bloodcrushes make more aesthetic sense, and maybe even perform well.

I'm lazy to do a math analysis again but I'll just repost the one I did on a BoLS analysis on the KDK codex

Roughly 14 flesh hounds are the same cost as 5 blood crushers, they are kinda the most even comparison, with only 1 pt difference between both.

Survival: 28 T4 6++ on the hounds vs 15 T4 6++ on the crushers. IF hit by a 8+ weapon you lose 3 wounds by each unsaved wound instead of 2, they are pretty much the same base size, the hounds are 10mm less but lets say they have the footprint vs templates. Hounds also have adamantium will through the collar of khorne. As an extra they don't treat difficul terrain as dangerous. That is a point for the hounds

Dmg output: The crushers have 16 S5 Ap3 attacks with WS5 against 28 Attacks S4 AP-, assumming 14 models manage to make it into combat (fighting a 10man unit). Against a MEQ the Crushers will deal 7.11 wounds vs 3.11 dealt by the hounds. This scenarios aren't calculated with the charge, which would increase the wounds of both units. So BC against Sv 3+ are definitely better against Sv2+ the hounds do more dmg, so point for the crushers.

Movement is the same for both units, both ignore terrain and get fleet.

Now... besides being able to withstand less dmg the crushers + the lord will probably eat complete units on 1 turn, which isn't necessarily good, if you kill the unit you charge on the same turn you are vulnerable to shots so you want to hit that sweet spot when it takes you 2 turns to kill a unit so that you are free to get a 2nd charge. Depending on how killy the lord is the blood crushers might actually be overkill and waste the extra wounds they make.

If used in a Gorepack formation they get HoW attacks as well

 Filch wrote:
interesting... msu marines ...

Plague marines are best for msu as they can skip rhino and foot slog.

armies that field min troops do so to unlock better transport like necron night scythes, eldar wave serpents of previous dex,etc...the rhino is weak but cheap.

I need to take the fight to the enemy and push for objectives. Also Rhinos are their own terrain.

 clamclaw wrote:
What's the idea behind the 2X plasma gun Havok squad? They seem to have a very similar role to your chosen, but the Havoks could do so much more for 1 of your 3 heavy support slots. I would suggest loading 4 out with Autocannons to shred light armor/elite infantry or at least 4X plasma/melta guns to maximize Havok's potential. Otherwise the points might be better spent on fleshing out your marine troop squads.

Symmetry. Old force of habit but I take most units in multiples of 2 wherever possible. A single autohavoc unit will be isolated from the rest, while Oblits can at least advance on occasion.

 dragoonmaster101 wrote:
Sadly you must have a mark of Khorne to use the AOBF. Also, make a Daemonkin detachment and get the CSM in it with their rhinos, more costly yes, but more blood tithe as a result. Or just drop the whole CSM idea and make it all Daemonkin replacing the oblit and havoc with skull cannons if you want range artillery or a heldrake if you want an all in one murder machine that isn't as good against vehicles.

He has a Mark. I said Khorne Lord for a reason. Otherwise the Juggernaut would also be off-limits.

Considering the extra cost for each Marine unit if given MoK, as well as the fact you now have to take units with minimum squad size of 8, you also have to drop the Chosen, lose the AoBF...

On another amusing footnote, all models in the Gorepack have Preferred Enemy (Psykers) so the Lord is now more than capable of punching out Dreadknights.

Mathing spawns vs hounds...

Shooting

5 Spawns is the same cost as 10 hounds. On shooting, it takes 45 S4 hits to down the 5 spawns vs 60 needed to down the hounds, assuming the spawns get a 5+ cover which will be the more common, and if you ain't facing any ignore cover weapon, the spawns need 67.5 hits to go down, so even if they can take more hits on cover you need to worry about your path, vs just going straightline vs your target and charging sooner.

Obviously for both cases a 4+ cover would increase the hits they can take and you should always try to take advantage of it.

Vs S6 hits in the open it takes 60 hits to down both the 5 spawns and the 10 hounds, in 5+ cover the spawns need 45. Here the spawns and the hounds are equal unless in cover

Vs S7 the hounds are better without any need for calcs, both get wounded on 2's and the hounds have more wounds and their invul saves

Vs S8-9 The hounds are insta-killed and therefore reduced from 20 wounds to 10, the spawns will hold longer

Vs S10 The hounds beat the spawns here due to both being instakilled and the hounds only taking 2 wounds per insta-kill vs 3 wounds per insta-kill on the spawns

Close Combat

Vs MEQ, need 67.5 WS4 S4 attacks to kill the 5 spawns, against the 10 hounds they need 120 attacks. And the spawns make 1.94 wounds back to the marines per round, vs 2.22 done by the hounds.

Vs S5 attacks, the spawns need to take 45 hits to go down vs 90 needed to down the hounds, and so it goes until S8-9 again, where the spawns are better and then back to the hounds being better at S10

So... in shooting I think they are fairly the same, but in close combat the hounds are a lot better unless facing a squad of hammer/fist termies. Also you are allowed to take up to 20 if I'm not mistaken, 15 seems like a pretty strong number while still keeping it just above the cost of your average spawn. If comparing against the spawns on the Khorne daemonkin which need to pay the MoK they are probably better because the hounds are cheaper and the spawns only get counterattack over the CSM markless ones

Wow, much appreciated. Very good analysis, and I think all of the bases were covered. Cover is always a fickle part of any units performance, but the hounds look more reliable overall.