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So the Sanctuary counts as an Ion Shield and gives you a 6++ in other facings. Taking a Sanctuary does NOT replace your Ion Shield. So my questions are;

1) As I have 2 Ion Shields do I get to pick 2 facings for my 4++?
2) How does this interact with Council of Lords and Ionic Shield wall? Do the +1 invuns on Ion Shield saves improve the 6++ to a 5++ in relevant facing(s) as the Sanctuary counts as an Ion Shield any save you get from it would be buffed. Or as the 6++ covers "each facing that is NOT coveted by its ion shield" mean the 6++ is not an Ion Shield save and therefore not eligible?

What do you think people?

If you're referring to the psychic power "Sanctuary", then it only buffs your Ion Shield by +1, it doesn't ALSO give you a 6+, unless there is a FAQ I don't know about. The wording of sanctuary is: "Improves your invuln save by 1. If you don't have an invuln save, it gives you a 6+."

An Ion shield is an invuln save that only effects 1 facing? Well, that's still an invuln save, so the second part of the rule wouldn't apply.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:
If you're referring to the psychic power "Sanctuary"...

He's not. He's talking about the Heirloom of the Knightly Houses Sanctuary.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:
If you're referring to the psychic power "Sanctuary", then it only buffs your Ion Shield by +1, it doesn't ALSO give you a 6+, unless there is a FAQ I don't know about. The wording of sanctuary is: "Improves your invuln save by 1. If you don't have an invuln save, it gives you a 6+."

An Ion shield is an invuln save that only effects 1 facing? Well, that's still an invuln save, so the second part of the rule wouldn't apply.

How could he be talking about the Sanctuary psychic power when that power can only target the psyker himself and no IKs are psykers?

 CrownAxe wrote:

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:
If you're referring to the psychic power "Sanctuary", then it only buffs your Ion Shield by +1, it doesn't ALSO give you a 6+, unless there is a FAQ I don't know about. The wording of sanctuary is: "Improves your invuln save by 1. If you don't have an invuln save, it gives you a 6+."

An Ion shield is an invuln save that only effects 1 facing? Well, that's still an invuln save, so the second part of the rule wouldn't apply.

How could he be talking about the Sanctuary psychic power when that power can only target the psyker himself and no IKs are psykers?

I'm not terribly familiar with IKs, and IKs are supposed to be coming up soon, so I wasn't sure if perhaps he was referring to a rumor of a new psyker IK or something. So At least I qualified my statement by saying what I -thought- he meant.

Imperial Knights are out got Codex yesterday. I am talking about the Heirloom. Not sure where you got that the Psychic Powr counted as an Ion Shield from?

Shield wall boosting the save is definitely a no-no; by definition it's 'each facing not protected by the ion shield' as you state - so something improving the ion shield save can't really improve it.

The 6+ save is a byproduct of an additional special rule. Imagine an army-wide rule (a formation command benefit for the sake of the argument) that all plasma weapons gain the Instant Death rule; would you expect to outright kill your captain if his plasma pistol triggered the Gets Hot rule?

The second facing.....If it adds the save and doesn't say it replaces or improves your ion shield, then I guess you have two ion shields. The question is whether the rules for the ion shield allow you to pick more than one facing, no matter how many shields you have - over to the man with the codex, here.

locarno24 wrote:
Shield wall boosting the save is definitely a no-no; by definition it's 'each facing not protected by the ion shield' as you state - so something improving the ion shield save can't really improve it.

The 6+ save is a byproduct of an additional special rule. Imagine an army-wide rule (a formation command benefit for the sake of the argument) that all plasma weapons gain the Instant Death rule; would you expect to outright kill your captain if his plasma pistol triggered the Gets Hot rule?

The second facing.....If it adds the save and doesn't say it replaces or improves your ion shield, then I guess you have two ion shields. The question is whether the rules for the ion shield allow you to pick more than one facing, no matter how many shields you have - over to the man with the codex, here.

Whilst I agree that the 6+ covers facings not covered by your Ion Shield. Shield wall boosts your Ion saves correct? Does the 6++ come from an Ion Shield? Irrefutably yes.

Going back to you plasma example if the rule instead stated "any wounds caused by plasma weapons gain Instant Death" then I would argue yes that would effect the Gets Hot rule.

I'm pretty sure that when stacked correctly, the heirloom + benefits can net a Knight a 3++ Ion Shield with 5++ on the other 3 facings due to how the individual rules are worded.

Sanctuary
“Sanctuary counts as an ion shield. In addition, a Knight equipped with Sanctuary has a 6+ invulnerable save against each facing that is not covered by its ion shield. Sanctuary cannot be used to make saving throws against close combat attacks.”

Exalted Court
“Furthermore, before deployment, nominate one model in this Formation to be High King or Princeps of the knightly house; add 2 to this model’s Weapon Skill and Ballistic Skill characteristics and add 1 to any invulnerable saving throw this model makes for its ion shield.”

Excerpts From: Workshop, Games. “Codex: Imperial Knights (eBook Edition).

SJ

Surely a 3++ on 2 sides? With a 5++ on the other two?

Contradictory wording on the rule itself is going to make this argumentative.

""Sanctuary counts as an ion shield. In addition, a Knight equipped with Sanctuary has a 6+ invulnerable save against each facing that is not covered by its ion shield. Sanctuary cannot be used to make saving throws against close combat attacks""

It appears that they are making a separation between the Ion Shield and the 6+ Invuln generated by the rule.

Hard to say how that will go.

Fragile wrote:
Contradictory wording on the rule itself is going to make this argumentative.

""Sanctuary counts as an ion shield. In addition, a Knight equipped with Sanctuary has a 6+ invulnerable save against each facing that is not covered by its ion shield. Sanctuary cannot be used to make saving throws against close combat attacks""

It appears that they are making a separation between the Ion Shield and the 6+ Invuln generated by the rule.

Hard to say how that will go.

That is pretty much my take on it. Getting 2 facings with a 4++ seems less debatable and a given RaW.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
I'm pretty sure that when stacked correctly, the heirloom + benefits can net a Knight a 3++ Ion Shield with 5++ on the other 3 facings due to how the individual rules are worded.

Sanctuary
“Sanctuary counts as an ion shield. In addition, a Knight equipped with Sanctuary has a 6+ invulnerable save against each facing that is not covered by its ion shield. Sanctuary cannot be used to make saving throws against close combat attacks.”

Exalted Court
“Furthermore, before deployment, nominate one model in this Formation to be High King or Princeps of the knightly house; add 2 to this model’s Weapon Skill and Ballistic Skill characteristics and add 1 to any invulnerable saving throw this model makes for its ion shield.”

Excerpts From: Workshop, Games. “Codex: Imperial Knights (eBook Edition).

SJ

actually, by the rules you quoted, the other facings "not covered by its ion shield" 100% do *not* benefit from the +1 to their invul save, as the +1 is only for saves on ion shields.

how can a facing, not covered by the sanctuary/ion shield, receive a benefit of +1 that only affects saving throws made on its ion shield?






as for the model having two 4++s, due to having both the ion shield and sanctuary, depends on how its worded, if there is nothing to the effect that sanctuary replaces the ion shield, while RAI might not be so, RAW yes... sigh, you get two facings to choose a 4++ on.

Because the Sanctuary Ion Shield is 4++/6++, as in, the 6++ is a product of the Ion Shield, and works the same as the Ion Shield except the it coves the rest of the facings rather than the one selected. It's right there in the rule.

On the other point, I see no rules of language indicating a second facing can be covered by the 4++. It reads that Sanctuary replaces the regular Ion Shield, not exists in addition to the regular Shield.

SJ

Sanctuary does not replace Ion Shield and is an Ion shield. Nothing in Ion shield wording prevents multiples from working on a Knight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Because the Sanctuary Ion Shield is 4++/6++, as in, the 6++ is a product of the Ion Shield, and works the same as the Ion Shield except the it coves the rest of the facings rather than the one selected. It's right there in the rule.

On the other point, I see no rules of language indicating a second facing can be covered by the 4++. It reads that Sanctuary replaces the regular Ion Shield, not exists in addition to the regular Shield.

SJ

Where are you getting the replace wording?

 FlingitNow wrote:
Sanctuary does not replace Ion Shield and is an Ion shield. Nothing in Ion shield wording prevents multiples from working on a Knight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Because the Sanctuary Ion Shield is 4++/6++, as in, the 6++ is a product of the Ion Shield, and works the same as the Ion Shield except the it coves the rest of the facings rather than the one selected. It's right there in the rule.

On the other point, I see no rules of language indicating a second facing can be covered by the 4++. It reads that Sanctuary replaces the regular Ion Shield, not exists in addition to the regular Shield.

SJ

Where are you getting the replace wording?

Please cite a rule that says you can have more than one Ion Shield, and include the part where they tell us how that works. I'd really like to know where it is you think you can have more than one.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Because the Sanctuary Ion Shield is 4++/6++, as in, the 6++ is a product of the Ion Shield, and works the same as the Ion Shield except the it coves the rest of the facings rather than the one selected. It's right there in the rule.

On the other point, I see no rules of language indicating a second facing can be covered by the 4++. It reads that Sanctuary replaces the regular Ion Shield, not exists in addition to the regular Shield.

SJ

the +1 is to the ion sheild,

the 6++ is on a facing and im quoting the rule here *not covered by its ion sheild*

so, since the ion sheild doesnt cover the non chosen facing, and ONLY facings *not covered by the ion sheild* get a 6++, why would a +1 that *only* applies to the ion sheild, apply to a facing that is explicitly stated as not being covered by the ion sheild

the rules state the other facings are not covered by the ion sheilds save, yet you are applying an ion sheild *only* bonus to those facings that are not covered by the ion sheild.

ignore.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Sanctuary does not replace Ion Shield and is an Ion shield. Nothing in Ion shield wording prevents multiples from working on a Knight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Because the Sanctuary Ion Shield is 4++/6++, as in, the 6++ is a product of the Ion Shield, and works the same as the Ion Shield except the it coves the rest of the facings rather than the one selected. It's right there in the rule.

On the other point, I see no rules of language indicating a second facing can be covered by the 4++. It reads that Sanctuary replaces the regular Ion Shield, not exists in addition to the regular Shield.

SJ

Where are you getting the replace wording?

Please cite a rule that says you can have more than one Ion Shield, and include the part where they tell us how that works. I'd really like to know where it is you think you can have more than one.

SJ

If the codex gives you an option to take another ion shield, (I'll be checking the wording when i get home) then that is the rule that says you can have two.......
As for how it works, the rules for ion shields in the codex are all you need to explain how to use them

 jokerkd wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Sanctuary does not replace Ion Shield and is an Ion shield. Nothing in Ion shield wording prevents multiples from working on a Knight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Because the Sanctuary Ion Shield is 4++/6++, as in, the 6++ is a product of the Ion Shield, and works the same as the Ion Shield except the it coves the rest of the facings rather than the one selected. It's right there in the rule.

On the other point, I see no rules of language indicating a second facing can be covered by the 4++. It reads that Sanctuary replaces the regular Ion Shield, not exists in addition to the regular Shield.

SJ

Where are you getting the replace wording?

Please cite a rule that says you can have more than one Ion Shield, and include the part where they tell us how that works. I'd really like to know where it is you think you can have more than one.

SJ

If the codex gives you an option to take another ion shield, (I'll be checking the wording when i get home) then that is the rule that says you can have two.......
As for how it works, the rules for ion shields in the codex are all you need to explain how to use them

So, you have nothing you can cite that tells us that two Ion Shields can be taken, and how to use the second Ion Shield. Cool.

SJ


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 easysauce wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Because the Sanctuary Ion Shield is 4++/6++, as in, the 6++ is a product of the Ion Shield, and works the same as the Ion Shield except the it coves the rest of the facings rather than the one selected. It's right there in the rule.

On the other point, I see no rules of language indicating a second facing can be covered by the 4++. It reads that Sanctuary replaces the regular Ion Shield, not exists in addition to the regular Shield.

SJ

the +1 is to the ion sheild,

the 6++ is on a facing and im quoting the rule here *not covered by its ion sheild*

so, since the ion sheild doesnt cover the non chosen facing, and ONLY facings *not covered by the ion sheild* get a 6++, why would a +1 that *only* applies to the ion sheild, apply to a facing that is explicitly stated as not being covered by the ion sheild

the rules state the other facings are not covered by the ion sheilds save, yet you are applying an ion sheild *only* bonus to those facings that are not covered by the ion sheild.

I cited the rules in question. Not sure why you didn't read them before posting.

SJ

Every imperial knight has wargear "ion shield"

Option to take an heirloom on character model is stated in primary detachment and certain formation detachments.

If the heirloom is a shield that does not replace the standard wargear, you have two shields. Simples

How are the codex instructions on how to use an ion shield not able to cover using two?
You pick a facing for a shield. You pick a facing for a shield

SJ please explain how those facings (quoting rules here so dont try to argue im not) *that are not covered by the ION shield* somehow at the same time are covered by the ion shield and therefore receive the benefits an ion shield would get. Because Its a straight cut and simple contradiction with what RAW says to treat things *not covered by the ion shield* as being covered by the ion shield.

 jokerkd wrote:
Every imperial knight has wargear "ion shield"

Option to take an heirloom on character model is stated in primary detachment and certain formation detachments.

If the heirloom is a shield that does not replace the standard wargear, you have two shields. Simples

How are the codex instructions on how to use an ion shield not able to cover using two?
You pick a facing for a shield. You pick a facing for a shield

this is unfortunately, RAW in this case, not RAI i would gather, but technically you have two sheilds and there is no reason why both could not be used,

Permission for 2 Ion Shields is simple: pages 102-106 Wargear Ion Shield list for every Knight. So we know they start with 1. Pages 107, 108 & 98 give permission to select Heirlooms of the Knightly Houses to 1 or more knight in the Detachment. Page 101 lists Sanctuary as an Heirloom for 15 points it does not state it replaces anything so it doesn't. Page 118 "Sanctuary counts as an Ion Shield". So we know you have 2 Ion Shields. This seems like intent to me as there was no other reason to have the Sanctuary count as an Ion Shield.

So what does having 2 shields do? Page 117
"When an Imperial Knight is... blah blah blah... the controlling player must declare which facing each Imperial Knight's ion shield is cover". So we pick a facing for each shield.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for the 6+, what is the source of that save? Remembering if you say Sanctuary that is the same as saying an Ion Shield.

 FlingitNow wrote:


As for the 6+, what is the source of that save? Remembering if you say Sanctuary that is the same as saying an Ion Shield.

Sanctuary is not just an ion shield. "Counts as" is not the same as "is".

the rule says "any invulnerable save this model makes for it's ion shield"

the rule for sanctuary specifically states you only get a 6++ on facings that are "not covered by it's ion shield" that seems less debatable to me.

the obvious problem here is, it probably was meant to only be one shield. poorly written rules (too common lately) are what let you take both. this explains why both mentioned rules are written as if you only have one. because they probably were intended that way

Consistently GW has ruled "counts as" being the same as "is".

 easysauce wrote:

SJ please explain how those facings (quoting rules here so dont try to argue im not) *that are not covered by the ION shield* somehow at the same time are covered by the ion shield and therefore receive the benefits an ion shield would get. Because Its a straight cut and simple contradiction with what RAW says to treat things *not covered by the ion shield* as being covered by the ion shield.

 jokerkd wrote:
Every imperial knight has wargear "ion shield"

Option to take an heirloom on character model is stated in primary detachment and certain formation detachments.

If the heirloom is a shield that does not replace the standard wargear, you have two shields. Simples

How are the codex instructions on how to use an ion shield not able to cover using two?
You pick a facing for a shield. You pick a facing for a shield

this is unfortunately, RAW in this case, not RAI i would gather, but technically you have two sheilds and there is no reason why both could not be used,

I'll respond to your request by quoting the post you failed to read:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
I'm pretty sure that when stacked correctly, the heirloom + benefits can net a Knight a 3++ Ion Shield with 5++ on the other 3 facings due to how the individual rules are worded.

Sanctuary
“Sanctuary counts as an ion shield. In addition, a Knight equipped with Sanctuary has a 6+ invulnerable save against each facing that is not covered by its ion shield. Sanctuary cannot be used to make saving throws against close combat attacks.”

Exalted Court
“Furthermore, before deployment, nominate one model in this Formation to be High King or Princeps of the knightly house; add 2 to this model’s Weapon Skill and Ballistic Skill characteristics and add 1 to any invulnerable saving throw this model makes for its ion shield.”

Excerpts From: Workshop, Games. “Codex: Imperial Knights (eBook Edition).

SJ

" the controlling player must declare which facing each Imperial Knight's ion shield is cover"

So you declare one facing per knight, two Ion shields still only cover the one facing declared for the Knight as declarations are per Knight not per Ion Shield.

I think.

SJ come on man, you are being obtuse, I told you I read it, and that you were missing what the rules quoted actually say... im being polite and straight forward here man, at least read it objectively as you are completely ignoring the 2nd part of the rules for sanctuary. Sanctuary is and ION shield AND it provides and invul from a rule that is 100% not ion shield. rules that affect ion shield, would not affect invuls that come from other sources.


sanctuary has two parts, it counts as an ion shield, then *IN ADDITION* to counting as an ion shield, it has other rules that are not counted as an ion shield, and are explicitly stated as counting as *not covered by the ion shield*.. you seem to not be reading that second part for some reason.

note the red bit says it counts as ion shield, note the yellow bit specifically says its NOT counted as being covered by an ion shield... its just an invul covering the other sides as the rulse actuall state... ion shields only cover ONE side, not all sides, its a totally different rule then ion shield that covers the other facings... and the rules back me up to this effect when they state the *facing *NOT* covered by its ion shield*

red is ion sheild, orange is clearly something else rules that are in addition to, and separate from, ion sheild. after all, check the ion shield rules, do they talk about ++'s in other facings? no? thats because those other facings are not in the ion shield rules, and are not part of the ion shield.

Sanctuary
“Sanctuary counts as an ion shield. In addition, a Knight equipped with Sanctuary has a 6+ invulnerable save against each facing that is not covered by its ion shield. Sanctuary cannot be used to make saving throws against close combat attacks.”

Exalted Court
“Furthermore, before deployment, nominate one model in this Formation to be High King or Princeps of the knightly house; add 2 to this model’s Weapon Skill and Ballistic Skill characteristics and add 1 to any invulnerable saving throw this model makes for its ion shield.”

Excerpts From: Workshop, Games. “Codex: Imperial Knights (eBook Edition).

Drager wrote:
" the controlling player must declare which facing each Imperial Knight's ion shield is cover"

So you declare one facing per knight, two Ion shields still only cover the one facing declared for the Knight as declarations are per Knight not per Ion Shield.

I think.

Nope you declare 1 facing for each Knight's Ion Shield.

 easysauce wrote:
SJ come on man, you are being obtuse, I told you I read it, and that you were missing what the rules quoted actually say... im being polite and straight forward here man, at least read it objectively as you are completely ignoring the 2nd part of the rules for sanctuary. Sanctuary is and ION shield AND it provides and invul from a rule that is 100% not ion shield. rules that affect ion shield, would not affect invuls that come from other sources.


sanctuary has two parts, it counts as an ion shield, then *IN ADDITION* to counting as an ion shield, it has other rules that are not counted as an ion shield, and are explicitly stated as counting as *not covered by the ion shield*.. you seem to not be reading that second part for some reason.

note the red bit says it counts as ion shield, note the yellow bit specifically says its NOT counted as being covered by an ion shield... its just an invul covering the other sides as the rulse actuall state... ion shields only cover ONE side, not all sides, its a totally different rule then ion shield that covers the other facings... and the rules back me up to this effect when they state the *facing *NOT* covered by its ion shield*

red is ion sheild, orange is clearly something else rules that are in addition to, and separate from, ion sheild. after all, check the ion shield rules, do they talk about ++'s in other facings? no? thats because those other facings are not in the ion shield rules, and are not part of the ion shield.

Sanctuary
“Sanctuary counts as an ion shield. In addition, a Knight equipped with Sanctuary has a 6+ invulnerable save against each facing that is not covered by its ion shield. Sanctuary cannot be used to make saving throws against close combat attacks.”

Exalted Court
“Furthermore, before deployment, nominate one model in this Formation to be High King or Princeps of the knightly house; add 2 to this model’s Weapon Skill and Ballistic Skill characteristics and add 1 to any invulnerable saving throw this model makes for its ion shield.”

Excerpts From: Workshop, Games. “Codex: Imperial Knights (eBook Edition).

I blued the part where we disagree. Sanctuary counts as an Ion Shield with an addition 6++ save covering the facings the main Ion Shield is not. This makes the 6++ portion still an Ion Shield (Sanctuary), while the 4++ portion is the original Ion Shield. Therefore, any bonuses to Ion Shield saves apply to the 6++ portion as well as the 4++, of which there is only one 4++ portion.

SJ