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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/14 12:42:10
Subject: Re:Boat People
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Ferocious Black Templar Castellan
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sebster wrote:
What probably needs to be pointed out is that it's the US that grants the most people permanent refugee status each year. By a long way.
Then again, considering the US is more or less half a continent on its own, with the world's third largest population, that's not exactly shocking.
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For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/14 12:54:46
Subject: Boat People
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Scrabb wrote: Frazzled wrote: Scrabb wrote:I wish America would increase its immigration quota.
Those people who are willing and able to leave everything and go try for better are the people I want on my team.
Dude we just let 12mm people stay here. What the hell are you talking about?
People who came here illegally and had a chance to be abandoned by their coyotes and die in the desert, or people who got green cards and then stayed after they expired. I want the legal avenues to be able to handle demand so we don't have to have a national discussion about whether we should deport 12 million people or not.
You want more immigrants on top of the illegal and legal immigration we have now? We're picking up kids that go to our embassies in Central America now. Automatically Appended Next Post: AlmightyWalrus wrote: sebster wrote:
What probably needs to be pointed out is that it's the US that grants the most people permanent refugee status each year. By a long way.
Then again, considering the US is more or less half a continent on its own, with the world's third largest population, that's not exactly shocking.
Lets see 30% of your population change to foreign nationals and tell me how that works out for you.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/14 12:55:42
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/14 13:04:56
Subject: Re:Boat People
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Squatting with the squigs
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I'll take your piddling 30% and raise you by 10 and in my opinion it works rather well. I often mention how cosmopolitan Sydney is and how much I love it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Sydney
and look 'cultural ghettos'!
https://www.sydneyforum.com/threads/sydney-suburbs-by-ethinic-groups.161445/
and here's a handy dandy map.
http://voommaps.com/race_and_ethnicity_in_sydney.html
I love my city.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/05/14 13:19:52
My new blog: http://kardoorkapers.blogspot.com.au/
Manchu - "But so what? The Bible also says the flood destroyed the world. You only need an allegorical boat to tackle an allegorical flood."
Shespits "Anything i see with YOLO has half naked eleventeen year olds Girls. And of course booze and drugs and more half naked elventeen yearolds Girls. O how i wish to YOLO again!"
Rubiksnoob "Next you'll say driving a stick with a Scandinavian supermodel on your lap while ripping a bong impairs your driving. And you know what, I'M NOT GOING TO STOP, YOU FILTHY COMMUNIST" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/14 13:34:17
Subject: Boat People
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Good. You take them. Gentlemen we have a found a solution. Inform the world governments, Australia is taking everyone! More for the Killer drop bears, killer crocodiles, killer spiders, killer bunnies, and killer dirt!
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/14 13:35:30
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/14 13:41:43
Subject: Re:Boat People
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Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant
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Honestly I have no idea why would somebody support immigration as in refugees, other than to improve their public image. This is because immigration does not help anybody.
First, I will repeat myself, only the people in the best position in the country of origin get to immigrate, which means that the country will suffer from a permanent "brain-leak", because of which the country will find it hard to develop. Also, as somebody already mentioned in this thread mass immigration also supports organised crime, which is obviously bad. Also, immigration will never be a permanent solution, as no country can take enough immigrants to cause any impact, and so the situation in the country of origin will remain the same. This is also harmful, because immigration is hugely expensive for the country that takes the immigrants, which means that less money can be used to help the country from which the immigrants come.
Secondly, immigration is not only harmful for the country from which the immigrants come, but also to the country to which they will go. The biggest problem is how large immigrant communities will find it hard to integrate into the country they are living in, and will therefore form their own societies, which causes inside the self-segragated community unemployment, and crime. For example, in Sweden there are several areas which are no longer in control of the police, and ambulances can't travel into these areas. In addition, immigration is often extremely expensive to the country, which as mentioned leaves less money for public services or foreign aid. I recall, that once the anti-immigration party in Finland tried to come up with a number that would combine all the costs of immigration, and they came up with a staggeringly high number, which I recall was around 700 000 000 euros, which is very high considering how Finland takes so few immigrants with needs, less than two thousand, so it can be only speculated how many times higher this number wil be in countries with much more immigration.
All in all, it is therefore clear how immigration hurts all the participants, and foreign aid with the aim of long term improvements is a much better solution to help these countries in need of help. For example it was mentioned in this thread how horrible the conditions in the refugee camps can be, but if the money was redirected from immigration into improving these camps, far more people could be helped.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/14 13:52:41
Subject: Re:Boat People
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Hangin' with Gork & Mork
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Going by the title I thought this was going to be about people who own boats and a discussion of nautical things related to such. Was not expecting it to be an immigration thread.
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Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/14 14:05:46
Subject: Boat People
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Squatting with the squigs
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Frazzled wrote:Good. You take them. Gentlemen we have a found a solution. Inform the world governments, Australia is taking everyone! More for the Killer drop bears, killer crocodiles, killer spiders, killer bunnies, and killer dirt!
We are taking them and have done for a long time as Sydneys' ethnic diversity shows and last I looked the sky was not falling (though maybe that is what is happening to all these airliners that seem to be falling out of the sky) . We will NOT take your killer bees however, you can keep those bad things (i can't seem to spell obscenities - oh look i finally managed) over there.
In regard to ethnic crime, i think it lasts until the 2nd generation. In the 90's we had Viet crime, that has died down, we now have had Lebo/middle eastern and that seems to be dying down, and in the 1920's we had them bastard English and Irish tearing the place up, and once again that died down.
The last few gangland style killings seem to have involved east asian origin....I'm noticing a pattern here. We are probably due an African one next. Big deal, there will always be organised crime , immigration does not cause it.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/14 14:08:25
My new blog: http://kardoorkapers.blogspot.com.au/
Manchu - "But so what? The Bible also says the flood destroyed the world. You only need an allegorical boat to tackle an allegorical flood."
Shespits "Anything i see with YOLO has half naked eleventeen year olds Girls. And of course booze and drugs and more half naked elventeen yearolds Girls. O how i wish to YOLO again!"
Rubiksnoob "Next you'll say driving a stick with a Scandinavian supermodel on your lap while ripping a bong impairs your driving. And you know what, I'M NOT GOING TO STOP, YOU FILTHY COMMUNIST" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/14 14:25:42
Subject: Boat People
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Of course there's no ethnic crime there. There's no one left by the second generation. The killer flora and fauna will have killed off all the immigrants except a few dozen which you keep for Thunderdome. We know all about your tricks.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/14 20:43:31
Subject: Re:Boat People
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Battlefield Tourist
MN (Currently in WY)
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Ahtman wrote:Going by the title I thought this was going to be about people who own boats and a discussion of nautical things related to such. Was not expecting it to be an immigration thread.

I know I prefer Criscraft over the Bayliner. Bayliner's are for the plebes!
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Support Blood and Spectacles Publishing:
https://www.patreon.com/Bloodandspectaclespublishing |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/14 21:08:26
Subject: Boat People
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Foxy Wildborne
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We could stop exporting poverty, pollution and war to Asia and Africa to sustain western living standards...? Naaah.
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The old meta is dead and the new meta struggles to be born. Now is the time of munchkins. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/14 21:25:58
Subject: Boat People
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Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant
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lord_blackfang wrote:We could stop exporting poverty, pollution and war to Asia and Africa to sustain western living standards...? Naaah.
Elaborate a bit? PS was my post irrefutable or why am I getting no answers?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/14 21:49:04
Subject: Boat People
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Keeper of the Holy Orb of Antioch
avoiding the lorax on Crion
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The problem is also, how do you tell economic from refugees at times, where do we send failed refugees, there home countries will be total gak holes but if your not given asylum, you need to be sent on your way to a country willing to take ypou.
Lost of problems and grey zones.
Sometimes its not easy to tell who is what kind of migrant.
Yes asylum seekers need help and that should be honoured, but illegals should be delt with and deported. There's legal channels for immigration, no excuses.
There's a clear devide on illegal vs legal migrants and legitimate refugess and the rules should be tightly enforced.
Rescue the boat people if there sighted, its a basic law of the sea and no one wants to see someone drown and die but those found not to be genuine needy refugess have to go home.
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Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/14 22:03:20
Subject: Boat People
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Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord
Inside Yvraine
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What's the metric for defining whether someone is a refugee or "an illegal", if they both come from the same country? I.E. Dude washes up on your shore saying he's coming from Syria. How do you determine whether he's a "refugee" running from war/natural disasters, or an "illegal" which is... I don't really know what your definition of an illegal is and how it differs from a refugee.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/14 22:14:12
Subject: Re:Boat People
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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One who fills out the paperwork to claim refugee status compare to one who just cross the border with no paperwork
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Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog
Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/14 23:40:55
Subject: Re:Boat People
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Squatting with the squigs
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I don't know how that really needed explaining. It's simple, a person who does not follow the laws of the country regarding crossing borders - whether they be see or air or land - is illegal ; mitigating circumstances still make you illegal , but least there is an excuse.
I have to agree with lord blackfang, if we western countries keep exporting war we shall be importing refugees.
The last few years have seen a surge in refugees from Iraq, Afghanistan and Lybia. Add that to areas having the usual humanesque cultural persecutions that we seem to like to do and you have a much bigger problem (sudan, myanmar ect.)
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/14 23:41:13
My new blog: http://kardoorkapers.blogspot.com.au/
Manchu - "But so what? The Bible also says the flood destroyed the world. You only need an allegorical boat to tackle an allegorical flood."
Shespits "Anything i see with YOLO has half naked eleventeen year olds Girls. And of course booze and drugs and more half naked elventeen yearolds Girls. O how i wish to YOLO again!"
Rubiksnoob "Next you'll say driving a stick with a Scandinavian supermodel on your lap while ripping a bong impairs your driving. And you know what, I'M NOT GOING TO STOP, YOU FILTHY COMMUNIST" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/15 03:02:30
Subject: Boat People
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Building a blood in water scent
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What the hell would you do if your country fell apart during civil war/famine/ invasion and you had to GTFO right now?
Would you run to the border, but then live for YEARS in a stinking, dirty and dangerous refugee camp?
Or would you say "feth that", jump the border and make the best life you could given your circumstances.
People who draw a line between Refugees and Illegals are not thinking things through.
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We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'” |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/15 04:39:43
Subject: Re:Boat People
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Squatting with the squigs
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I have thought things through as I know about 15 Sudanese who did exactly option A. They couldn't afford to get anywhere else. I'd rather take them than someone who had enough money to get away.
For 2 reasons: 1. They need my countries help more
2. The don't have a university degree which will not be honoured by my country so they then have to drive a cab and feel resentful. I'd rather take the guys that are like the Sudanese I know.
I'd end up in a refugee camp as I would not have enough money to travel/eat/get shelter/pay bribes/find and pay smugglers/ get papers to travel in between other countries before I arrive at my final destination. That is what you have to do to become an illegal immigrant (at least in my country). i HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT IT.
Knowing those guys changed my mind from taking the rich who manage to get here and taking the poor who couldn't.
Nothing changes the fact that they are illegal immigrants. You may not like the term, but that is what they are. Illegal. Till they are processed they are all illegal immigrants.
If you do not follow the law and do not have the paperwork you are doing something illegal. If I overstay my visa in a country then I am doing something illegal.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2015/05/15 04:54:22
My new blog: http://kardoorkapers.blogspot.com.au/
Manchu - "But so what? The Bible also says the flood destroyed the world. You only need an allegorical boat to tackle an allegorical flood."
Shespits "Anything i see with YOLO has half naked eleventeen year olds Girls. And of course booze and drugs and more half naked elventeen yearolds Girls. O how i wish to YOLO again!"
Rubiksnoob "Next you'll say driving a stick with a Scandinavian supermodel on your lap while ripping a bong impairs your driving. And you know what, I'M NOT GOING TO STOP, YOU FILTHY COMMUNIST" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/15 05:55:54
Subject: Re:Boat People
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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AlmightyWalrus wrote:Then again, considering the US is more or less half a continent on its own, with the world's third largest population, that's not exactly shocking.
It isn't shocking, but the number the US takes, measured relative to their population, is really high compared to just about everyone else. It's about 50% higher than Australia, for instance, and we're the third highest per capita.
Credit where credit is due, the US is really strong on this issue.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Frazzled wrote:Lets see 30% of your population change to foreign nationals and tell me how that works out for you.
Once again, refugee intake and general immigration are not the same thing. The former is a tiny fraction of the latter.
Also, Americans assuming their country is uniquely multicultural is getting really boring. Australia has the highest proportion of 1st and 2nd generation migrants in the world. Automatically Appended Next Post: Sienisoturi wrote:All in all, it is therefore clear how immigration hurts all the participants, and foreign aid with the aim of long term improvements is a much better solution to help these countries in need of help. For example it was mentioned in this thread how horrible the conditions in the refugee camps can be, but if the money was redirected from immigration into improving these camps, far more people could be helped.
Wow. I mean, the modern anti-refugee thing is wrong in all sorts of ways, but at least it comes from a plausible sounding starting point. But general anti-immigration? Especially the claim that the nations receiving migrants are hurt by the process? That’s comically silly.
I mean, when you start listing the basket case countries, how far down the list do you go before you get to the USA and Australia? Because that’s two countries which are basically immigrant countries from their inception, and in the case of the US it’s been a multi-cultural immigrant nation for a very long time now.
The historic case for the positive impact of immigration is very simple, and very clear. And now, with declining birth rates around 2 per woman, and lower than that in some cases, the only way to avoid shocking demographic problems is with immigration. Go read about the issues in Japan, and then come back and re-read your post.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2015/05/15 06:15:03
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/15 07:52:31
Subject: Boat People
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Keeper of the Holy Orb of Antioch
avoiding the lorax on Crion
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There is a difference between a refugee case and illegal immigrant, one however things go starts a case, and gets temp, permanent or refused asylum.
Thee other comes from same place but goes entirely unrecorded, most like paid in cash, exploited by under belly of business, or worse. Some have even been trateed like slaves as there illegal, there unrecorded, no one knows them and they have no protection and mighttnnot even speak the language.
One deserves help, the illegal immigrant if you did not follow your laws on it, why should anyone else? If there caught they need to follow through with the various required cases or procedures, of course some may be deserving of a asylum cases others deportation.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/15 08:06:09
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/15 11:02:12
Subject: Boat People
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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feeder wrote:What the hell would you do if your country fell apart during civil war/famine/ invasion and you had to GTFO right now?
Would you run to the border, but then live for YEARS in a stinking, dirty and dangerous refugee camp?
Or would you say "feth that", jump the border and make the best life you could given your circumstances.
People who draw a line between Refugees and Illegals are not thinking things through.
As a Texan I would do what comes natural. Invade Mexico.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/15 12:31:16
Subject: Re:Boat People
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Fixture of Dakka
CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence
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From the article in the OP:
Officials say 1m migrants are camped on the southern shore of the Mediterranean, waiting to embark on a life that is incomparably better than the one they are leaving behind. The Arab world is engulfed in fighting that is likely to last decades and which has set whole nations adrift. Chunks of Africa are prey to sectarian and ethnic strife and to environmental depredation. An enclave of stability and wealth in an ocean of violence, Europe has not begun to grapple with the choices ahead.
There are Palestinian 'refugee camps' that are actually large cities with 3rd generation folks plus whomever they marry still considered 'refugees' being administered by UNRWA. and have been for decades. To still call them 'refugee camps' is ludicrous. The number of 'refugees' has grown from 700k to over 5 million, NOT by new refugees arriving, but by natural population growth because UNRWA goes with some asinine patrilineal method of determining who will get the refugee benefits that come with the moniker.
Let these folks camped out develop their own governance and maybe help them with resources to build infrastructure. Give those willing to actually defend themselves and their families some training and let them set up a semiautonomous state like the Kurds have in Northern Iraq. They want peace and stability? Give them the chance to fight for it and earn it. The sad truth is the numbers trying to cross are not folks that for the most part are not going to assimilate and are going to be bringing many of the problems they are running from to Europe. Put a LOT more pressure on the Saudis and other nations in the region to take care of their own problems.
The Jordanians allowed in a ton of refugees at our prompting and it has basically lead to them losing control over a portion of Jordan and opened up that population to further radicalization and recruiting by DaEsh and other groups. What makes anyone think Italy, France, Spain or whomever would avoid that happening when they bring in similar numbers of a similar population?
It may be harsh, but until the Sunni and Shia can learn to live together and the various governments in the region stop funding and using proxy groups like Hamas and Hez to feth with each other, it will get worse before it gets better. Importing those problems exacerbated by taking in how ever many folks want to leave and would require significant government aid (housing, medical, food and so on) is a huge cost to assume and I don't thin the EU nor the US is in a position to take those on. Maybe the Kingdom should relook funding the spread of Wahhabism/Salafism and focus on promoting stability. Maybe Iran should quit sending Quds force guys and their Hez bridge brethren to destabilize their neighbors.
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Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/15 12:40:29
Subject: Re:Boat People
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Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant
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Sienisoturi wrote:All in all, it is therefore clear how immigration hurts all the participants, and foreign aid with the aim of long term improvements is a much better solution to help these countries in need of help. For example it was mentioned in this thread how horrible the conditions in the refugee camps can be, but if the money was redirected from immigration into improving these camps, far more people could be helped.
Wow. I mean, the modern anti-refugee thing is wrong in all sorts of ways, but at least it comes from a plausible sounding starting point. But general anti-immigration? Especially the claim that the nations receiving migrants are hurt by the process? That’s comically silly.
I mean, when you start listing the basket case countries, how far down the list do you go before you get to the USA and Australia? Because that’s two countries which are basically immigrant countries from their inception, and in the case of the US it’s been a multi-cultural immigrant nation for a very long time now.
The historic case for the positive impact of immigration is very simple, and very clear. And now, with declining birth rates around 2 per woman, and lower than that in some cases, the only way to avoid shocking demographic problems is with immigration. Go read about the issues in Japan, and then come back and re-read your post.
I hope you did not miss the part in the start where I said how my post was mainly about refugees, and I do apologise any confusion. It is also worth noting how the imigration which was the basis of US differs quite a lot from lets say the boat people that Australia receives. This arguably is mainly caused by the differences in societies, as when US was built any imigrants that arrived were only given land, and therefore they were forced to work hard in order to survive, and most likely in order to do this they also had to integrate quite well, as often they were the only people that could speak their language for a couple of miles. This is then completely different from the modern refugees, as often there is very little incentive to integrate, as all the services can be accessed by their own language, and there is no absolute need to do work. It can of course be argued, that with bigger efforts in integration these adverse effects in taking refugees can be avoided. Also, can you provide me a modern day example of a country that would benefit greatly from taking refugees, as times have changed quite a lot from the 1800's.
Could you please elaborate a bit on what is so wrong with opposing imigration, when I clearly pointed out how it realy brings no good. For Japan and other countries with an aging population, the problems that are coming with that are exagorated. Often it is mentioned how the larger generation that were born post WWII will crash the economy, but most countriews have already entered a stage at which these people are no longer in the working population, and instead need medical help to survive, and yet these countries are doing reasonably well still. Also, the problems with a too small working population can't realy be solved by taking refugees, as due to the poor integration it will effectively only increase unemployment.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/15 13:55:36
Subject: Boat People
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Hallowed Canoness
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Is this thread about Terry? Terry from the Gas Works?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcVZONSXW4Y
Sorry, terrible joke, but I could not resist.
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"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/15 15:52:11
Subject: Boat People
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Ferocious Black Templar Castellan
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Sienisoturi wrote: lord_blackfang wrote:We could stop exporting poverty, pollution and war to Asia and Africa to sustain western living standards...? Naaah.
Elaborate a bit? PS was my post irrefutable or why am I getting no answers?
EU and US farm subsidies and tariffs means third-world farmers no longer have any job, and thus no means of survival.
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For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/15 15:54:25
Subject: Re:Boat People
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Squatting with the squigs
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Sienisoturi wrote: Sienisoturi wrote:All in all, it is therefore clear how immigration hurts all the participants, and foreign aid with the aim of long term improvements is a much better solution to help these countries in need of help. For example it was mentioned in this thread how horrible the conditions in the refugee camps can be, but if the money was redirected from immigration into improving these camps, far more people could be helped.
Wow. I mean, the modern anti-refugee thing is wrong in all sorts of ways, but at least it comes from a plausible sounding starting point. But general anti-immigration? Especially the claim that the nations receiving migrants are hurt by the process? That’s comically silly.
I mean, when you start listing the basket case countries, how far down the list do you go before you get to the USA and Australia? Because that’s two countries which are basically immigrant countries from their inception, and in the case of the US it’s been a multi-cultural immigrant nation for a very long time now.
The historic case for the positive impact of immigration is very simple, and very clear. And now, with declining birth rates around 2 per woman, and lower than that in some cases, the only way to avoid shocking demographic problems is with immigration. Go read about the issues in Japan, and then come back and re-read your post.
I hope you did not miss the part in the start where I said how my post was mainly about refugees, and I do apologise any confusion. It is also worth noting how the imigration which was the basis of US differs quite a lot from lets say the boat people that Australia receives. This arguably is mainly caused by the differences in societies, as when US was built any imigrants that arrived were only given land, and therefore they were forced to work hard in order to survive, and most likely in order to do this they also had to integrate quite well, as often they were the only people that could speak their language for a couple of miles. This is then completely different from the modern refugees, as often there is very little incentive to integrate, as all the services can be accessed by their own language, and there is no absolute need to do work. It can of course be argued, that with bigger efforts in integration these adverse effects in taking refugees can be avoided. Also, can you provide me a modern day example of a country that would benefit greatly from taking refugees, as times have changed quite a lot from the 1800's.
Could you please elaborate a bit on what is so wrong with opposing imigration, when I clearly pointed out how it realy brings no good. For Japan and other countries with an aging population, the problems that are coming with that are exagorated. Often it is mentioned how the larger generation that were born post WWII will crash the economy, but most countriews have already entered a stage at which these people are no longer in the working population, and instead need medical help to survive, and yet these countries are doing reasonably well still. Also, the problems with a too small working population can't realy be solved by taking refugees, as due to the poor integration it will effectively only increase unemployment.
See, this above this is what I hate.
Immigration is always good. At the very least it brings unskilled people to fulfill the work roles left unfilled when too many people are going to university. <- that's the cynic view.
IT brings a greater understanding of the world around you when you get to socialise with everyone. Them scary muslims? Wow, they are just the same as everyone else but they go to church on a different day.
It brings a better understanding of world politics and history. As someone who is very interested in this I cannot tell you how much value i have got from talking to both people who class themselves as Phoenecian and Lebanese. THat's just one example. Being insular is the death of a countries brain, seeing other viewpoints gains you new perspectives and insights.
YOur crime angle is bunk, I addressed that a few posts up.
The main difference between refugees and immigrants is the amount of rescources it takes to fit them in. MY first inKling of this was talking to a Sri Lankan Tamil and he said "the secret of the Sri Lankan community is the amount of us that are under counselling" the more i thought about it the more it made sense. The longer a country is in chaos the longer the people need to take to adapt to an ordered society and the experiences they suffered. This is the real cost of refugees.
Australia benefits from taking Immigrants. Refugees just have a larger cost associated with them.
IF the first generation have little incentive to integrate then the 2nd or 3rd makes them. feth me, i feel like i am preaching against Pauline Hansons' One Nation Party.
If you want anyone to assimilate to your culture you need to move as far to them as they move to you. It's not that they need to become faux Australians , both of you need to change to accept one another.
Australia is growing country. Sydney has a 40% firstborn migrant community, things are clearly going bad here
Every day I talk to anglos, slavs, koreans, lebanese, italians, greeks, islanders, and thais, syrians, iraquis, paliis, pakis, south americans , and thankfully the US less so  and that's just doing my job. Weirdly, we all get on and enjoy each others company. It is not destroying anything but rather growing a vibrant community.
It's about not being scared and looking how you can benefit from those around you. They look, act and talk different sure....but they are the same. They want peace, money and family. Same as everyone.
Embrace the difference and you will find yourself a better person.
PS. when I was young I was very right wing and anti- . I ended up working with a LOT of people from other backgrounds and i realised my anti- was my fear. It's liberating to drop the fear.
So they have a fething rag on their head, so what? 80 years ago every westerner had a rag on their head in the form of a hat.
No fething difference.
I hope the above lines don't get modded as I believe they are poignant .
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My new blog: http://kardoorkapers.blogspot.com.au/
Manchu - "But so what? The Bible also says the flood destroyed the world. You only need an allegorical boat to tackle an allegorical flood."
Shespits "Anything i see with YOLO has half naked eleventeen year olds Girls. And of course booze and drugs and more half naked elventeen yearolds Girls. O how i wish to YOLO again!"
Rubiksnoob "Next you'll say driving a stick with a Scandinavian supermodel on your lap while ripping a bong impairs your driving. And you know what, I'M NOT GOING TO STOP, YOU FILTHY COMMUNIST" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/15 16:18:33
Subject: Re:Boat People
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Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces
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Bullockist wrote: Sienisoturi wrote: Sienisoturi wrote:All in all, it is therefore clear how immigration hurts all the participants, and foreign aid with the aim of long term improvements is a much better solution to help these countries in need of help. For example it was mentioned in this thread how horrible the conditions in the refugee camps can be, but if the money was redirected from immigration into improving these camps, far more people could be helped. Wow. I mean, the modern anti-refugee thing is wrong in all sorts of ways, but at least it comes from a plausible sounding starting point. But general anti-immigration? Especially the claim that the nations receiving migrants are hurt by the process? That’s comically silly. I mean, when you start listing the basket case countries, how far down the list do you go before you get to the USA and Australia? Because that’s two countries which are basically immigrant countries from their inception, and in the case of the US it’s been a multi-cultural immigrant nation for a very long time now. The historic case for the positive impact of immigration is very simple, and very clear. And now, with declining birth rates around 2 per woman, and lower than that in some cases, the only way to avoid shocking demographic problems is with immigration. Go read about the issues in Japan, and then come back and re-read your post. I hope you did not miss the part in the start where I said how my post was mainly about refugees, and I do apologise any confusion. It is also worth noting how the imigration which was the basis of US differs quite a lot from lets say the boat people that Australia receives. This arguably is mainly caused by the differences in societies, as when US was built any imigrants that arrived were only given land, and therefore they were forced to work hard in order to survive, and most likely in order to do this they also had to integrate quite well, as often they were the only people that could speak their language for a couple of miles. This is then completely different from the modern refugees, as often there is very little incentive to integrate, as all the services can be accessed by their own language, and there is no absolute need to do work. It can of course be argued, that with bigger efforts in integration these adverse effects in taking refugees can be avoided. Also, can you provide me a modern day example of a country that would benefit greatly from taking refugees, as times have changed quite a lot from the 1800's. Could you please elaborate a bit on what is so wrong with opposing imigration, when I clearly pointed out how it realy brings no good. For Japan and other countries with an aging population, the problems that are coming with that are exagorated. Often it is mentioned how the larger generation that were born post WWII will crash the economy, but most countriews have already entered a stage at which these people are no longer in the working population, and instead need medical help to survive, and yet these countries are doing reasonably well still. Also, the problems with a too small working population can't realy be solved by taking refugees, as due to the poor integration it will effectively only increase unemployment. See, this above this is what I hate. Immigration is always good. At the very least it brings unskilled people to fulfill the work roles left unfilled when too many people are going to university. <- that's the cynic view. IT brings a greater understanding of the world around you when you get to socialise with everyone. Them scary muslims? Wow, they are just the same as everyone else but they go to church on a different day. It brings a better understanding of world politics and history. As someone who is very interested in this I cannot tell you how much value i have got from talking to both people who class themselves as Phoenecian and Lebanese. THat's just one example. Being insular is the death of a countries brain, seeing other viewpoints gains you new perspectives and insights. YOur crime angle is bunk, I addressed that a few posts up. The main difference between refugees and immigrants is the amount of rescources it takes to fit them in. MY first inKling of this was talking to a Sri Lankan Tamil and he said "the secret of the Sri Lankan community is the amount of us that are under counselling" the more i thought about it the more it made sense. The longer a country is in chaos the longer the people need to take to adapt to an ordered society and the experiences they suffered. This is the real cost of refugees. Australia benefits from taking Immigrants. Refugees just have a larger cost associated with them. IF the first generation have little incentive to integrate then the 2nd or 3rd makes them. feth me, i feel like i am preaching against Pauline Hansons' One Nation Party. If you want anyone to assimilate to your culture you need to move as far to them as they move to you. It's not that they need to become faux Australians , both of you need to change to accept one another. Australia is growing country. Sydney has a 40% firstborn migrant community, things are clearly going bad here Every day I talk to anglos, slavs, koreans, lebanese, italians, greeks, islanders, and thais, syrians, iraquis, paliis, pakis, south americans , and thankfully the US less so  and that's just doing my job. Weirdly, we all get on and enjoy each others company. It is not destroying anything but rather growing a vibrant community. It's about not being scared and looking how you can benefit from those around you. They look, act and talk different sure....but they are the same. They want peace, money and family. Same as everyone. Embrace the difference and you will find yourself a better person. PS. when I was young I was very right wing and anti- . I ended up working with a LOT of people from other backgrounds and i realised my anti- was my fear. It's liberating to drop the fear. So they have a fething rag on their head, so what? 80 years ago every westerner had a rag on their head in the form of a hat. No fething difference. I hope the above lines don't get modded as I believe they are poignant .
That may be true for immigrant nations such as Australia or the US, but in established nation-states that have been ethnically "pure" (with that I mean having just one single dominant ethnicity) for many centuries, you often get conflicts when the culture of the immigrants is radically different from the one of the indigenous population. The established nation is unable and unwilling to change their ways because this would take away the entire basis for the nation-state, while the immigrants refuse to adapt because this means they would completely lose their own culture. There even does not need to be an established state, as the indigenous people will often see the culture of the immigrants (and having to adapt to it) as a threat to its own identity and culture anyways. Such conflicts often turn violent. (as in the case of Australia where most of indigenous population was wiped out by immigrants). Nation-states are nasty things. They need cultural and ethnical uniformity in order to function. Diversity threatens their existential base. You can call on people to just change and accept each other, but that is naive. People are not going to change, especially not when there is a lot of them and they feel they are right. It is human nature to want to preserve the status-quo and dislike those that are "different". Immigration is often not positive. Many conflicts have been fought as a result of tensions between immigrants and indigenous populations. Much blood has been spilled over culture and ethnicity in the past, and more will be spilt in the future. That is never going to change.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/15 16:21:36
Error 404: Interesting signature not found
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/15 16:25:41
Subject: Re:Boat People
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Squatting with the squigs
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OH feth off.
You mean to tell me a nation state such as Russia with it's myriad of cultures already existing, can't handle a miniscule amount of refugees as that would destabalise society? How the hell did the USSR manage all those outlying states then? ALL the STans , plus the jewish territory, the fins, the poles absorbed, feth the USSR was SO pure. I hope you don't get any non Russian immigrants. Of course invading Kiev might not be a good move to make then
Russia would have to be one of the most multicultural countries about. I read a book on 19th century russian imperialism and it was very eye opening, I never knew that there was a large Korean workforce in russia. and all the reindeer men. afghanis, ect
hmmmmm, you normally take the piss, maybe i fell into the trap.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/05/15 16:31:26
My new blog: http://kardoorkapers.blogspot.com.au/
Manchu - "But so what? The Bible also says the flood destroyed the world. You only need an allegorical boat to tackle an allegorical flood."
Shespits "Anything i see with YOLO has half naked eleventeen year olds Girls. And of course booze and drugs and more half naked elventeen yearolds Girls. O how i wish to YOLO again!"
Rubiksnoob "Next you'll say driving a stick with a Scandinavian supermodel on your lap while ripping a bong impairs your driving. And you know what, I'M NOT GOING TO STOP, YOU FILTHY COMMUNIST" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/15 16:58:58
Subject: Re:Boat People
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Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces
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Bullockist wrote:OH feth off.
You mean to tell me a nation state such as Russia with it's myriad of cultures already existing, can't handle a miniscule amount of refugees as that would destabalise society? How the hell did the USSR manage all those outlying states then? ALL the STans , plus the jewish territory, the fins, the poles absorbed, feth the USSR was SO pure. I hope you don't get any non Russian immigrants. Of course invading Kiev might not be a good move to make then
Russia would have to be one of the most multicultural countries about. I read a book on 19th century russian imperialism and it was very eye opening, I never knew that there was a large Korean workforce in russia. and all the reindeer men. afghanis, ect
hmmmmm, you normally take the piss, maybe i fell into the trap.
The many different peoples of Russia are not immigrants, they are indigenous population and have lived alongside ethnic Russians for centuries. Russia is not a nation-state, nor has ever been. Many people don't know, but Russia has always been a multiethnic society from its very first days (it was even founded by Swedes). Russia has always been a multicultural place, and therefore relatively tolerant towards different cultures.
Even for very "pure" nation-states (take the Netherlands here as example), a small amount of immigrants is not a problem. But when the immigrants get very numerous, they become more and more resented and start becoming a destabilising factor (we see this now in the Netherlands). Even multiethnic societies have their limits (such as Moscow and its Caucasian immigrant problem). It all depends on the number of immigrants and on how different the cultures are. The Caucasians are recent immigrants, very numerous and concentrated in certain areas (Moscow). This causes the native population of Moscow to feel threatened because they lose their jobs to immigrants and the immigrant's culture conflicts with their own.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/15 19:12:50
Subject: Boat People
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Fixture of Dakka
CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence
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Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/19 21:29:34
Subject: Re:Boat People
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Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant
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Bullockist wrote: Sienisoturi wrote: Sienisoturi wrote:All in all, it is therefore clear how immigration hurts all the participants, and foreign aid with the aim of long term improvements is a much better solution to help these countries in need of help. For example it was mentioned in this thread how horrible the conditions in the refugee camps can be, but if the money was redirected from immigration into improving these camps, far more people could be helped.
Wow. I mean, the modern anti-refugee thing is wrong in all sorts of ways, but at least it comes from a plausible sounding starting point. But general anti-immigration? Especially the claim that the nations receiving migrants are hurt by the process? That’s comically silly.
I mean, when you start listing the basket case countries, how far down the list do you go before you get to the USA and Australia? Because that’s two countries which are basically immigrant countries from their inception, and in the case of the US it’s been a multi-cultural immigrant nation for a very long time now.
The historic case for the positive impact of immigration is very simple, and very clear. And now, with declining birth rates around 2 per woman, and lower than that in some cases, the only way to avoid shocking demographic problems is with immigration. Go read about the issues in Japan, and then come back and re-read your post.
I hope you did not miss the part in the start where I said how my post was mainly about refugees, and I do apologise any confusion. It is also worth noting how the imigration which was the basis of US differs quite a lot from lets say the boat people that Australia receives. This arguably is mainly caused by the differences in societies, as when US was built any imigrants that arrived were only given land, and therefore they were forced to work hard in order to survive, and most likely in order to do this they also had to integrate quite well, as often they were the only people that could speak their language for a couple of miles. This is then completely different from the modern refugees, as often there is very little incentive to integrate, as all the services can be accessed by their own language, and there is no absolute need to do work. It can of course be argued, that with bigger efforts in integration these adverse effects in taking refugees can be avoided. Also, can you provide me a modern day example of a country that would benefit greatly from taking refugees, as times have changed quite a lot from the 1800's.
Could you please elaborate a bit on what is so wrong with opposing imigration, when I clearly pointed out how it realy brings no good. For Japan and other countries with an aging population, the problems that are coming with that are exagorated. Often it is mentioned how the larger generation that were born post WWII will crash the economy, but most countriews have already entered a stage at which these people are no longer in the working population, and instead need medical help to survive, and yet these countries are doing reasonably well still. Also, the problems with a too small working population can't realy be solved by taking refugees, as due to the poor integration it will effectively only increase unemployment.
See, this above this is what I hate.
Immigration is always good. At the very least it brings unskilled people to fulfill the work roles left unfilled when too many people are going to university. <- that's the cynic view.
IT brings a greater understanding of the world around you when you get to socialise with everyone. Them scary muslims? Wow, they are just the same as everyone else but they go to church on a different day.
It brings a better understanding of world politics and history. As someone who is very interested in this I cannot tell you how much value i have got from talking to both people who class themselves as Phoenecian and Lebanese. THat's just one example. Being insular is the death of a countries brain, seeing other viewpoints gains you new perspectives and insights.
YOur crime angle is bunk, I addressed that a few posts up.
The main difference between refugees and immigrants is the amount of rescources it takes to fit them in. MY first inKling of this was talking to a Sri Lankan Tamil and he said "the secret of the Sri Lankan community is the amount of us that are under counselling" the more i thought about it the more it made sense. The longer a country is in chaos the longer the people need to take to adapt to an ordered society and the experiences they suffered. This is the real cost of refugees.
Australia benefits from taking Immigrants. Refugees just have a larger cost associated with them.
IF the first generation have little incentive to integrate then the 2nd or 3rd makes them. feth me, i feel like i am preaching against Pauline Hansons' One Nation Party.
If you want anyone to assimilate to your culture you need to move as far to them as they move to you. It's not that they need to become faux Australians , both of you need to change to accept one another.
Australia is growing country. Sydney has a 40% firstborn migrant community, things are clearly going bad here
Every day I talk to anglos, slavs, koreans, lebanese, italians, greeks, islanders, and thais, syrians, iraquis, paliis, pakis, south americans , and thankfully the US less so  and that's just doing my job. Weirdly, we all get on and enjoy each others company. It is not destroying anything but rather growing a vibrant community.
It's about not being scared and looking how you can benefit from those around you. They look, act and talk different sure....but they are the same. They want peace, money and family. Same as everyone.
Embrace the difference and you will find yourself a better person.
PS. when I was young I was very right wing and anti- . I ended up working with a LOT of people from other backgrounds and i realised my anti- was my fear. It's liberating to drop the fear.
So they have a fething rag on their head, so what? 80 years ago every westerner had a rag on their head in the form of a hat.
No fething difference.
I hope the above lines don't get modded as I believe they are poignant .
Sorry to post a bit late, but here are some points that I would like to bring up. Your quotes are underlighted.
"Immigration is always good. At the very least it brings unskilled people to fulfill the work roles left unfilled when too many people are going to university. <- that's the cynic view."
Have you though considered that bringing a lot of labor from foreigh countries will decrease wages in the native population, as the suply increase more than the demand?
"It brings a better understanding of world politics and history. As someone who is very interested in this I cannot tell you how much value i have got from talking to both people who class themselves as Phoenecian and Lebanese. THat's just one example. Being insular is the death of a countries brain, seeing other viewpoints gains you new perspectives and insights."
But couldn't you visit those places or learn about them through media instead? Also, as this clearly is based around personal preference, isn't it arguably immoral to make other people pay the costs of immigration also through taxes for the sake of personal preference?
"YOur crime angle is bunk, I addressed that a few posts up."
It might be true that most imigrants will integrate, but I doubt that you took into account these "ghettos", that seem to have the opposite effect, which means that the crime rate will in fact increase.
"If you want anyone to assimilate to your culture you need to move as far to them as they move to you. It's not that they need to become faux Australians , both of you need to change to accept one another."
Why would somebody support that, considering that along mass imigration that's effect would be that the native culture is altered/destroyed?
"PS. when I was young I was very right wing and anti- . I ended up working with a LOT of people from other backgrounds and i realised my anti- was my fear. It's liberating to drop the fear."
I am fairly certain that I have enough experience about immigration considering that I am an immigrant myself.
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