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 Ghazkuul wrote:
How can you punish a team as harshly as Goodell did based on a report that specifically says they couldn't find hard evidence or proof.

Because there's a huge difference between "we can't find absolute proof that would meet the standards of a criminal case" and "we're not sure about this". Brady very clearly cheated and knew exactly what was going on, even if the NFL can't prove it beyond any possible doubt.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
How can you punish a team as harshly as Goodell did based on a report that specifically says they couldn't find hard evidence or proof.

Because there's a huge difference between "we can't find absolute proof that would meet the standards of a criminal case" and "we're not sure about this". Brady very clearly cheated and knew exactly what was going on, even if the NFL can't prove it beyond any possible doubt.

So in a case where they can't prove anything the Patriots should be fined 1million dollars, lose 2 draft picks and their starting quarterback for 4 games.

In a case where 3 separate teams were found to be cheating with CONCLUSIVE evidence, 2 teams were given a warning and 1 team was fined something stupid like 25k. Please explain that

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Chancetragedy wrote:
I'll just leave this here, launched by the patriots today.

http://wellsreportcontext.com


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Initial thoughts on that website. It's a horrendous misstep and a terrible terrible idea by the patriots.

I disagree, I think the patriots are well within their rights to blast the hell out of that useless report and to paint both the wells report and Goodell as useless and biased. The fact that the report specifically fails to blame Brady or the Patriots is the reason I say this. How can you punish a team as harshly as Goodell did based on a report that specifically says they couldn't find hard evidence or proof.

I agree with your sentiment, but it's clear you haven't read the website. It's frankly embarrassing some of the patriots "explanations" for the texts and some of the other stuff. Some of it I agree with but a lot of it makes the patriots look so guilty and I was 1000% on the patriots side until this, now I'm really starting to rethink my stance on their postion.

This also makes me think the patriots are not going to be taking an appeal to court as you don't come out and lay all your cards on the table if you were going to.

What are the odds that someone was just sitting on a website called wellsreportcontext all this time?

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
How can you punish a team as harshly as Goodell did based on a report that specifically says they couldn't find hard evidence or proof.

Because there's a huge difference between "we can't find absolute proof that would meet the standards of a criminal case" and "we're not sure about this". Brady very clearly cheated and knew exactly what was going on, even if the NFL can't prove it beyond any possible doubt.

Wait...I think you had a brain fart or something?

"Brady very clearly cheated and knew exactly what was going on, even if the NFL can't prove it beyond any possible doubt."

Huh...okay - so essentially - the NFL can't prove it but we "clearly" know what is going on. That is an idiotic statement if if ever seen one.

On to more serious matters of dumbfethery - Refs can't even recall which gauged was used to measure the footballs at the start of the game (out of 2). Of these gauges it's been found that they don't produce consistent pressure readings with each other. Meaning you have no baseline and therefore can't even prove the balls were in fact under inflated and or properly inflated to begin with. Interestingly - 3/4 of the colts balls were also "underinflated" at half time (shall we just ignore this part). Also - 0 connection to Brady in any way other than a "more likely than not assumption" (not my opinion - it's the investigators own words). Get outta here man.

Here's my prediction to all you butt hurt patriot haters. Brady won't miss a single game because of this. Brady is GOAT.

Except that in the wells report the refs could recall what gauge they used, then wells had them say "it's certainly possible" to using a different gauge then Wells goes on to claim they said they "used the other gauge" because if he went on what the refs recalled it exonerates the patriots completely. But so many facts were completely disregarded because they didn't fit the NFL agenda.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Interestingly - 3/4 of the colts balls were also "underinflated" at half time (shall we just ignore this part).

Incorrect. All of the colts balls were within the rules.

Source: http://fox59.com/2015/05/06/deflategate-report-finds-it-probable-patriots-deflated-balls-brady-generally-aware/

According to the timeline of events laid out in the report, all but two of the Patriots’ game balls were properly inflated during the pregame inspection. Two tested below 12.5 psi, the low end of the threshold for game balls. The Colts’ game balls all tested at 13.1 or 13.0 psi, although “one or two footballs may have registered 12.8 or 12.9.” The report said it was evident the Colts were targeting 13.0 psi for their footballs, which were all within the “permissible range.”

Furthermore:

Each of the Patriots’ 11 footballs tested at halftime measured below the 12.5 psi benchmark. Four Colts balls tested were between 12.5 and 13.5 psi. Only four of the Colts’ balls were tested because officials were running out of time before the start of the second half. The Patriots’ footballs were inflated to proper levels for the rest of the game.

Kronk that's wrong. Read page 69 and 73 of the wells report. 1 gauge measure 3/4 colts balls at under 12.5.

Weird. That article pulled from the Wells report.

So what this boils down to is a witch hunt and we all knew it from the start.

This is what I've been harping on the entire time haha. there is so much misinformation going on its crazy. Anybody who has actually read the wells report understands what a crock it is and how biased it is it's crazy.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
So in a case where they can't prove anything the Patriots should be fined 1million dollars, lose 2 draft picks and their starting quarterback for 4 games.

In a case where 3 separate teams were found to be cheating with CONCLUSIVE evidence, 2 teams were given a warning and 1 team was fined something stupid like 25k. Please explain that

The other teams should have been punished more for cheating with the balls. Though, to be fair, their losing records are kind of their own punishment. That's probably why nobody really cared about Atlanta using fake crowd noise and still having a terrible season.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
How can you punish a team as harshly as Goodell did based on a report that specifically says they couldn't find hard evidence or proof.

Because there's a huge difference between "we can't find absolute proof that would meet the standards of a criminal case" and "we're not sure about this". Brady very clearly cheated and knew exactly what was going on, even if the NFL can't prove it beyond any possible doubt.

Again, I'll direct you to Jonathan Vilma's case during the Bounties thing in New Orleans.

Brady isn't going to miss a game, and the NFL is going to have egg on it's face, again.

Chancetragedy wrote:
Kronk that's wrong. Read page 69 and 73 of the wells report. 1 gauge measure 3/4 colts balls at under 12.5.

Are you going with the "crooked needle" theory?

 Xenomancers wrote:
Huh...okay - so essentially - the NFL can't prove it but we "clearly" know what is going on. That is an idiotic statement if if ever seen one.

No, you just don't understand the difference between absolute proof and proof beyond any reasonable doubt. The fact that nobody has a video of the balls being deflated or a signed confession from Brady is irrelevant because there's no other plausible explanation for the facts. We know that:

1) The balls were under-inflated.

2) A Patriots employee was caught on camera taking the balls into a bathroom after walking past other, more convenient, bathrooms.

3) No low-level employee is going to tamper with the balls used by the team's future-hall-of-fame quarterback without that quarterback's permission.

Any alternative theory for what was going on is about as plausible as the conspiracy theories about black helicopters and mind control in the chemtrails.

 dogma wrote:

Chancetragedy wrote:
Kronk that's wrong. Read page 69 and 73 of the wells report. 1 gauge measure 3/4 colts balls at under 12.5.

Are you going with the "crooked needle" theory?

Crooked needle theory? No theory here, I'm basing my arguments on facts presented in the wells report not the spin attached to it. Science in the wells report proves that the patriots balls measured at half time of AFCCG show that due to the ideal gas law 8/11 patriots footballs were in the expected range of PSI loss. And 2 of those that were out of range were less than .2 psi out of that range. So 10/11 patriots footballs were within normal error of what science proves. In my mind this shows there was zero tampering on footballs that the refs state explicitly were set to 12.5-12.6PSI at the start of the game.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
So in a case where they can't prove anything the Patriots should be fined 1million dollars, lose 2 draft picks and their starting quarterback for 4 games.

In a case where 3 separate teams were found to be cheating with CONCLUSIVE evidence, 2 teams were given a warning and 1 team was fined something stupid like 25k. Please explain that

The other teams should have been punished more for cheating with the balls. Though, to be fair, their losing records are kind of their own punishment. That's probably why nobody really cared about Atlanta using fake crowd noise and still having a terrible season.

It could also be a situation where we have a timeline.... I'd bet that the NFL, in warning the first team caught with flat balls, the NFL sent that exact same warning to the whole league. The second team, if a bit later in time, the League resent the warning, this time reinforcing the idea that this applies to EVERYONE, not just the team caught. 3rd team the League is like, "OK guys, clearly you aren't getting the message, give me 25k... STOP DOING THIS!!!!" Then the Pats get caught, and by now they have to be, "for feths sake guys!! how bloody hard is it to keep a ball inflated right!?"



Also, the League doesn't have to operate under the "innocent until proven guilty" logic that actual law does.... Just because they cannot reasonably prove anything, clearly in someone's mind up there, the Patriots couldn't clearly disprove the charges, and are thus being punished.

I think the site is a real mistake, and makes it look like *THEY* think their legacy hangs in the balance. It doesn't, at least not in the sense of their SB wins being in jeopardy, etc. As far as the actual penalties go:

4-game suspension -- They'll gut their way through those games and post the best record they can, then try to hit the ground running after Brady returns. The AFC East is the opposite of a murderer's row.

Fine -- Pocket change for Kraft; who cares.

Loss of draft picks -- Stings, but the roster repercussions won't truly be felt until 2018, maybe 2019. At that point, Brady and Belichick might both be retired, and stinking for a couple years might be the best course of action for a rebuild anyway.

If they felt the need to vent, then release a short statement saying WE WUZ ROBBED, BUT WE'RE MOVING ON. And then move on.

 gorgon wrote:
I think the site is a real mistake, and makes it look like *THEY* think their legacy hangs in the balance. It doesn't, at least not in the sense of their SB wins being in jeopardy, etc. As far as the actual penalties go:

4-game suspension -- They'll gut their way through those games and post the best record they can, then try to hit the ground running after Brady returns. The AFC East is the opposite of a murderer's row.

Fine -- Pocket change for Kraft; who cares.

Loss of draft picks -- Stings, but the roster repercussions won't truly be felt until 2018, maybe 2019. At that point, Brady and Belichick might both be retired, and stinking for a couple years might be the best course of action for a rebuild anyway.

I agree with you here, creating a website makes them look paranoid... and if they look paranoid about anything then, in the minds of many, they are that much more guilty of.... crimes.

2. While I hope that their "gutting through" involves being 0-4 when Brady comes back, you are right in that the rest of the AFC East is rather.... soft (cupcake isn't quite the right term... but it's close)

3. Assuming Brady serves all 4 games of the suspension, I believe it was pointed out earlier ITT, that Kraft will in essence "make" money with his little pocket change fine.

4. I tend to agree with you,, although Brady has given interviews stating he wants to be QBing well into his 40s (and he's not far off that right now)... so it may be that there may be an aging Brady, no Bellichick and a "rebuilding" terrible franchise.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
So in a case where they can't prove anything the Patriots should be fined 1million dollars, lose 2 draft picks and their starting quarterback for 4 games.

In a case where 3 separate teams were found to be cheating with CONCLUSIVE evidence, 2 teams were given a warning and 1 team was fined something stupid like 25k. Please explain that

The other teams should have been punished more for cheating with the balls. Though, to be fair, their losing records are kind of their own punishment. That's probably why nobody really cared about Atlanta using fake crowd noise and still having a terrible season.

It could also be a situation where we have a timeline.... I'd bet that the NFL, in warning the first team caught with flat balls, the NFL sent that exact same warning to the whole league. The second team, if a bit later in time, the League resent the warning, this time reinforcing the idea that this applies to EVERYONE, not just the team caught. 3rd team the League is like, "OK guys, clearly you aren't getting the message, give me 25k... STOP DOING THIS!!!!" Then the Pats get caught, and by now they have to be, "for feths sake guys!! how bloody hard is it to keep a ball inflated right!?"



Also, the League doesn't have to operate under the "innocent until proven guilty" logic that actual law does.... Just because they cannot reasonably prove anything, clearly in someone's mind up there, the Patriots couldn't clearly disprove the charges, and are thus being punished.

The time line was this,

2012: Chargers apply Stickum to game balls during game for competitive advantage. $20,000 fine
2014(December): Panthers/Vikings heat balls during game. An act actually forbidden in the rules. Both teams warned...thats it
2015: (January): Patriots balls possibly under inflated (possibly because we still can't prove they were fully inflated or under inflated because the NFL sucks) $1,000,000 fine, Loss of 2 draft picks (1st round and 4th round on following years) and Patriots lose one of the best ever quarter backs for 4 games.

They could be fined 100 million, lose all players and cease to exists.


They still got a ring.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
So in a case where they can't prove anything the Patriots should be fined 1million dollars, lose 2 draft picks and their starting quarterback for 4 games.

In a case where 3 separate teams were found to be cheating with CONCLUSIVE evidence, 2 teams were given a warning and 1 team was fined something stupid like 25k. Please explain that

The other teams should have been punished more for cheating with the balls. Though, to be fair, their losing records are kind of their own punishment. That's probably why nobody really cared about Atlanta using fake crowd noise and still having a terrible season.

It could also be a situation where we have a timeline.... I'd bet that the NFL, in warning the first team caught with flat balls, the NFL sent that exact same warning to the whole league. The second team, if a bit later in time, the League resent the warning, this time reinforcing the idea that this applies to EVERYONE, not just the team caught. 3rd team the League is like, "OK guys, clearly you aren't getting the message, give me 25k... STOP DOING THIS!!!!" Then the Pats get caught, and by now they have to be, "for feths sake guys!! how bloody hard is it to keep a ball inflated right!?"



Also, the League doesn't have to operate under the "innocent until proven guilty" logic that actual law does.... Just because they cannot reasonably prove anything, clearly in someone's mind up there, the Patriots couldn't clearly disprove the charges, and are thus being punished.

The time line was this,

2012: Chargers apply Stickum to game balls during game for competitive advantage. $20,000 fine
2014(December): Panthers/Vikings heat balls during game. An act actually forbidden in the rules. Both teams warned...thats it
2015: (January): Patriots balls possibly under inflated (possibly because we still can't prove they were fully inflated or under inflated because the NFL sucks) $1,000,000 fine, Loss of 2 draft picks (1st round and 4th round on following years) and Patriots lose one of the best ever quarter backs for 4 games.

You need to understand these are repeat offenders.

1000 hours of community service would do nicely as a back up verdict

you need to realize that no they aren't. Spygate was proven to be a joke just like this. Bill's only violation was that he had the Camera on the field and not up in the press box. And the rules actually gave him a loop hole because they specify that you can't do that to gain in advantage IN THAT GAME. where as he only viewed the tapes after wards to use against that team the next game...something he is allowed to do by having a Camera in the press box. So it really didn't even matter.

And beyond that, THEIRS NO PROOF! lol, the patriots are being punished for something that the NFL thinks they did, not something they actually Did. Based on that reasoning, I think your a pedophile so IM going to have to arrest you now and confiscate your phone....as someone pointed out the NFL doesn't operate on the simple principle of Innocent until proven guilty, but you would think after a full on investigation where no proof was found they would at least have backed down and apologized.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
*Side note: That pedophile thing isn't a personal insult or attack I was just using that as an example of how that reasoning goes.

Chancetragedy wrote:

Crooked needle theory? No theory here, I'm basing my arguments on facts presented in the wells report not the spin attached to it.

Crooked needle theory: The notion that the inflation needles used to test the Patriot's balls were crooked, and therefore could not be relied upon.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

2012: Chargers apply Stickum to game balls during game for competitive advantage. $20,000 fine

Stickum, IIRC has been a banned "substance" in the NFL since the late 70s or early 80s. As such, it's no wonder that the NFL would come down and fine the Chargers for doing something that has been illegal for some considerable time.

And unlike letting air out, it's VERY easy to tell when stickum or pine tar or any similar substance is applied.

Ie, this picture, taken when it was still legal to use such stuff:




I definitely remember seeing a picture of Jack Tatum, a DB on the Raiders round the same time as the pictured player, only he looked a bit like a green sasquatch he had so much grass stuck to the stickum stuck to his arms

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Bill's only violation was that he had the Camera on the field and not up in the press box.

That's still cheating. Call the punishment overkill if you want, but there's no doubt about their guilt.

And beyond that, THEIRS NO PROOF!

There's also no proof that you exist and aren't just my sockpuppet account (because I love arguing with myself).

Based on that reasoning, I think your a pedophile so IM going to have to arrest you now and confiscate your phone....

Except you have no evidence at all for that claim. There is significant evidence for the Patriots cheating, even if that evidence falls a bit short of being indisputable.

but you would think after a full on investigation where no proof was found they would at least have backed down and apologized.

No, because in the real world the standard of proof is not "beyond any possible doubt" with a signed confession from Brady himself that he ordered the footballs deflated. The investigation did find strong evidence that Brady cheated, and the theory that Brady cheated is overwhelmingly more plausible than any of the alternatives.

Actually the real world standard is "Beyond a possible doubt" at least in Western Countries. If your boss thought you stole something but couldn't prove it he couldn't fire you without the risk of being sued for wrongful termination.

in this case the proof isn't strong enough to even be considered "overwhelming" in fact its far more plausible (especially if you have read the actual reports) that this entire thing is because of inept referees with inaccurate gauges.

And lastly, if by some small chance the patriots did cheat here and it was entirely Brady's idea....why the massive discipline smack down? As shown above in other posts, 3 other teams have committed more egregious crimes and have had hard evidence against them and yet the biggest fine was 20,000.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Actually the real world standard is "Beyond a possible doubt" at least in Western Countries.

In criminal trials it is. This is not a criminal trial, it is a sports league enforcing a penalty within its own rules. The standards of criminal trials don't apply, just like you can't demand proof "beyond any reasonable doubt" for a penalty flag.

As shown above in other posts, 3 other teams have committed more egregious crimes and have had hard evidence against them and yet the biggest fine was 20,000.

They should have been punished more, but perhaps the NFL's view was that having such a bad team is its own punishment.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Huh...okay - so essentially - the NFL can't prove it but we "clearly" know what is going on. That is an idiotic statement if if ever seen one.

No, you just don't understand the difference between absolute proof and proof beyond any reasonable doubt. The fact that nobody has a video of the balls being deflated or a signed confession from Brady is irrelevant because there's no other plausible explanation for the facts. We know that:

1) The balls were under-inflated.

2) A Patriots employee was caught on camera taking the balls into a bathroom after walking past other, more convenient, bathrooms.

3) No low-level employee is going to tamper with the balls used by the team's future-hall-of-fame quarterback without that quarterback's permission.

Any alternative theory for what was going on is about as plausible as the conspiracy theories about black helicopters and mind control in the chemtrails.

I understand that absolute proof and proof without a reasonable doubt are not met by this investigation. The very statement by Wells that Brady "more likely than not" is an admission of not ruling out a reasonable doubt.

Is it possible that some avid pats fans got a job ass ball boys for that patriots? Absolutely - in fact that is something you'd expect.

Is it possible that the balls boys overheard Brady's ball preference in a conversation and weren't actually ordered to deflate the balls, they just did it because they want their favorite team to go down in history as the greatest dynasty of all time? Uhh...Yeah that's definitely possible even dare I say...plausible?

Since you can't prove ether way - you have to go with what you know - which isn't very much. It's pure speculation to say the balls were under inflated granted the 2 gauges used to measure the balls are inconsistent with each other. Clearly they aren't functioning properly or at least one of them isn't - of which the refs can not recall which was used for which measurements. If this was a legal case - it would be thrown out instantly.

Also - why exactly aren't the colts losing a first round pick and having their star QB suspended for 4 games with a million dollar fine for a 25k punishable offense? There is just as much evidence that the colts were playing with under inflated balls too!!! Which even I, a man who thinks haters are out to get the patriots, can not believe is being ignored here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Actually the real world standard is "Beyond a possible doubt" at least in Western Countries.

In criminal trials it is. This is not a criminal trial, it is a sports league enforcing a penalty within its own rules. The standards of criminal trials don't apply, just like you can't demand proof "beyond any reasonable doubt" for a penalty flag.

As shown above in other posts, 3 other teams have committed more egregious crimes and have had hard evidence against them and yet the biggest fine was 20,000.

They should have been punished more, but perhaps the NFL's view was that having such a bad team is its own punishment.

Actually beyond a reasonable doubt is exactly the standard that is used in overturning plays in a challenge. Conclusive evidence is required to overturn a play. This is also the logical standard for basically every proof I have ever seen. I'm not sure why sports penalties should be removed from actual logical proofing. Especially when you consider how successful the patriots are and how many people whould go out of their way to make them look like cheaters. Take a look at any ESPN post related to the patriots. Youll have 20-30 trolls calling the patirots cheaters...usually...steelers fans/ seahawks fans/ and ravens fans...not so much the colts though - they are a respectable fan base and don't typically stoop that low.

 dogma wrote:

Chancetragedy wrote:

Crooked needle theory? No theory here, I'm basing my arguments on facts presented in the wells report not the spin attached to it.

Crooked needle theory: The notion that the inflation needles used to test the Patriot's balls were crooked, and therefore could not be relied upon.

Oh haha I haven't heard that one yet. I thought you were referencing something about the gauge with the crooked needle the refs used during the game, but it was like that from factory so I'm sure it was fine.