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"Lasers are awesome" - 7th ed Eldar codex development team.

 n0t_u wrote:
"Lasers are awesome" - 7th ed Eldar codex development team.

Quoted for truth!

Give marine Relentless and let us take 10 rockets...then we are on the same page...

No amount of lore can combat the space marine fluff. Space marines are > everything. So please tell me how guardians on jet bikes crushing marines that can't move and out of their range is forging the narrative. BTW...it's not.

for those that have not seen it yet. Look here. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/646960.page

Eldar Jetbikes have always given a 3+ save.

I don't disagree with your conclusions, but disagree with a piece of the argument:

While Wind riders exchange TL Shuriken Catapults for SL, in almost every other case, a Shuriken Cannon is exchanged, and its often +5pojnts. So its a HB +5pts on most platforms, costwise.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Eldar Jetbikes have always given a 3+ save.

Yes, but my argument is that they shouldn't because they are not priced that way. In my opinion it seems like they were left that way to sell models.

nedTCM wrote:
I think the problem there is with the Jet Bikes themselves and not really Scatterlasers. Being real Scatter and Multilasers are good weapons, but they are not particularly scary on their own. And 10 points is not a bad price for them. Their main reason for being taken before was laser lock or on Walkers, which again were not that big of a deal.

I disagree with this. Yes, the fact that they can be spammed on jetbikes makes them even more undercosted, but as it stands, they're still undercosted even if they weren't spammable. Heavy bolters are a 10 points upgrade. Unless you're consistently firing at targets with 4+ armor saves and no other saves available, the scatter laser is generally better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Skinnereal wrote:
The cost of the upgrade should depend on what it is upgrading from.
A SL is usually upgraded from TL shuriken catapults.
A HB would usually get upgraded from a bolter.

One reason to change costs to upgrade amongst a range of weapons is to get people to buy more of a model once they're glued the upgrades on.
If you have a Dev squad of 4x ML models, and MLs get changed to cost 10 points more, do you buy more devs to get the newest best weapons?
The same with jetbikes. Everyone with bikes already has Shuriken Cannon on them. SL now cost the same, so everyone has to buy more bikes.

So, 10 points for a similar-but-not-the-same weapon is not an easy X=Y comparison.

That's not a valid in game reason. You realize this, yes?

Traditio wrote:

nedTCM wrote:
I think the problem there is with the Jet Bikes themselves and not really Scatterlasers. Being real Scatter and Multilasers are good weapons, but they are not particularly scary on their own. And 10 points is not a bad price for them. Their main reason for being taken before was laser lock or on Walkers, which again were not that big of a deal.

I disagree with this. Yes, the fact that they can be spammed on jetbikes makes them even more undercosted, but as it stands, they're still undercosted even if they weren't spammable. Heavy bolters are a 10 points upgrade. Unless you're consistently firing at targets with 4+ armor saves and no other saves available, the scatter laser is generally better.

My comment goes with what I was saying a little higher up that the price of each weapon should be scaled to its platform. A SL is generally more useful, but that doesn't mean it should just always be more expensive. I think on if the platform was different it would be priced just right because its direct competition is the S-Cannon.

In most cases a HB should just be cheaper than it is right now. Or just flat out free.

Heavy bolters should be 5 points at most. For a tactical squad, you should get one for free if you take 10 dudes. They don't do anything that well.

Plasma Pistols should be 10. At 15, no one takes them. At 5, everyone would take them. 10 points just sounds about right.

Power weapons on IG models should be 10. On a S3 model, who fething cares? There is no reason for it to cost 15. I'd even be fine with 5 points.

Power fists on IG models should be 15. Again, wow. You're up to S6. Congrats. There is no reason for these to cost 25 points like they do on Space Marines.

Traditio wrote:

 Skinnereal wrote:
One reason to change costs to upgrade amongst a range of weapons is to get people to buy more of a model once they're glued the upgrades on.

That's not a valid in game reason. You realize this, yes?

I do, yes.
If the original question was roughly "How come SL and HB cost the same, yet aren't", I was referring to the cost. Make a model cheaper, and people will change to use them.
As a reason for the drop in costs, it's probably a reason the new codex made it an option, and a relatively cheap one. I didn't say it as an in-game reason, but a possible reason for the change.

I agree that HB should be a 5-point upgrade, since most models that use it aren't Relentless. It's a fairly big adjustment in the way the unit can use it.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Eldar Jetbikes have always given a 3+ save.

I beg to differ:

I couldn't find an image of the 2nd editoin data card, but it was a vehicle with a guardian rider with a 5+ save. So there's two editions of non 3+ save eldar jetbikes.

What did MEQs get a the same time?

During Rogue Trader? A Mark II (I think) Bullock jetbike or the standard bike with similar stats and a Space marine Rider.

SM stats from the time.

Move 4
WS 4
BS 4
S 4
T 3 (Ha!)
W 1
I 4
A 1
Ld 8
Int 8
Cl 8
Wp 8
Save 4+

Also, did you see the PV (that's Points Value) 120.... just for the bike. Vehicle were expensive in RT. A land raider was 750 points!