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Here's my idea of how to fix vehicles:
Remove the d6 roll on the damage table, but not the table itself.

Rolling equal to the av against vehicles no longer causes a glancing hit.

Rolling greater than Av against vehicles causes the vehicle to lose a hull point and add the difference from the penetration result- the av-2 to determine the results of the vehicle damage chart. Values above 8 on the damage chart always count as 8 for resolving damage results.

For example against a rhino with av11 armor you roll a 14 to penetrate with your melta gun. You initially cause 1 hp of damage and then determine the results on the vehicle damage chart. 14-9=5 +2(from ap1) 7 or a destroyed result.


Other changes: : :


Haywire change- roll of 1-3 nothing , roll of 4-6- lose 1 hull point, roll of 6- lose 1 hull point* edited

Grav- Rolls of 1-3 -nothing, rolls of 4-6 cause an immobilized result and make the vehicle snap fire shots.


Gauss-
Rolls of 6 to penetrate against AV13 or lower cause the loss of 1hp.

rolls of 6 to penetrate against av14+ cause an unaltered roll on the vehicle damage chart.

strength D weapon-
A D roll of 1- units affected by the D weapon gain furious charge and fearless. ( after surviving a direct hit from a nuclear esque weapon they suddenly rush into battle regardless of the danger.)

a D hit of 2-5 counts as D3 s10ap1, ignores cover, instant death, armorbane hits against the affected model's unit.

A D hit of 6 counts as 3+ D3 S10 ap1, ignores cover, instant death,armorbane hits against the affected model's unit



Step by step process of the example for damaging vehicles.
You have a S8 ap1 weapon. You roll a 6 to penetrate (assuming not in melta range) 8+6=14

14 is your penetration roll.

The AV of a rhino is 11. AV-2 is the value of the armor breakdown. 11-2 =9.

9 is your armor breakdown.

In order to figure out what additional damage is caused to the vehicle you subtract the armor breakdown from the armor penetration roll. 14-9= 5
+5 is your initial damage bonus on the vehicle damage chart.

Now you add +2 because the weapon is ap1. 5+2=7

Your total damage modifier=7 on the vehicle damage chart.

What do you think?

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Here's my idea of how to fix vehicles:
Remove the d6 roll on the damage table, but not the table itself.
Rolling equal to the av against vehicles no longer causes a glancing hit.
Rolling greater than Av against vehicles causes the vehicle to lose a hull point and add the difference from the penetration result- the av-2 to determine the results of the vehicle damage chart.
For example against a rhino with av11 armor you roll a 14 to penetrate with your melta gun. You initially cause 1 hp of damage and then determine the results on the vehicle damage chart. 14-9=5 +2(from ap1) 7 or a destroyed result.


What do you think?

Just to be clear, damage is still resolved at S+d6, yes?

but where did you get "14-9?"

The damage chart would need re worked. I don't like the idea of a lone melta gunner just totally wrecking my rhino on the spot.

Yes s+d6= penetration roll. Any penetration roll at least +1 above AV causes a loss of one HP.

You take your penetration roll( which must be at least 1 higher than av) and subtract the value of the armor breakdown (which is the AV-2) and add that to value to the vehicle damage chart.

Finally add any bonuses to the chart for ap.


With these rules high strength low ap have a good chance of killing alot of vehicles outright( which is their job) and low strength high ap become useless for AT.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In the example:

You have a S8 ap1 weapon. You roll a 6 to penetrate (assuming not in melta range) 8+6=14

14 is your penetration roll.

The AV of a rhino is 11. AV-2 is the value of the armor breakdown. 11-2 =9.

9 is your armor breakdown.

In order to figure out what additional damage is caused to the vehicle you subtract the armor breakdown from the armor penetration roll. 14-9= 5
+5 is your initial damage bonus on the vehicle damage chart.

Now you add +2 because the weapon is ap1. 5+2=7

Your total damage modifier=7 on the vehicle damage chart.

I don't think this will work, a Fire Dragon can roll a 21, dealing 7Hp to a Super Heavy, potentially ones hitting it.

If you want to fix Hp and Glances, especially mid strength weapon stripping Ho Away, simply add an Armor Save to Vehicles. Give Vioers and land speeders a 5+, Give Rhinos etc a 4+. Give Dreads a 3+, and give Land a Raiders a 2+. Weapons AP still applies, but it gives vehicles resistance to mid and high strength low AP weapons, while keeping dedicated AT weapons very fertile and should give vehicles better survivabikity overal. HP Stripping is no longer as easy, especially for the likes of Scatter Lasers and Missile Pods, Guass, etc.

Why does it deal 7hps?

I think I should clarify: Values above 8 on the vehicle damage chart count as 8's regardless of how far it goes above the value.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Why does it deal 7hps?

I think I should clarify: Values above 8 on the vehicle damage chart count as 8's regardless of how far it goes above the value.

I meant a 7 on the chart which is Destroyed.

It feels clunky, and always having to calculate the difference could be a pain, then consulting the chart.

Knights are dealt d3 hullpoints instead of being instant killed from the invincible behemoth rule they already have.

The odds go up slightly in the melta gun of rolling said destroyed result with my rules, but this is ok for 2 reasons:
1. Its an anti-tank weapon: it better be able to harm the model its made to kill.
2. It is already capable of getting the same results rather easily with the current rules.

Plus we're not accounting ion shield saves, which side of the armor they are shooting, whether they are within melta range etc.

The difference is now you can reliably use anti tank weapons and expect a result, but non dedicated AT stops working.

Congratulations, now you've made the MC vs. vehicle balance issues even worse. A high-strength weapon, especially with AP 1, is effectively an auto-kill against low-AV vehicles, but only does a single wound to an MC. And even high-AV vehicles still lose a "wound", with the chance of adding more damage.

What about d weapons, haywire and grav. They don't have str.

 Peregrine wrote:
Congratulations, now you've made the MC vs. vehicle balance issues even worse. A high-strength weapon, especially with AP 1, is effectively an auto-kill against low-AV vehicles, but only does a single wound to an MC. And even high-AV vehicles still lose a "wound", with the chance of adding more damage.

I think you misunderstand. You would have to roll 3 higher than the av with an ap1 to destroy the vehicle, 4 higher with an ap2 and 5 higher with ap3 or worse.

MC are still vulnerable to The normal s6 spam and the like we usually see nowadays, but AV vehicles are more or less immune. For instance you could only deal 1 hp against a rhino, av11, with s6 on a roll of 6,( which of course cannot net a destroyed result against it because the strength isn't high enough).

#kooaei
Right now S D breaks all the rules of the regular AV system, and personally I hate how it works. I will rework into something less insane than it is now.

Haywire change- roll of 1- nothing , roll of 2-5- lose 1 hull point, roll of 6- lose 1 hull point and suffer immobilized result.

Grav- remains the same.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Proposed D weapon changes-
A D roll of 1- units affected by the D weapon gain furious charge and fearless. ( after surviving a direct hit from a nuclear esque weapon they suddenly rush into battle regardless of the danger.)

a D hit of 2-5 counts as D3 s10ap1, ignores cover, instant death, armorbane hits against the affected model's unit.

A D hit of 6 counts as 3+ D3 S10 ap1, ignores cover, instant death,armorbane hits against the affected model's unit.

The issue I'm having with this is that anything S8 that doesn't have melta/armourbane can no longer do anything to AV 14. Missile launchers that can't hurt a vehicle anymore?

I'm wondering what happens to automatically glance effects like rolling 2 to 5 with a haywire weapon.

kingbobbito wrote:The issue I'm having with this is that anything S8 that doesn't have melta/armourbane can no longer do anything to AV 14. Missile launchers that can't hurt a vehicle anymore?

Well considering av14 is supposed to be the toughest of the tough, it DESERVES dedicated anti-tank specific weapons to be the only effective weapon against it.
Also the missile works against anything av13 or less fine.

Jefffar wrote:I'm wondering what happens to automatically glance effects like rolling 2 to 5 with a haywire weapon.

If you look a few posts back I showed what haywire would change to. 1- nothing, 2-5 lose 1 hp, 6- lose 1 hp and immobilized result.

Ehhh - it's not a bad idea but as said previously in the thread - this does not attack the core of the problem.

Vehicles are currently to easy to kill not too hard.

I think the best way to handle this is to change what glances actually do. A glance should not equal a hull point. A glance should equal crew shaken and thats that.

Pen chart could remain the same.

Weapons like haywire should probably addopt something like the gravaton rule for auto immobilization on a 6 and just count as str 8 vs vehicals only. Point being that the vehicle rules should not be molded around current weapons to keep weapons viable. Some AT weapons should be changed also to make the adjustments.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Ehhh - it's not a bad idea but as said previously in the thread - this does not attack the core of the problem.

Vehicles are currently to easy to kill not too hard.

I think the best way to handle this is to change what glances actually do. A glance should not equal a hull point. A glance should equal crew shaken and thats that.

Pen chart could remain the same.

Weapons like haywire should probably addopt something like the gravaton rule for auto immobilization on a 6 and just count as str 8 vs vehicals only. Point being that the vehicle rules should not be molded around current weapons to keep weapons viable. Some AT weapons should be changed also to make the adjustments.

My proposed rule makes slightly easier for high strength low AP weapons to kill av targets, but it also majorly reduces mid strength high aps effectiveness against Av which is the current standby for nearly all targets in the game.

As I said before, the simplest fix is give Vehicles an armor save, how much more effective is a Dreadnought with a 3+AS vs Spammed Strength 6 or Spammed Strength 7? 300% But, just as vulnerable to Low AP weaponry as normal makind dedicated AT much more appealing. A Rhino becomes 200% as durable against Scatter Lasers with a 4+AS. And vehicles don't require cover as much, and heavy cover vehicles like Skimmers recieve less of a benefit which helps balance vehicles out more.

It also has the benefit of being similar to other models, cover saves, and doesn't introduce a new mechanic that requires subraction and consulting an additional table.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

kingbobbito wrote:The issue I'm having with this is that anything S8 that doesn't have melta/armourbane can no longer do anything to AV 14. Missile launchers that can't hurt a vehicle anymore?

Well considering av14 is supposed to be the toughest of the tough, it DESERVES dedicated anti-tank specific weapons to be the only effective weapon against it.
Also the missile works against anything av13 or less fine.

Since when is a krak missile not a dedicated anti-tank weapon? Because frag missiles are junk unless you're fighting poorly spaced orks.

Zagman wrote:As I said before, the simplest fix is give Vehicles an armor save, how much more effective is a Dreadnought with a 3+AS vs Spammed Strength 6 or Spammed Strength 7? 300% But, just as vulnerable to Low AP weaponry as normal makind dedicated AT much more appealing. A Rhino becomes 200% as durable against Scatter Lasers with a 4+AS. And vehicles don't require cover as much, and heavy cover vehicles like Skimmers recieve less of a benefit which helps balance vehicles out more.

It also has the benefit of being similar to other models, cover saves, and doesn't introduce a new mechanic that requires subraction and consulting an additional table.

My solution is a sweeping change to all vehicles and affects them all equally. For your change to work you have to go through and determine what would be a balanced and fair save for every vehicle in the game.

kingbobbito wrote:

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

kingbobbito wrote:The issue I'm having with this is that anything S8 that doesn't have melta/armourbane can no longer do anything to AV 14. Missile launchers that can't hurt a vehicle anymore?

Well considering av14 is supposed to be the toughest of the tough, it DESERVES dedicated anti-tank specific weapons to be the only effective weapon against it.
Also the missile works against anything av13 or less fine.

Since when is a krak missile not a dedicated anti-tank weapon? Because frag missiles are junk unless you're fighting poorly spaced orks.

The krak missile was already terrible AT before. Like I said it loses the ability to glance av14( a 1 in 6 chance I might add) but it can still harm any vehicle av13 or less. Whereas s6 can only damage av11 on a 6 now. Notice how I also nerfed alot of other "op" AT sources such as grav and gauss to encourage taking melta, armorbane, and high strength weapons instead?

What if, not sure in if in conjunction with or as a replacement to, you, when consulting the table:

-Roll D6
-Subtract the AP value
-Values under a certain number (0?) are downgraded to a Glance
-Consult the table (probably the 6E table)
?

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Well considering av14 is supposed to be the toughest of the tough, it DESERVES dedicated anti-tank specific weapons to be the only effective weapon against it.
Also the missile works against anything av13 or less fine.

Don't forget that forgeworld has a rule for that. Armored Ceramite. and some go even further than that.

Bharring wrote:
What if, not sure in if in conjunction with or as a replacement to, you, when consulting the table:

-Roll D6
-Subtract the AP value
-Values under a certain number (0?) are downgraded to a Glance
-Consult the table (probably the 6E table)
?

Or maybe I could just change it so ap4 or worse do not use the damage table at all and just cause 1hp? Your suggestion would need a new table I think. 6ed table won't work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Roknar wrote:

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Well considering av14 is supposed to be the toughest of the tough, it DESERVES dedicated anti-tank specific weapons to be the only effective weapon against it.
Also the missile works against anything av13 or less fine.

Don't forget that forgeworld has a rule for that. Armored Ceramite. and some go even further than that.

Armored ceramite is a special rule that essentially nullifies melta yes, but outside of FW I'm pretty sure only the stormtalon and stormraven have the rule
Av 14 with ceramite is still affected by lance blasts and s10 weapons.

I 'd like to see somethinh like this:

When you do a glance, roll 1d6. If you score higher than your APvalue, strip 1 hp, otherwise no effect.

When you do a pen roll 1d6. If higher than AP roll on the damage chart as normal and -1hp, otherwise vehicle stunned and no hp.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

kingbobbito wrote:The issue I'm having with this is that anything S8 that doesn't have melta/armourbane can no longer do anything to AV 14. Missile launchers that can't hurt a vehicle anymore?

Well considering av14 is supposed to be the toughest of the tough, it DESERVES dedicated anti-tank specific weapons to be the only effective weapon against it.
Also the missile works against anything av13 or less fine.

Jefffar wrote:I'm wondering what happens to automatically glance effects like rolling 2 to 5 with a haywire weapon.

If you look a few posts back I showed what haywire would change to. 1- nothing, 2-5 lose 1 hp, 6- lose 1 hp and immobilized result.

Im a little interested in why you nerfed every other race's auto glance stuff but you kept haywire still stripping HP on a 2+ I mean granted you did nerf the roll of a 6 to be just an immobilized result.....which is a roll of a 6 on the current dmg table...so technically its a buff. You may want to tone down your bias a little bit.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

kingbobbito wrote:The issue I'm having with this is that anything S8 that doesn't have melta/armourbane can no longer do anything to AV 14. Missile launchers that can't hurt a vehicle anymore?

Well considering av14 is supposed to be the toughest of the tough, it DESERVES dedicated anti-tank specific weapons to be the only effective weapon against it.
Also the missile works against anything av13 or less fine.

Jefffar wrote:I'm wondering what happens to automatically glance effects like rolling 2 to 5 with a haywire weapon.

If you look a few posts back I showed what haywire would change to. 1- nothing, 2-5 lose 1 hp, 6- lose 1 hp and immobilized result.

Im a little interested in why you nerfed every other race's auto glance stuff but you kept haywire still stripping HP on a 2+ I mean granted you did nerf the roll of a 6 to be just an immobilized result.....which is a roll of a 6 on the current dmg table...so technically its a buff. You may want to tone down your bias a little bit.

I changed gauss back to normal against av13 or less, but against AV14 it is what I changed it originally.

I don't use haywire myself, but perhaps making haywire strip 1hp on a roll of 4-6 would be better?