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Do you think the Eldars ranged D was just a once off?

My logic for this is as follows:
Crons were in the same development cycle as the new Eldar and did not get any
Neither did admech and Skitarri
No indication of the new SM codex getting it
An attempt by GW to "fluff" up the Eldar units that used to have distort as a special rule / fluff up the fact that eldar are extremely technologically advanced (although this is countered by why Crons didnt get any)
A simple experiement by GW to see how it would go down tabletop-wise (with an eye to either continuing the trend or not)

I'd prefer to stay away from the arguments that GWs rules team is useless and that its a simple model sales exercise. Whilst both are valid points they dont get to the overall core of why GW decided to range D Eldar and no one else and the fact that it does break the core game outside of Apocalypse to a greater or lesser degree.

Im sort of siding with point #4, that it was a fluff attempt to bring back distort as a rule on certain Eldar weapons and instead of making a new mechanic for distrot they got lazy and slapped D on it instead.

Assuming then its a trend that continues, is it possible GW are going to finish this current cycle of codices, have ranged D everywhere and then reset things for 8th ed? I know its said over and over GWs rules are poor but I cant believe as a team they have agreed to bring in a game-wide mechanic that effectively rolls a to hit dice and removes a unit.

Or can I?

As dumb as it is to give Wraith the D, it was obviously what they were thinking at least in the previous book, if not before.

Hopefully they don't give it to more things (I wouldn't bet against it), but based on previously-written rules, nothing screams 'D weapon' quite like Distort weapons.

It's very likely they'll tone it down more with 8th edition (I'm sure most people would like that), but the sad thing is, it was probably a fluff decision. They reason why I say "sadly" is because Orks lost fluffy stuff, Dark Eldar don't fit their fluff, and the other 7th Ed. codexes didn't get nearly as much love (except crons). It's the fact that sure, fluff wise Distort should be strength D, and then they also proceeded to buff every other unit to make them more "fluffy" which brings them out of balance with every other codex. No other codex has such strong "fluffy" units, so this whole codex was a slap in the face to most people.

Even if it was true this was a fluff decision, GW better have a damn good plan in store, otherwise, they are, in fact, as incompetent as we've assumed. Only time will tell. Until now, we have to bite the pillow.

Well, Daemonkin got some D as well so yea. May not have been the same cycle but still. Granted it's not nearly to the same extent, but they got it.

Roknar wrote:
Well, Daemonkin got some D as well so yea. May not have been the same cycle but still. Granted it's not nearly to the same extent, but they got it.

It's also clearly inferior. ~250 for Strength D in CC, at Init 1. As opposed to 295 for tougher, 1 more wound, stomps, and Strength D at range, or in CC at Init 5. Yes, very fair indeed.

The only pattern with GW is that there is no pattern.

What happens is their games/rules development team is extreme in their approach to balance. By this I mean they write a bunch of rules down and tack them to the wall. They then proceed to throw a D6 to see how many darts they get to throw at this random wall to generate new rules for units.

GW aren't concerned greatly with game balance. They looked at the fluff of the weapon.....which it specifically states is so heinous that only the dead can harness it and thought...hmmm, strength D pretty much encompasses the destructiveness of this weapon. That works.

bullyboy wrote:
GW aren't concerned greatly with game balance. They looked at the fluff of the weapon.....which it specifically states is so heinous that only the dead can harness it and thought...hmmm, strength D pretty much encompasses the destructiveness of this weapon. That works.

Except now there is a hand held weapon that does essentially does the same thing as a massive single shot weapon from a Shadowsword or Turbolaser destructor. Having regular wraithguard with that basically trivalizes those weapons. There were plenty of ways to make it so they met fluff while not being moronic (lnstant death, ignore invul saves).

However, the worst part is that they did not get any sort of balance at all. They were just given insane buffs that are not at all reflected in their points costs.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Roknar wrote:
Well, Daemonkin got some D as well so yea. May not have been the same cycle but still. Granted it's not nearly to the same extent, but they got it.

It's also clearly inferior. ~250 for Strength D in CC, at Init 1. As opposed to 295 for tougher, 1 more wound, stomps, and Strength D at range, or in CC at Init 5. Yes, very fair indeed.

Never said anything about it being fair lol, only that there is at least one other codex out there with D weapons in the book. The D-Thirster and the Lord of skulls. Not sure if the new Knights have the D as well, though if they do, I would expect to see more D in the game and eldar not being a one off. Balanced or otherwise.

Greater Daemons and Superheavy vehicles make sense running around with D-weapons

an army full of dead guys carrying them does not make any sense at all

this image basically sums up the codex like...

Thing is, there was absolutely nothing wrong with the old Distort rules. They were effectively powerful and fluffy, so upgrading them to D just basically simplified them by using an existing rule.

Apparently, GW doesn't understand their own rules enough to see that the upgrade from Distort to Destroyer was significant, as they left the points cost the same as the previous edition for all but the WK (who received a number of enhancements), which is probably what irritated me the most. I don't care that Eldar have ranged D, but make them actually have to pay a significant price for it.

The biggest offender is the D-Cannon artillery, 50 points for a T7 W2 3+ unit that can drop S-D barrage blasts and can be bought in groups of 3. So now we have a 150 point unit that can effectively destroy at range just about anything short of a full-blown Titan in a single round of shooting (and even those Titans need to be careful).

If they wanted to be more about "forging the narrative" then all gauss weaponry should be strength D.

 krodarklorr wrote:
It's very likely they'll tone it down more with 8th edition (I'm sure most people would like that)

We were thinking that for 7TH edition, and look where it got us.

It's Eldar, they tend to get something major buffed up afterwords even if they take a hit somewhere.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
It's very likely they'll tone it down more with 8th edition (I'm sure most people would like that)

We were thinking that for 7TH edition, and look where it got us.

It's Eldar, they tend to get something major buffed up afterwords even if they take a hit somewhere.

What? No, nooooo, I'm sure GW will get around to it sometime. It's all part of their Great Master Plan. We just have to keep giving them money so they can get around to it.

While Eldar have the advanced technology fluff wise and crons didn't get D is because Eldar tech is based mostly off the Old Ones tech. They were allies in the War in Heaven. The technology that the Necrons have that makes them so strong isn't their weapons but the fact that you could never truly destroy a Necron. This is reflected in game via RP which can be taken against even D weapon hits. Necrons never had the guns. They have the durability.

 Xerics wrote:
While Eldar have the advanced technology fluff wise and crons didn't get D is because Eldar tech is based mostly off the Old Ones tech. They were allies in the War in Heaven. The technology that the Necrons have that makes them so strong isn't their weapons but the fact that you could never truly destroy a Necron. This is reflected in game via RP which can be taken against even D weapon hits. Necrons never had the guns. They have the durability.

No

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 Xerics wrote:
While Eldar have the advanced technology fluff wise and crons didn't get D is because Eldar tech is based mostly off the Old Ones tech. They were allies in the War in Heaven. The technology that the Necrons have that makes them so strong isn't their weapons but the fact that you could never truly destroy a Necron. This is reflected in game via RP which can be taken against even D weapon hits. Necrons never had the guns. They have the durability.

No

Nevermind I guess that is only against ID attacks which still makes it better than FNP.

Describing the Eldar and Old Ones as 'Allies' is a bit disingenuous too.

Eldar are more like the Old Ones' Space Marines.

There are two types of eldar player, the ones who are upset with the new rules because their units are too good and the ones who love it because their units are too good.
The ones who are upset will buy different things to field, the ones who love it will buy more wraith.

I think there are users on this forum with less than 5 posts who could have written a fairer Eldar codex, try playing Eldar vs. Orks or Imperial guard and you'll find yourself asking "did they play test these rules at all?" the answer is no, they didn't, because there wasn't time to do so before rushing the codex out the door to get the sales figures on the yearly profit/loss report.
If GW cared about the game and balance, they would put up some FAQ's and Errata for their books, as it is the last one was about 4 months ago and fixed nothing of note.
The fact there is an entire sub-forum on this site for discussing how the rules actually work for this game, and that seasoned players often find themselves arguing over single words, punctuation and often agree there is no clear answer is proof enough that these is a serious problem with the way GW run their flagship product.
It's quite sad really, but then again if anyone played 2nd or 3rd edition they would remember the days of it being like the wild west in terms of balance and rules. Just suck it up and if it really bothers you then ask the guy you're playing against to not make it a two hour chore of putting your models on the table then picking them back up again.

"In addition, the Necrons understood that the mantle of galactic dominion was soon to pass to the Eldar, one of the psychically-potent races that had fought alongside the Old Ones throughout the War in Heaven and had thus come to hate the Necrons and all their works with the burning passion that is the defining characteristic of that species. The Eldar had survived where the Old Ones had not, and the Necrons, weakened by their expenditure of lives and resources in overthrowing the rule of the C'tan, could not stand against them."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CaptainSuperglue wrote:
There are two types of eldar player, the ones who are upset with the new rules because their units are too good and the ones who love it because their units are too good.
The ones who are upset will buy different things to field, the ones who love it will buy more wraith.

I think there are users on this forum with less than 5 posts who could have written a fairer Eldar codex, try playing Eldar vs. Orks or Imperial guard and you'll find yourself asking "did they play test these rules at all?" the answer is no, they didn't, because there wasn't time to do so before rushing the codex out the door to get the sales figures on the yearly profit/loss report.
If GW cared about the game and balance, they would put up some FAQ's and Errata for their books, as it is the last one was about 4 months ago and fixed nothing of note.
The fact there is an entire sub-forum on this site for discussing how the rules actually work for this game, and that seasoned players often find themselves arguing over single words, punctuation and often agree there is no clear answer is proof enough that these is a serious problem with the way GW run their flagship product.
It's quite sad really, but then again if anyone played 2nd or 3rd edition they would remember the days of it being like the wild west in terms of balance and rules. Just suck it up and if it really bothers you then ask the guy you're playing against to not make it a two hour chore of putting your models on the table then picking them back up again.

What about those Eldar players who don't have to buy anything and can already run anything from the codex?

 Xerics wrote:

What about those Eldar players who don't have to buy anything and can already run anything from the codex?

They should be banging on the doors in Nottingham and demanding an answer to why they are becoming pariahs within their favourite hobby!

Edit: Just saw your sig, if I had an army that large of Eldar I would be very upset. Honestly how do you feel about the Eldar book? Happy to be stronger and fluffy, or upset that your army is now so strong it spoils the fun of the game.

 Xerics wrote:

What about those Eldar players who don't have to buy anything and can already run anything from the codex?

Says the guy who runs multiple Wraithknights quite often?

At this point, it doesn't come down to the players, it comes down to how obvious it is to exploit this codex, with allies, CAD shenanigans, ext. It deviates from the standard set forth by other 7th Ed. books, and it obviously means GW still favors their Space Elves. And also trying to believe that every player out there is nice enough to limit themselves with their own codex is a waste of time. It won't happen, and a game shouldn't have a faction where that is the case (having to limit yourself, that is).

CaptainSuperglue wrote:

 Xerics wrote:

What about those Eldar players who don't have to buy anything and can already run anything from the codex?

They should be banging on the doors in Nottingham and demanding an answer to why they are becoming pariahs within their favourite hobby!

Can't afford to fly overseas just to complain...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Xerics wrote:

What about those Eldar players who don't have to buy anything and can already run anything from the codex?

Says the guy who runs multiple Wraithknights quite often?

At this point, it doesn't come down to the players, it comes down to how obvious it is to exploit this codex, with allies, CAD shenanigans, ext. It deviates from the standard set forth by other 7th Ed. books, and it obviously means GW still favors their Space Elves. And also trying to believe that every player out there is nice enough to limit themselves with their own codex is a waste of time. It won't happen, and a game shouldn't have a faction where that is the case (having to limit yourself, that is).

Yes I ran 4 wraithknights that I have had prior to the 7th core rulebook even dropping in a tournament that had 2 armies that had 5 Imperial Knights. I don't really feel bad.

And also trying to believe that every player out there is nice enough to limit themselves with their own codex is a waste of time. It won't happen, and a game shouldn't have a faction where that is the case (having to limit yourself, that is).

I agree, although there really are two warhammer 40,000's right now, games which have Eldar or Necrons in them, and those that don't. Both books are over powered when compared to the other armies.

If I'd made a post in October last year saying I thought Ork zap cannons should get S.D I'd be laughed out the thread, but now hitting on a 4+ with S.D for 60 points would actually be a very poor unit, compared to what Eldar and Necrons can field. Bad times for the hobby, lets wait and see how the new Codex: Space Marines drops before we say the sky is falling though... maybe there will be a S.D Land Raider...

CaptainSuperglue wrote:

And also trying to believe that every player out there is nice enough to limit themselves with their own codex is a waste of time. It won't happen, and a game shouldn't have a faction where that is the case (having to limit yourself, that is).

I agree, although there really are two warhammer 40,000's right now, games which have Eldar or Necrons in them, and those that don't. Both books are over powered when compared to the other armies.

If I'd made a post in October last year saying I thought Ork zap cannons should get S.D I'd be laughed out the thread, but now hitting on a 5+ with S.D for 60 points would actually be a very poor unit, compared to what Eldar and Necrons can field. Bad times for the hobby, lets wait and see how the new Codex: Space Marines drops before we say the sky is falling though... maybe there will be a S.D Land Raider...

Necrons may be tough, but at least internally their book is very balanced. And even then, what do they have that's stupid? They don't have Strength D on infantry. In fact they have very few powerful guns in general. They fixed everything people complained about, and made poor units good.

Eldar is a whole different story. Obj Sec Jetbikes that magically (sorry, "psychically") have a 3+ armor save out of nowhere, are very mobile, and have decent guns? Alright, lets keep them Obj Sec, and say "F you" to every other trop choice not only in their codex, but in every other codex, and lets give them all Heavy Weapons, because that's necessary. And then units that were already good, make them better, despite not showing equal treatment to previous 7th Ed. codexes. Also, lets make spamming GCs a thing. The Strength D coming out their pores is just icing on the "F you" cake. Necrons are nowhere near as dumb as that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xerics wrote:


Yes I ran 4 wraithknights that I have had prior to the 7th core rulebook even dropping in a tournament that had 2 armies that had 5 Imperial Knights. I don't really feel bad.

Yes, but people are doing that in casual games. There-in lies a big problem.

 krodarklorr wrote:

CaptainSuperglue wrote:

And also trying to believe that every player out there is nice enough to limit themselves with their own codex is a waste of time. It won't happen, and a game shouldn't have a faction where that is the case (having to limit yourself, that is).

I agree, although there really are two warhammer 40,000's right now, games which have Eldar or Necrons in them, and those that don't. Both books are over powered when compared to the other armies.

If I'd made a post in October last year saying I thought Ork zap cannons should get S.D I'd be laughed out the thread, but now hitting on a 5+ with S.D for 60 points would actually be a very poor unit, compared to what Eldar and Necrons can field. Bad times for the hobby, lets wait and see how the new Codex: Space Marines drops before we say the sky is falling though... maybe there will be a S.D Land Raider...

Necrons may be tough, but at least internally their book is very balanced. And even then, what do they have that's stupid? They don't have Strength D on infantry. In fact they have very few powerful guns in general. They fixed everything people complained about, and made poor units good.

Eldar is a whole different story. Obj Sec Jetbikes that magically (sorry, "psychically") have a 3+ armor save out of nowhere, are very mobile, and have decent guns? Alright, lets keep them Obj Sec, and say "F you" to every other trop choice not only in their codex, but in every other codex, and lets give them all Heavy Weapons, because that's necessary. And then units that were already good, make them better, despite not showing equal treatment to previous 7th Ed. codexes. Also, lets make spamming GCs a thing. The Strength D coming out their pores is just icing on the "F you" cake. Necrons are nowhere near as dumb as that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xerics wrote:


Yes I ran 4 wraithknights that I have had prior to the 7th core rulebook even dropping in a tournament that had 2 armies that had 5 Imperial Knights. I don't really feel bad.

Yes, but people are doing that in casual games. There-in lies a big problem.

Well wraithbone is one of the hardest substances in use in the setting only outmatched by Necron armor. Eldar make everything thye have out of wraithbone... So having the 3+ on bikes makes a little bit of sense. You have more of a chance of hitting the bike than the guy on the bike so really you arent using the little guys armor but the durability of the bike instead. Wraithlords, wraithknights, and wraithguard are all made of wraithbone and have that same 3+ armor save. Spamming gargantuan creatures probably wasn't a good thing on their part but Ill take it to tournaments anytime I suspect multiple Imperial Knight Titans.

Necrons are nowhere near as dumb as that.

I disagree, and counter your points with the fact Necrons get a second (almost invunerable -ish) 5/4+ saving throw army wide, this is entirely unfair when compared to other armies such as orks, marines or imperial guard. Please do not take that personally because I also have a large army of Necrons, I just feel like a broad mind is needed when looking at the situation and as I said earlier it's very easy to be happy when it's your favourite army which has been buffed. Unfortunatly that's the wrong attitude to take to better the game and the hobby, but does help GW's sales figures. The point I was making was that compared to any other army in the game, both Eldar and Necrons are in a league of their own, and it's not fun.

They basically get armywide FNP +1 across the board. Even the Canoptek Harvest gives their wraiths RP if the spyder is nearby.

It seems to me that the necron and elder codex writers are having a pissing contest but only the other codexs are getting covered in urine.

Necrons got insanely good durability that can only be ignored by Str D? Give Eldar a ton of Str D.