Zagman's Balance Errata: Codex: Eldar Craftwords and Codex: Dark Eldar

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**Cytharai**

Gotta make it to the stomp step though... I've had Harridans get splatted in one round of combat vs a daemon prince

**Zagman**

Bharring wrote:
I really think the problem with it last edition was that GW basically made it a SH without giving it SH rules.

Melta VS IK, assuming Melts range (2d6):
Glance: (11%)(1/2) = 0.055
Pen, no boom: (72%)(1/2)(2/3) = 0.24
Pen, plus boom: (72%)(1/2)(1/3)(d3+1) = 0.36
Total: EV of about 2/3 HP per hit.

WK:
Wound: (1/2)(2/3 FnP) = 0.33 Wounds.

So on one of the best anti-vehicle weapons, deployed perfectly, the WK takes twice the shots to kill. With a highly specialized anti-tank weapon.

Outside Malta range?
IK:
Glance: (1/6)(1/2) = 1/12
Pen, no boom: (1/6)(1/2)(2/3) = 1/18
Pen, plus boom: (1/6)(1/2)(1/3)(d3+1) = 1/12
EV of 8/36 HP/shot.

WK is still at 1/3 HP/shot.

Melta outside half range is *more* deadly to a WK by a 3:2 ratio.

And the numbers get much, much worse for AP2/1 weapons. And even more so for lower S.

Sure, Haywire and in-Melta-range Melts melt IKs faster. Anti vehicle weapons will do that.

But Poison and Fleshbane and Rending kill WKs far faster than IKs.

And everything in between - the weapons not specifically to kill heavy vehicles - the WK dies a lot faster.

(Side note - D weapons and Lance weapons also kill the WK much faster than the IK.)

I'm not saying the WK shouldn't cost more. I'm saying that its not as durable as the IK.

All of your data assumes an Ion Shield and none of it assumes a cover save for the WK. Nor does it hold true for other common weapon types. See the data below...

Spoiler:

I disagree about the Imperial Knight being more resilient against a broad range of firepower.

**Cytharai**

But look at a group of Grey Knights, or Force weapon wielders, or other instant death weapons in close combat with an IK vs WK...

**Zagman**

Cytharai wrote:
But look at a group of Grey Knights, or Force weapon wielders, or other instant death weapons in close combat with an IK vs WK...

That is a specific hard counter and not indicative of the game in general. I could just as easily say a unit with T3/S3 with Haywire in CC with a IK vs a WK.... Specific and not widely available hard counters are of little use when balancing a unit.

**Cytharai**

Kaldor Draigo is pretty common these days. Not trying to be argumentative, it's just that if you use anti-armor weapons vs an IK, might as well use multi wound weapons vs GMC's.

And we're also assuming there's not an AdLance formation on the table... too many variables

**LighthouseM**

You can add Sniper to the S5/Poison grouping vs. WKs.

imo, In a setting where WKs can get toe in cover, they come out on top. If not, IKs and WKs are probably about even to me as a Tau player.

I have to specialize a significant portion of my army to deal with IKs. With WKs I have far more options for doing damage, but it'll take more shots.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grav weapons (which are pretty ubiquitous, especially with the new SM codex coming out) completely wreck Wraith Knights.

**Bharring**

For Melts weapons in Melta range, no cover seems a given.

What I'm seeing is:
S5-8 AP3 or better, advantage IK
S9+ AP2 or better, advantage WK
Low-S rending, advantave IK
Anti-vehicle weapons, advantage WK
Anti-MC weapons, advantage IK

With AP4, S7+ advantage WK, S6- advantage IK

**Zagman**

Cytharai wrote:Kaldor Draigo is pretty common these days. Not trying to be argumentative, it's just that if you use anti-armor weapons vs an IK, might as well use multi wound weapons vs GMC's.

And we're also assuming there's not an AdLance formation on the table... too many variables

LighthouseM wrote:You can add Sniper to the S5/Poison grouping vs. WKs.

imo, In a setting where WKs can get toe in cover, they come out on top. If not, IKs and WKs are probably about even to me as a Tau player.

I have to specialize a significant portion of my army to deal with IKs. With WKs I have far more options for doing damage, but it'll take more shots.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grav weapons (which are pretty ubiquitous, especially with the new SM codex coming out) completely wreck Wraith Knights.

Except those Multiwounds weapons require getting in CC with a 12" move Wraithknihgt.... Melta is a ranged weapon and usually deployed in a way your opponent can't avoid it.

Sure, Driago is rolling around more.... in a build that was made illegal by the Balance Errata. No more Driago/Loth/Tigerius Centstar.

Yeah, sniper would be inthat group as well. I agree, Toe In Cover is a problem, but is it one that can be easily rectified. I'm tempted to add it to the Errata that its 25% cover for MC/GMCs no matter what.

My Tau had no issues destroying Knights, but Wraithknights are very problematic. There is o readily avialable answer to them in the Tau dex. At their new Errated Cost it is less problematic though and much more balanced.

Grav weapons are a terrible weapon, I'm still pissed at GW for adding a vastly superior option and nearly renders other options obsolete.

**Bharring**

I mostly agree.

I didn't give enough credit to the difference in cover requirements.

That said, isn't "Automatically wounds on an X" more common than "Automatically glances on X"?

**Zagman**

Bharring wrote:
I mostly agree.

I didn't give enough credit to the difference in cover requirements.

That said, isn't "Automatically wounds on an X" more common than "Automatically glances on X"?

Cover is a big difference, even for Melta or other Alpha Strike weapons. Takes nothing to deploy the Wraithknight with a toe in a Ruins for a 4+.... I'm thinking I'll change this rule... but I'm wondering about everything else it changes for other MCs...

Sure they are, but S7 AP4, and High strength low ap and especially Melat/Fusion are vastly more common than any of the other options and those are all the weapons the WK is more resilient against.

**Cytharai**

Ahh yeah, that's my bad. IOM not having battlebros shenanigans is going to take a while to get used to. In the interest of keeping the thread going for other stuff I'm ok with waiting to playtest some changes and see how it goes on the tabletop.

For toe in cover... maybe make it to where intervening terrain can only grant a 5+ to GMCs at best? Hard to gauge how much is 25% on models as lanky as a WK