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Which army has a potentially easier time beating Necrons?
Space Wolves
Tau

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Made in de
Been Around the Block





So I'm about to decide between two armies on which one to pick up as my second army after Dark Eldar, and I'm having a really hard time here. I like both Space Wolves and Tau very much, both fluff wise and play style wise. I'm turned off a little by the "overpowered" stigma of the Tau, but I really like when an army has to synergize very well within itself, with buff like markerlights. Space Wolves seem to be able to take on pretty much anything and are very flexible imho.

So in the end, I thought - why not factor in how both armies stack up vs my most "hated" enemy - the Necrons? Which of the two do you think would have an easier time handling a necron army of warriors, wraiths, destroyers and jetbikes, along with one of those S10 blast arks? Oh and a stalker.

Looking forward to your replies!

PS: Personally I would think Space Wolves - massed shooting, even with Tau, doesn't seem to be the answer vs the Necrons strong saves/protocols
   
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Virginia

Overall, both armies would fair about the same, but I'd pick Space Wolves. They have more variety of guns and can pull off some decent shooting. Plus, you have assault units which can sweep Necrons if you're lucky, which Tau cannot do.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/30 18:06:59


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Made in de
Drone without a Controller





Ft. Lauderdale, Florida

I play strong tau builds (normally farsight enclaves) and always have trouble against the new Necrons. We tend to have high quality shots without the volume to take down invuls followed by rp. I don't know much about space wolves other than the fact that they die just as easy as normal space marines. My guess would be that space wolves would fare better than tau, unless you bring a million fire warriors to drown them in shots
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






I have all three of the armies you've mentioned owning or considering and I think Space Wolves have the easiest time against Necron out of them. The best way I've found to beat Reanimation Protocols is to beat them in close combat and Space Wolves have some hard hitting and tough units that can swing the combat results in their favor. As an alternative, if you have Dark Eldar and haven't played a lot of the coven stuff then I'd also recommend some grotesque heavy lists as they also do well against a lot of the necron units.
   
Made in jp
Regular Dakkanaut





Don't underestimate str 5 and 2 attacks 3+ and 2 wounds on a basic crisis suit at 22pts (no guns!).
   
Made in ie
Ork-Hunting Inquisitorial Xenokiller




Space wolves hands down.
I play necrons, we excel at getting shot at, If that is what the enemy want to do we have no problem taking it. Tau pretty much play to our strengths.

Necron weaknesses (in general)
-Psychic
-Melee
-Speed (we can deploy fast with scythes, can't redeploy mid game though)

Strengths
-getting shot at (helpful that this is the biggest part of the game)
-winnig by attrition.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/18 10:53:41


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Also don't forget that Space Wolves could literally ally anything from any other Imperial book in the game. The new Mechanicum treaded Servitors for example, they can all come with a Heavy Grav Cannon which is 4 / 6 shots and since the relentless that's a lot of Grav going down range

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Made in gb
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot




Being a necron player I don't really understand why people assume we have trouble in melee.

We have five premier melee units which are all massive buffed by lords and d-lords.

Lychguard with warscyhes (25pts each, S7 AP2)
Lychguard with sheilds (3++).
Praetorians (jump, S5AP2 shooting and combat!)
Wraiths
Flayed ones (5 attacks on the charge!)

If I knew I was playing spacewolves I'd take a decurion with a load of lychguard and just charge you off the board.

Something to consider anyway.

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Made in ie
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Ffyllotek wrote:
Being a necron player I don't really understand why people assume we have trouble in melee.

We have five premier melee units which are all massive buffed by lords and d-lords.

Lychguard with warscyhes (25pts each, S7 AP2)
Lychguard with sheilds (3++).
Praetorians (jump, S5AP2 shooting and combat!)
Wraiths
Flayed ones (5 attacks on the charge!)

If I knew I was playing spacewolves I'd take a decurion with a load of lychguard and just charge you off the board.

Something to consider anyway.


Well I assume we are talking TAC list, instead of knowing to bring your melee units.

Wraiths are awesome, expensive though. They will tie up and beat a lot of things, but against S7 AP4+ fire, they are basically 2W marines. They can be dealt with by focus fire. In melee they either win on the charge, or tie something up long enough until one side is removed, they aren't that killy.

Lychguard with WS, are too slow (movement and initiative) to do what's needed, and vulnerable to AP3. A lightning claw on the other side, will lose them the combat.
Shields are great, they make excellent bodyguards, and are decent in assault (S5 powerswords) they are getting expensive though, 30 ppm.

Praets awesome, just awkward to take, judicator is a big enough investment at minimum. Rods are unfortunately AP2 ranged, and if you fire them, AP - in cc for that round of CC. (it's a pita obscure rule, but it's there.) So VB praets are still awesome, but 28 ppm is awkward, and they are still I2 3+ , so lightning claws or similar suck for them. They get the luxury of picking their target though.

Flayed ones rock almost everything in CC, provided they get there intact. I2 still hurts, but who cares when you've got 20 more.

The biggest issue is usually competition. In a CAD, stocking up on melee (other than wraiths) means no deathmarks/stalkers.
In decurion, the minimum cost to bring praets are 405 points, for wraiths it's 150 (for one).

People find lychguard too slow.

Also we have jack all stubborn. You won't move us at range, but you can wipe 20 warriors with one dude with a powermaul. Also makes WS lychguard risky, against anyone with an invuln (hammernators / TWC etc. they have the real risk of being swept.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/05/18 12:58:47


 
   
Made in de
Been Around the Block





Thank you for all your great replies and opinions!

I uh... well, being the unsateable person I am will most likely buy both armies after all :/ But use the Space Wolves vs Necrons
   
Made in us
Irked Necron Immortal




One thing that seems to have been left out is that Necrons want to get close and Space Wolves tend to bring the fight to our doorstep. And Tau have rip tides that are just amazing and broadsides with about 100 missile shots.
   
Made in jp
Proud Triarch Praetorian





Just be aware, all three of the main Necron formations (D.Cult, J.Batt, C.Harv) are going to cause major problems for the armies you've listed (particularly if you're relying on 3+ armor and they show up with a full D.Cult)

 
   
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Two of my friends main SW and Necrons. Since they live together, they play a lot - apparently TWC are about an even match up for Wraith stars in CC. Those Wraiths will wreck any Tau gunline.
   
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lustigjh wrote:
Two of my friends main SW and Necrons. Since they live together, they play a lot - apparently TWC are about an even match up for Wraith stars in CC. Those Wraiths will wreck any Tau gunline.


As a tau player I can second this, those units are horrible.

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Definitely Space Wolves as they can easily match Necron cheese whilst Tau can't anymore
   
Made in au
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Space Wolves, as they can exploit the Necrons' low initiative and decimate them in close combat.
   
Made in jp
Proud Triarch Praetorian





"Decimate" is a bit of a stretch.
Especially if it's against Wraiths.
Or Flayed Ones.
Or Lychguard.
Or even Praetorians.
In fact, unless you're using AP3 or better, the only thing that might be "decimated" would probably be Warriors (and even then, that's only if they don't have a Ghost Ark)

 
   
Made in us
Wicked Canoptek Wraith





I dunno I ran wraiths against a pack of wolves and got decimated.
But then again that was my second game ever.
So maybe I was just bad.

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Did you "just run them" (as in just 3 of them) or run them properly? (as in 6 Harvest Wraiths with back up and shenanigans)

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Honestly, I'd go against the grain here: As a Cron player, I'd be more worried about the Tau.

Against wolves, I'd meet close combat with close combat, and mostly come out on top (except Thunderwolves, I guess.) whilst still most likely having better shooting too. Certainly, my durability superiority would usually mean I have more guns on the table by the mid to late game even if not to begin with.

Against Tau, they're going to bunker down at the back of the table and use half hour shooting phases full of shenanigans to erode my forces as they approach. Something will get over there, but will it be enough? I'd be in more doubt there than against a wolf player.

My biggest asset in that case would be Wraiths, not for their close combat ability but for psyching out the opponent into wasting excessive fire on them. Proportionately they tend to suck up enough Tau shooting to waste a turn doing little else, when in reality literally any Necron close combat unit to reach their gunline will do the same damage.

Mind you, I'm not a Decurion player. If I was then I wouldn't fancy either army standing a real chance. Slim margin to wolves for mobility and thus greater chance of winning on points I guess.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 skoffs wrote:
"Decimate" is a bit of a stretch.
Especially if it's against Wraiths.
Or Flayed Ones.
Or Lychguard.
Or even Praetorians.
In fact, unless you're using AP3 or better, the only thing that might be "decimated" would probably be Warriors (and even then, that's only if they don't have a Ghost Ark)


Well, if you're being literal, Decimate means "kill one tenth of". In that case, yeah: Most Necron units would be Decimated in assault by most Space Wolf units.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/30 11:30:10


 
   
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 krodarklorr wrote:
Overall, both armies would fair about the same, but I'd pick Space Marines. They have more variety of guns and can pull off some decent shooting. Plus, you have assault units which can sweep Necrons if you're lucky, which Tau cannot do.


Assault units sweep a necron unit? Are you insane? Yeah sweep that leadership 10 with rerolls oh you made them take one unsaved wound? so leadership 9.... lol no You're only getting into assault if they want you to so they can use a couple 130 pt unit to tarpit your 280 pt deathstars people love to field even though they are not points efficient for three turns while everything else of yours is dissected or board control is gained

The Tau are 100 times better against the necrons. Dump as many points as possible into broadsides and riptides. Two riptides with some marker light support gives you a good shot at smashing 5- 10 warriors per shot( accounting for scatter with a marker or two) taking away their armor saves and smashing their RP to a 5+ Meaning you may actually kill some and that's before the broadsides unload. Take the Firebase formation obviously so they get tank hunter and all the sudden those broadsides are going to feth vehicles up even at AV13 with their missiles and a squad will kill about 6 necrons per squad which is better than ANY space marine unit will do from range.

Don't take fire warriors. Take kroot and take the minimum. Don't take pathfinders. Just spam broadsides, riptides, sky rays and maybe sniper teams with ethereals (to make broadside leadership 10) and a 6+ FNP

I play necron, Tau and marines and the marines are worse against both

Eldar are best to counter necron by overwhelming them with str 6 scatter shots, but Tau are a close second as long as you don't play them Crisis suit, and fire warriors heavy, which is honestly not the best way to play them against anything right now

Edit: crisis and fire warrior heavy is great against, Nids and Orks, and sometimes guard

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/05/30 18:05:11


 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





Virginia

jakejackjake wrote:
 krodarklorr wrote:
Overall, both armies would fair about the same, but I'd pick Space Marines. They have more variety of guns and can pull off some decent shooting. Plus, you have assault units which can sweep Necrons if you're lucky, which Tau cannot do.


Assault units sweep a necron unit? Are you insane? Yeah sweep that leadership 10 with rerolls oh you made them take one unsaved wound? so leadership 9.... lol no You're only getting into assault if they want you to so they can use a couple 130 pt unit to tarpit your 280 pt deathstars people love to field even though they are not points efficient for three turns while everything else of yours is dissected or board control is gained

The Tau are 100 times better against the necrons. Dump as many points as possible into broadsides and riptides. Two riptides with some marker light support gives you a good shot at smashing 5- 10 warriors per shot( accounting for scatter with a marker or two) taking away their armor saves and smashing their RP to a 5+ Meaning you may actually kill some and that's before the broadsides unload. Take the Firebase formation obviously so they get tank hunter and all the sudden those broadsides are going to feth vehicles up even at AV13 with their missiles and a squad will kill about 6 necrons per squad which is better than ANY space marine unit will do from range.

Don't take fire warriors. Take kroot and take the minimum. Don't take pathfinders. Just spam broadsides, riptides, sky rays and maybe sniper teams with ethereals (to make broadside leadership 10) and a 6+ FNP

I play necron, Tau and marines and the marines are worse against both

Eldar are best to counter necron by overwhelming them with str 6 scatter shots, but Tau are a close second as long as you don't play them Crisis suit, and fire warriors heavy, which is honestly not the best way to play them against anything right now

Edit: crisis and fire warrior heavy is great against, Nids and Orks, and sometimes guard


Sweeping is, in fact, how you kill Necrons. Most people (for whatever reason) don't take Royal Courts and Res orbs very often, so Bloodcrushers, TWC, Nobz, Grotesques, Assault Termies. ext. charging into Warriors/Immortals are going to crumble them. Space Wolves have Wolf Claws and TWC, they would do rather well.

Also, you have too much faith in Riptides and Markerlights. Necrons have Ignores cover weapons on Jetbikes, so bye bye Skyray, and then they'll tarpit/ignore the Riptide and kill what little else you brought. I know you think you have to bring Tau cheese to beat Necrons, but Fire warriors have done rather well against Crons, especially backed up by markerlights and an Ethereal. However, my money is still on Space Wolves.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/30 18:12:53


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ers wrote:
I play strong tau builds (normally farsight enclaves) and always have trouble against the new Necrons. We tend to have high quality shots without the volume to take down invuls followed by rp. I don't know much about space wolves other than the fact that they die just as easy as normal space marines. My guess would be that space wolves would fare better than tau, unless you bring a million fire warriors to drown them in shots


Because crisis suit heavy tau sucks against necrons. You've got to go all broadsides and riptides in the formation supported by kroot to outflank (they have obsec necron warriors don't) ethereals to boost leadership of broadsides and give a 6+ FNP and skyrays as support. Once you have that in your list you can then add in crisis suits but against necrons you want 6 missilesides and 2 tiptides min, with the normal upgrades you're looking at 1060 before the skyrays. I'd go two skyrays and a big sniper team

So with the two riptides with stimms, and IA, 6 broads all missiles with ewo, two kroot squads, ethereal, sniper team with 6 additional drones, and two skyrays you're looking at 1424 So 426 more points to play with and as long as you don't take their flier, stealth suits, or pathfinders you're good. You want to get markerlights on the board but the only units that are going to use them on the field right now are the riptides. They are pretty much wasted points cost(for what it costs to get them on the board and their likelihood of hitting) being used on ANY other unit I have named. I've never lost with Tau. I've never even had any less than a thousand more points than my opponent at the end of the game.

If you want to get accused of spamming cheese just take out the two sky rays and run two 3 man broadside teams in your normal CAD so that's 12 between the firebase formation and the CAD which puts you at 1614 and two elite slots left so NOW you buy crisis suits and kit them to fill the gaps and jet thrust for the last turns to claim the furthest objectives once your main fire power has cleared the way


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 krodarklorr wrote:
jakejackjake wrote:
 krodarklorr wrote:
Overall, both armies would fair about the same, but I'd pick Space Marines. They have more variety of guns and can pull off some decent shooting. Plus, you have assault units which can sweep Necrons if you're lucky, which Tau cannot do.


Assault units sweep a necron unit? Are you insane? Yeah sweep that leadership 10 with rerolls oh you made them take one unsaved wound? so leadership 9.... lol no You're only getting into assault if they want you to so they can use a couple 130 pt unit to tarpit your 280 pt deathstars people love to field even though they are not points efficient for three turns while everything else of yours is dissected or board control is gained

The Tau are 100 times better against the necrons. Dump as many points as possible into broadsides and riptides. Two riptides with some marker light support gives you a good shot at smashing 5- 10 warriors per shot( accounting for scatter with a marker or two) taking away their armor saves and smashing their RP to a 5+ Meaning you may actually kill some and that's before the broadsides unload. Take the Firebase formation obviously so they get tank hunter and all the sudden those broadsides are going to feth vehicles up even at AV13 with their missiles and a squad will kill about 6 necrons per squad which is better than ANY space marine unit will do from range.

Don't take fire warriors. Take kroot and take the minimum. Don't take pathfinders. Just spam broadsides, riptides, sky rays and maybe sniper teams with ethereals (to make broadside leadership 10) and a 6+ FNP

I play necron, Tau and marines and the marines are worse against both

Eldar are best to counter necron by overwhelming them with str 6 scatter shots, but Tau are a close second as long as you don't play them Crisis suit, and fire warriors heavy, which is honestly not the best way to play them against anything right now

Edit: crisis and fire warrior heavy is great against, Nids and Orks, and sometimes guard


Sweeping is, in fact, how you kill Necrons. Most people (for whatever reason) don't take Royal Courts and Res orbs very often, so Bloodcrushers, TWC, Nobz, Grotesques, Assault Termies. ext. charging into Warriors/Immortals are going to crumble them. Space Wolves have Wolf Claws and TWC, they would do rather well.

Also, you have too much faith in Riptides and Markerlights. Necrons have Ignores cover weapons on Jetbikes, so bye bye Skyray, and then they'll tarpit/ignore the Riptide and kill what little else you brought. I know you think you have to bring Tau cheese to beat Necrons, but Fire warriors have done rather well against Crons, especially backed up by markerlights and an Ethereal. However, my money is still on Space Wolves.



FI'm not talking about winning I'm talking about destroying. Spamming anything is cheese. So why spam a unit that is far inferior at killing? The whole point with necrons is that by spreading them your opponent has to either spread his army or focus on a broad side. That's how you win with them. Not by killing things.

Marines aren't that great right now. I've never lost a game to them. Their good units are too easy to counter

Against super friends you kill that one unit and you win. Against cents you just tie them up all game long with 1 measly unit of necrons. I generally run necrons with a firebase formation if I want to dominate. I won't play it friendly anymore because it isn't right to do that to my friends.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2015/05/30 18:25:07


 
   
Made in us
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I'm going to completely buck the trend here and say neither. The durability of the Necrons is a serious problem for both lists being compared here.
   
Made in jp
Proud Triarch Praetorian





I find it amusing that people still expect to sweep Necrons.
Warriors and Immortals? How often are they going to be out of their vehicles?
Most everything else is either fearless, superior in combat, unkillable, or going to kite you all game.

 
   
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 skoffs wrote:
I find it amusing that people still expect to sweep Necrons.
Warriors and Immortals? How often are they going to be out of their vehicles?
Most everything else is either fearless, superior in combat, unkillable, or going to kite you all game.


Tabled necrons with my necron/tau allies without losing one entire units besides tomb blades

He was also running a strong decurion

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/31 17:13:49


 
   
Made in jp
Proud Triarch Praetorian





There you go: the counter to Necrons is Necrons!


But seriously, though,
How did you do so?
What were you both using?
(Also, but way of wondering while we were on the previous topic, what percentage of his units were swept in combat?)

 
   
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 skoffs wrote:
"Decimate" is a bit of a stretch.


Perhaps he was using the tradition meaning of 'decimate'?

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Those happen to be my two least favorite factions in terms of both fluff and crunch, but you do you. I think Space Wolves stand a FAR better chance. Tau have that "overpowered" stigma but they actually aren't so bad. The backfield spread is very vulnerable to fast/deep striking units and only a couple Necron units need to cross the table to tear them apart. Space Wolves are a more balanced threat and, most importantly, they're more adaptable.

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