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Just picked up Vallejo Game Paints catalogue and I am switching over to Vallejo as there is no price rise on the horizon and at $3.95 per 17ml bottle is far cheaper than the Citadel paint which as I have been told will go up to $7.00 per 12 ml pot.

So there you have it, more for less.

 Talys wrote:
Yeah, Leth, I have pretty much exactly the same outlook to kits as you. A huge chunk of the fun is figuring out what I want to build a model as.

I am not really loyal to GW paints. I just happen to like fliptops for paintbrush, but it's not like Vallejo doesn't get a big chunk of my paint money If P3 had more basic colors, I'd probably use a lot more of it.

Dude, I wanted to use all the kits so much, and I love the fluff so I built a deathwatch themed space marine force. I literally spent 2 years gathering all the necessary bits to make it happen.... Don't get me started on getting e deathwatch plastic and terminator shoulder pads that are one per kit for a kit most people don't buy.....naturally I have had to since update my needs with all he chapter specific things like tactical so coming out. But it is so much fun!!!!!!

With allies I have been able to theme my entire imperial collection around it. I have my dkok imperial guard painted as an inquisition army with tempest us scions as their sergeants. I have my skitarii which will be in stygies 8 colors since that is the xenos loving world, I build my marines and motor pool with the fw doors, but it means I can use any models that are similar between books as the same regardless of book I am running. I have a dreadnaught wing made of the different fw venerables and contemptors, a bunch of the relic vehicles(relic predator is next on he list), storm eagle, etc. just that the universe not only allows me to build an army like this, but to hen be able to put it on the table and play!!!!! So much fun

I swear, the number of converted units I have made that cost more than just actually buying the unit......

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/premium-research-buy-niche-leader-151012701.html

Maybe this link has already been posted elsewhere but fits well with the thread here. Always good to read an opinion from an 'outsider'. Clearly points the finger at pricing and general bad management decisions.

 Leth wrote:
I swear, the number of converted units I have made that cost more than just actually buying the unit......

LOL isn't that true?

This is why I love space marines -- the compatibility of parts and the amazing variety of bits, even, even if it turns out to be not a bright idea. Sounds like you have some awesome kitbashes and conversions!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Achaylus72 - holy crap that is insane. I pay about $2.80 USD for a citadel paint.

Ironically, Vallejo is more for me, at about $3.20 USD. But really, a Starbucks coffee is more than the price difference on 10 pots of paint.

@Knockagh - I just read that link. I wonder what kits he's talking about that increased 50% in price since 2010? He is right though - as more data comes in, the trends will be more meaningful. Though as a company with a tiny market cap, like GW, if it isn't losing money, management won't necessarily change their direction.

Most people point to the dire-avengers kit, that is pretty much the only one that meets the 50% boost criteria. It also depends on 50% of what. Do you mean the original release price without factoring in anything else? Many of the kits have actually gone down when they switched to plastic, not even adding in the fact that you get all of those extra bits ( I seriously coked out on the sternguard/vangaurd kits......)

GW do have a habit of halving the contents of a box while only shaving a bit off the price. That's what killed apt of the good value in LotR.

Knockagh wrote:
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/premium-research-buy-niche-leader-151012701.html

Maybe this link has already been posted elsewhere but fits well with the thread here. Always good to read an opinion from an 'outsider'. Clearly points the finger at pricing and general bad management decisions.

Two years ago a local GW store closed for over two weeks while the one store manager was away on holiday, GW answer was to take the cost effective way out and kept the store closed.

Last year four GW stores were closed on the same weekend due to one of the stores operator getting married.

So I looked at the figures taking into account that each GW store is closed for 2 days a week and staff close their stores for an hour everyday for lunch, adding all the hours together it comes to an amazing 5,000 total days lost in trade right here in Australia.

As I said it before GW is losing money, the Australian Market alone this financial year it is expected that GW will have decreased sales of 3 million pounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
GW do have a habit of halving the contents of a box while only shaving a bit off the price. That's what killed apt of the good value in LotR.

Well I remember when Imperial Guard Cadian Shock Troops came in 20 man boxes for $50 AUD, what did GW do, half the box (I mean repackaged) and cut the cost down to $38 AUD per new box and now it costed $76 AUD for the same unit.

The resulted repackage meant that we were subject to a 52% price rise overall. IG sales suffered for a long time afterwards.

 Leth wrote:
Most people point to the dire-avengers kit, that is pretty much the only one that meets the 50% boost criteria. It also depends on 50% of what. Do you mean the original release price without factoring in anything else? Many of the kits have actually gone down when they switched to plastic, not even adding in the fact that you get all of those extra bits ( I seriously coked out on the sternguard/vangaurd kits......)

Oh, lol, are people still hung up on GW repackaging the10-man squad to a 5-man squad? I'd think that by 2015, that'd be the last thing a 40k (Eldar or otherwise) player or hobbyist would be thinking about. The current pricing isn't any different than what another faction would pay for a "better than entry level troop" model, but yeah, okay. Technically, GW didn't double the price over 5 years; they doubled the price overnight on that one box I don't really recall it happening on any other unit though.

To the point of the original topic, I don't think many items are going up in price June 1. This is good news I'm curious to see the complete price list changes; my FLGS owner didn't seem too worried, he just said, "nah, it's just a bit of this and that, no big deal".

My favorite boxes for extra bits are Death Company and Sternguard. They are so much better than, for example, Assault Marines and Command Squad (or Devastator). Can we please have new ones of those?

I agree though: there is a significant modelling value to all those bits. If I had to name one thing I loved most about 40k, that would probably be it -- plus of course, the ability to interchange the bits from one kit to another, like Sternguard lower torso with Blood Angels arms, or Blood Angels respirator head on a non BA model.

PP sells separate bits on their web store. That makes conversions pretty cheap. I just buy the bits I need.

Shame GW stopped selling bits...or allowing others to do so.

 Talys wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

Dark Eldar? 31, same as with Tyranids, too lazy to pull out the books and bundles.

That's not infinite depth. If we're talking distinct models, other games have 40k beat. Warmachine and Infinity in particular apparently do at a quick glance and I don't even play those games (so correct me if I'm wrong).

Where 40K excels(?) is in the number of models required to play when compared to these other games. This means that where you'd buy 4 or 5 of one model for another game, you're buying 20 for 40K. This will keep someone busy modeling and painting to their heart's content.

That's a terrible way of counting. For example, if you buy a box of Kabalites or Wyches, you don't get 1 model. There are dozens of very distinct poses and looks, and at least a few hundred reasonably different combinations. A male kabalite with an agonizer isn't the same model as a female model with a heavy weapon, right?

How many distinct models do you see here?

I admitted I was lazy, what more do you need?

Sure, you can pose a Kabalite a 100 different ways (maybe more for all I care) but it's still a Kabalite, same selection of guns, with or without bits and bobs and serves the same role in game. While you may model them distinctly different, they are not in fact different models just the same one posed differently. If I wear a hat in one picture and don't in another, I'm still me. Yeah, that's a silly analogy but I think you get my point.

For modelling purposes, GW models are fantastic because you get tons of bits and bobs and skulls to splash around and they are designed in such a way as to usually be very flexibly posed but an orange is an orange even if it's slightly larger or a slightly different color.

As I said before:

Where 40K excels(?) is in the number of models required to play when compared to these other games. This means that where you'd buy 4 or 5 of one model for another game, you're buying 20 for 40K. This will keep someone busy modeling and painting to their heart's content.

Most other games don't require you to have 50 of those Kabalites so that you feel that you have to pose or model them differently in order that they don't look like clones when you put them on the table. Yes, you can spend a great deal of time working on a single box of GW miniatures, and for a modeler that's a truly great thing, but I'm primarily a gamer and could care less if Kabalite #100A has a slightly different tilt of the head than Kabalite #109B.

So I guess it's all in what you want from the wargaming hobby. For you, and some others, it's all about making beautifully modeled and painted units that mesh together into a cohesive army that looks fantastic when you play the game. For me, a model is much like a chit from an old Avalon Hill box game, it's representative of something that is related to the game that I'm playing and is simply a means to an end. I don't name my models or develop backstories for them but I appreciate the work of those that do; it's just a different way of approaching things.

NoggintheNog wrote:
In terms of distinct, individual model types, I suspect their are more in Infinity than there are in 40K.

Not really.

For Infinity, you have to realize that while the range appears big with lots of "distinct individual model types" it's bulked out by the fact that each individual profile for a unit tends to get at least one model.

If you were to filter out those models, it brings the size of the range down significantly.

On the topic of price increases, I found an interesting little article from 2012 talking about price increases since 2004.

http://warmaster40k.com/2012/07/11/games-workshop-vs-inflation-the-true-numbers-behind-the-price-increases/

It's a little dated, coming out right around 6th. However, I feel that is more interesting in that prices has risen even more since 2012. My favorite part of the article is the speculation that rule books could reach $100 by 2020- I think at the rate we're going it's going to be way past that.

 Kanluwen wrote:

NoggintheNog wrote:
In terms of distinct, individual model types, I suspect their are more in Infinity than there are in 40K.

Not really.

For Infinity, you have to realize that while the range appears big with lots of "distinct individual model types" it's bulked out by the fact that each individual profile for a unit tends to get at least one model.

If you were to filter out those models, it brings the size of the range down significantly.

There's still more (or at least as many) unit types in an infinity faction than in a 40k one, I think?

 Kanluwen wrote:

NoggintheNog wrote:
In terms of distinct, individual model types, I suspect their are more in Infinity than there are in 40K.

Not really.

For Infinity, you have to realize that while the range appears big with lots of "distinct individual model types" it's bulked out by the fact that each individual profile for a unit tends to get at least one model.

If you were to filter out those models, it brings the size of the range down significantly.

I don't follow this. Because there are models for each sub unit, the range of models isn't as big?

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

NoggintheNog wrote:
In terms of distinct, individual model types, I suspect their are more in Infinity than there are in 40K.

Not really.

For Infinity, you have to realize that while the range appears big with lots of "distinct individual model types" it's bulked out by the fact that each individual profile for a unit tends to get at least one model.

If you were to filter out those models, it brings the size of the range down significantly.

There's still more (or at least as many) unit types in an infinity faction than in a 40k one, I think?

That depends on if you're breaking it down by Sectorial or Vanilla.

[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]

I gleefully wait for the day that the inevitable collapse arrives.

Apologists have slowly shifted their arguments from, "they will bounce back and be better than ever!" to "GW is doing fine because despite trends they have not failed yet, and besides I still buy."

I actively discourage people from GW. not, in the manner that I just say, "Oh, that's expensive."

No.

I will walk over to the GW section of the local FLGS where Timmy is browsing 40K, pull mom to the side and give her the low down of what GW is really about.

Then I convince her to buy Timmy said some X-wing or Warmachine or infinity for the less than what would have been spent on GW and is an actual complete force that can be played with.

Herzlos wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

NoggintheNog wrote:
In terms of distinct, individual model types, I suspect their are more in Infinity than there are in 40K.

Not really.

For Infinity, you have to realize that while the range appears big with lots of "distinct individual model types" it's bulked out by the fact that each individual profile for a unit tends to get at least one model.

If you were to filter out those models, it brings the size of the range down significantly.

I don't follow this. Because there are models for each sub unit, the range of models isn't as big?

To use an example:
The Neoterran Bolts are a PanOceanian unit. There are multiple profiles within the unit itself, profiles being the different weapon/skill options. Hackers get unique models, even if they have a profile that is the same as the 'standard' loadout for that unit.
So there is a model for a Neoterran Bolt with a Multi Sniper Rifle, a model for a Neoterran Bolt with a Spitfire, Neoterran Bolt with the 'Hacker visor' and Boarding Shotgun(which is what the Hacker profile comes equipped with)...in addition to three models loaded with the standard Combi Rifle and Light Shotgun.

 Accolade wrote:
On the topic of price increases, I found an interesting little article from 2012 talking about price increases since 2004.

http://warmaster40k.com/2012/07/11/games-workshop-vs-inflation-the-true-numbers-behind-the-price-increases/

It's a little dated, coming out right around 6th. However, I feel that is more interesting in that prices has risen even more since 2012. My favorite part of the article is the speculation that rule books could reach $100 by 2020- I think at the rate we're going it's going to be way past that.

I've already mentioned it once, but it's probably worth stating explicitly again.

UK inflation dropped into negative % for the first time in at least 50 (think it may be 60) years this week.

jamesk1973 wrote:

Spoiler:

The white knight is strong in Talys. Very strong.


The sooner GW's upper management catches syphilis and dies the better. I gleefully wait for the day that the inevitable collapse arrives.

Apologists have slowly shifted their arguments from, "they will bounce back and be better than ever!" to "GW is doing fine because despite trends they have not failed yet, and besides I still buy."

I actively discourage people from GW. not, in the manner that I just say, "Oh, that's expensive."

No.

I will walk over to the GW section of the local FLGS where Timmy is browsing 40K, pull mom to the side and give her the low down of what GW is really about.

Then I convince her to buy Timmy said some X-wing or Warmachine or infinity for the less than what would have been spent on GW and is an actual complete force that can be played with.

 Talys wrote:
Oh, lol, are people still hung up on GW repackaging the10-man squad to a 5-man squad? I'd think that by 2015, that'd be the last thing a 40k (Eldar or otherwise) player or hobbyist would be thinking about. The current pricing isn't any different than what another faction would pay for a "better than entry level troop" model, but yeah, okay. Technically, GW didn't double the price over 5 years; they doubled the price overnight on that one box I don't really recall it happening on any other unit though.

The "halving box contents" for a minor discount happened with pretty much every 40k army squad box which provided a 16-20 man "core infantry box". Ork Boyz, IG infantry, Eldar (although they got a weapon platform in the recut to offset the price rise) and Tyranid Gaunts. This keeps on happening as the Fantasy Regiments get redone. e.g. High Elves pay $42cdn for 16 (old box), Dark Elves pay $40cdn for 10 (new box). The price-point for elite units like Witch Elves is nonsensically priced at $70cdn (this is insane, considering that Witch Elves are core IIRC).

Honestly, IMHO, GW is free to charge whatever they want for their models - however, the apparent randomness in setting prices and the complete abandonment of pricing bands is confusing nonsense. The ex GW players at my FLGS have this game where when a GW new release comes in, everyone throws down a wager as to which price band it is supposed to fall in... Not only are they completely unable to pick the price based on previous releases, they usually still underestimate by between $5-10 per box.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Herzlos wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

NoggintheNog wrote:
In terms of distinct, individual model types, I suspect their are more in Infinity than there are in 40K.

Not really.

For Infinity, you have to realize that while the range appears big with lots of "distinct individual model types" it's bulked out by the fact that each individual profile for a unit tends to get at least one model.

If you were to filter out those models, it brings the size of the range down significantly.

I don't follow this. Because there are models for each sub unit, the range of models isn't as big?

To use an example:
The Neoterran Bolts are a PanOceanian unit. There are multiple profiles within the unit itself, profiles being the different weapon/skill options. Hackers get unique models, even if they have a profile that is the same as the 'standard' loadout for that unit.
So there is a model for a Neoterran Bolt with a Multi Sniper Rifle, a model for a Neoterran Bolt with a Spitfire, Neoterran Bolt with the 'Hacker visor' and Boarding Shotgun(which is what the Hacker profile comes equipped with)...in addition to three models loaded with the standard Combi Rifle and Light Shotgun.

Cool, I follow that. So there are more 40K units than Infinity units? I'm not that familiar with Infinity (and falling behind with 40K) but I was certainly surprised by the variety last time I looked at the Infinity website.

jamesk1973 wrote:


I will walk over to the GW section of the local FLGS where Timmy is browsing 40K, pull mom to the side and give her the low down of what GW is really about.

Then I convince her to buy Timmy said some X-wing or Warmachine or infinity for the less than what would have been spent on GW and is an actual complete force that can be played with.

I'll bet she just loves that.

GW raise prices. Is that news now?

 Kanluwen wrote:

NoggintheNog wrote:
In terms of distinct, individual model types, I suspect their are more in Infinity than there are in 40K.

Not really.

For Infinity, you have to realize that while the range appears big with lots of "distinct individual model types" it's bulked out by the fact that each individual profile for a unit tends to get at least one model.

If you were to filter out those models, it brings the size of the range down significantly.

Kinda like Space Marines or Imperial Guard? Individual models are individual models.. it does not matter why they exist. If you're not collecting them for Infinity then they are for all intents and purposes separate and unique.

This whole discussion has already fallen directly into the pattern all of these go.


OP:
GW is (insert verb that most people would seem to agree is nefarious)
Most People: I agree!
GW White Knights: But GW is the best.. all that other stuff only exists because of GW and so that you poor peasants can afford 40k
Most People: Uh.. not so much anymore..
GW White Knights: You're wrong.. and stupid.. but mostly wrong
Most People: Uh.. yeah.. no.. but also reasons
GW Apologists: We know it's crappy but GW is still awesome after all right???
Most People: Ugh..

I've never seen one of these conversations on any forum go any way other than this.. unless it's the Mantic Forum.. in which at this point the White Knight has been banned and everyone else has out their pitchforks.

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

jamesk1973 wrote:


I will walk over to the GW section of the local FLGS where Timmy is browsing 40K, pull mom to the side and give her the low down of what GW is really about.

Then I convince her to buy Timmy said some X-wing or Warmachine or infinity for the less than what would have been spent on GW and is an actual complete force that can be played with.

I'll bet she just loves that.

GW raise prices. Is that news now?

Kind of.

It isn't the price increase, it's the departure from the recent pattern of stealth increases disguised by new releases and updates. I guess paints and tools probably cost too much to relaunch to stick an extra few percent on for no good reason.

As much as I malign GW for their pricing... I can't really bring myself to care about this one because it barely effects me. I only occasionally buy "base" paints from GW, everything else I buy elsewhere. I've never bought many hobby tools from them. I used to buy sprays from them but haven't for a while now. So at most this is going to cost me a couple of dollars a year more from the 25c increase to paints, assuming I don't just swap to another brand entirely.

The only paints I really buy from GW are the technical ones, since I like how things like Blood for the Blood God and their Rust look compared to other companies. Their Dry paints are decent too.

Honestly, I think their primer sprays are the best I've used, with only Army Painter working nearly as well. But, I usually go wtih Army Painter anyway for their colored, so that's not a huge change for me.

 agnosto wrote:
Sure, you can pose a Kabalite a 100 different ways (maybe more for all I care) but it's still a Kabalite, same selection of guns, with or without bits and bobs and serves the same role in game. While you may model them distinctly different, they are not in fact different models just the same one posed differently. If I wear a hat in one picture and don't in another, I'm still me. Yeah, that's a silly analogy but I think you get my point.

Yeah, sure, but I was just contesting the way you counted up models. For example, one box of Trollblood Scattergunners comes with 5-6 models. I would count that as 5-6, not as 1 (because it's 1 kit). Similarly, you might not count Kabalites as 100,000 models, but it's certainly unfair to call them 1. At least 20 or so that would be so distinct as to be clearly different from each other, in the same way that the Scattergunners are the same type of unit, but distinct models. Like, males are not the same as females; whips are not the same as pistols; big heavy weapons are not the same as rifles, et cetera -- just because they come in the same box.

To take a more extreme example, Adeptus Mechanicus Kastellan Robots comes with 2 robots and 1 datasmith. Surely, that counts as 2 distinct models, not 1? And surely, Farseer + Warlocks box counts as 4 distinct models, since they are single pose and all look different, right? And Choas Terminator Lord / Chaos Sorceror are "different" since the two builds are unrecognizable as coming from the same box?

I think you understand what I'm saying 50 kits != 50 models.

 agnosto wrote:
So I guess it's all in what you want from the wargaming hobby. For you, and some others, it's all about making beautifully modeled and painted units that mesh together into a cohesive army that looks fantastic when you play the game. For me, a model is much like a chit from an old Avalon Hill box game, it's representative of something that is related to the game that I'm playing and is simply a means to an end. I don't name my models or develop backstories for them but I appreciate the work of those that do; it's just a different way of approaching things.

Absolutely. I agree with what you say 100%. For anyone who feels that a model is just a chit from an old Avon Hill box game, I think 40k is a terrible hobby.

40k is a wonderful hobby for people who enjoy building beautiful armies, and for like-minded individuals to enjoy games (and each others' armies) together. It is a terrible hobby for someone who just wants to have counters to play for a game, because why go blow 1,000 hours figuring out whether to glue on a bolt pistols or power fists; why magnetize jetpacks and backpacks; why go through 200-piece kits? If modelling is a nuisance and just a requirement to game, 40k (and any other game with multipiece configurable models, or big complex models) should not be a serious consideration.

Also, a $50 model is really cheap if you plan to spend 50 hours on it and really enjoy that time -- even if the model blows chunks when you play it on the battlefield. It's damned expensive if you want to put it three together in 1 hour, spray paint them, play them once, and then decide to shelve them if because they're not as useful as you thought. Or, because the rules changed and they got nerfed

Herzlos wrote:


Cool, I follow that. So there are more 40K units than Infinity units? I'm not that familiar with Infinity (and falling behind with 40K) but I was certainly surprised by the variety last time I looked at the Infinity website.

No. An Infinity faction has more units than a 40k faction to begin with and given that instead of generic weapon swaps you actually have a distinct individual model for each option in Infinity, the model variety in Infinity is much, much larger than in 40k.

My thing (which is off-topic it would seem) is that if I want a general sci-fi human.. I want to pick everything about it. If I want it to have a tactical vest, rolled up sleeves, a pulse rifle from Aliens, and an untucked shirt with armored shins then I'll be buying pieces from 3-6 places. At the end of the day, I'm paying more per model than any 40k player.. but it's exactly the model I want. I don't buy components that are substandard and I wish people would stop implying that non-gw = substandard.

As an example.. I wanted to make The Expendables. I have most of the army already and it's usable as Imperial G... ah wait... lol they are something else now.. anyway.. I can also use them in other systems. I have powered armor that is not adorned in skulls.. some of it from Dust, some of it from other sources.. I can use it in a number of ways and still come back to 40k. However, since I have been collecting since the 90s, I have scads of Spesh Muhreens of various flavors as well..
If I don't like the look of something like GWs ridiculous flyers (minus Valkyrie..it's purty) or the comical Centurions.. then I have absolutely no problem finding something to use. Sometimes it costs more.. but I have the added benefit that I've had my fill of grimdark. I'm good.. I don't feel any obligation to GW or that setting.. I'm playing a game and the setting of that game is not something I feel enslaved by. If I wanted to use 20mm Star Wars miniatures as 40k.. no problem.
I don't like fielding tanks that you could stuff a trashcan into the breech.. so I typically don't. I like flyers that look like they could fly.. I like weapons that are the correct scale.. so yeah.. I use what I want.. GW and GW Loyalty are a joke to me. Sure, you like their flavor.. ok. We get it. You have money.. we get that too.. and don't care. You are not alone in blindly supporting GW but there are not many of you left.
You won't win anyone over by talking down to people who have had enough. While packing for my move, I filled box after box and numerous cases with GW models, sprues, bits, etc. I felt sadness and pity.

This song pretty much encapsulates my feelings towards Games Workshop.. this will be my last post in this topic.. I've given GW enough.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnOZDgBNtO0

@Mlaw - hey, if you're fed up with GW stuff and none of their new aesthetics appeal to you, **of course** you should do other things that you have more fun with. Nobody should talk down whichever hobby you choose, though it is perfectly civil to explain why it's not the right hobby for them. They should do so without denigrating your preference.

By the same token, people who are fed up with GW should do the courtesy of being civil to GW fans, and not saying or implying that they are sheep, rich people that blindly hand over money to a bad company, or that there aren't many of them left. Keep the insults against the hobbyists and players out of it, because even thou you are fed up, there are people who like GW models just because they like GW models, and they deserve the same courtesy as people who like infinity models just because there are cool chicks with guns!