Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Wulfmar wrote:
Sweet Jesus, just saw what's gone up on the GW site today!

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Ten-Man-Assault-Squad

£50 for a squad of 'new' assault marines. - That's the same as a Stormraven Gunship

Or £30 if you buy two of the old boxes from Darksphere to make a 10-man squad.

Those grav pistols are mighty expensive!



At least the Chapter Upgrade packs on in-line with previous upgrade packs like the Iron Warriors and Chaos Biker packs

true, but 10 for only one handy click. seems worth it to me.

$70aud for five minis? LOL!

 Sidstyler wrote:
It should be pointed out though that he only feels it's worth buying and painting if he can get it at a discount. That he refuses to buy retail is pretty much an admission that the retail asking price is way too high.

Also kind of a weird stance to take when you make such a big deal out of supporting the company, and your friends employed at said company. Buying retail supports GW more than buying online at a discount, and buying directly from GW's website supports them the most as they take all the profit from it. But whatever.

i think you misunderstand me...
i don't pay retail for 90% of the things i buy...
to be honest, most of the things in my life are free, like clothes, surfboards, paints, and models, because i get sponsored...
i look for a deal because that is the kind of person that i am...
i am a hustler, who has been on the street corner since i was 10 years old, making moves
i don't live any kind of normal life, and haven't since i was a little kid...
hell, i'm 40, and have never had a bill (phone, credit card, whatever)...
i've just surfed and painted my way around the world...
so, i guess, based on that, i should never speak up in a discussion about money...

i never said i will ONLY buy on a discount or that i REFUSE to pay retail for anything, i just take advantage of a discount when it is there...
if anything i want is direct only, i'll buy it, but why should i pass up the chance to let my homie order it for me, and get the employee discount???
why should i pay retail if a discount is on offer???
my money is still going to GW...
i may be crazy, but i am not stupid...
if i can get a deal, i'm going to go for it, that is just how i am...

i thought we were having a discussion, and i shared my feelings...
i was not trying to make a "big deal" out of anything...
when i take the 20% on offer in a friend's shop, that also employs people, both GW and the store are being supported...
i may only be spreading the love a little bit at a time, but i am still doing my little part to support what i enjoy...
i wasn't climbing on a high-horse, or getting self-righteous, i'm just explaining why i'm not upset about the fun things in life getting a little more expensive every year...

i'll go back to painting quietly now...

cheers
jah

 Sidstyler wrote:
It should be pointed out though that he only feels it's worth buying and painting if he can get it at a discount. That he refuses to buy retail is pretty much an admission that the retail asking price is way too high.

Also kind of a weird stance to take when you make such a big deal out of supporting the company, and your friends employed at said company. Buying retail supports GW more than buying online at a discount, and buying directly from GW's website supports them the most as they take all the profit from it. But whatever.

That's a bizarre conclusion to draw.

I almost never pay MSRP on GW product simply because I can always buy with a 25-35% discount, depending on whether it's a regular or web-only order, and which store I go to. So, other than some outlier event (like that Golden Ticket contest, which was fun, I guess, and at Christmas time, when I wanted one of the Ork Christmas cards to give to someone), the reason to buy at a discount is because... you can?

Also: there's a great reason to buy from your FLGS rather than directly from GW. It's how you support your local hobby store! I like my local stores much better than I like GW's retail stores. I'm a strong believer that local stores are a better advocate for their product. And my local stores sell non-GW stuff, of which I buy plenty. Plus, when you buy GW (or PP, Vallejo, whatever) product from your local store, you can potentially support two companies that you like!

 jah-joshua wrote:
2. i am friends with most of the people on the 'Eavy Metal team, past and present, and you are correct, their personal projects are mind-blowing, though i think that saying the studio work "makes them look hilariously incompetent" is pretty harsh...

Some of it does, for example this exists:

That's the same piece copied in photoshop 11 times?

 jah-joshua wrote:
i wasn't climbing on a high-horse, or getting self-righteous, i'm just explaining why i'm not upset about the fun things in life getting a little more expensive every year...

Well then never mind I guess, because that's kinda how I interpreted it.

@Talys: I do support my local stores. Only thing is I don't get discounts because I really don't think they can afford to sell at a discount, so every time prices go up it does affect me if what I'm after is GW product. Consequently I don't really buy that much anymore.

 Sidstyler wrote:

 jah-joshua wrote:
i wasn't climbing on a high-horse, or getting self-righteous, i'm just explaining why i'm not upset about the fun things in life getting a little more expensive every year...

Well then never mind I guess, because that's kinda how I interpreted it.

@Talys: I do support my local stores. Only thing is I don't get discounts because I really don't think they can afford to sell at a discount, so every time prices go up it does affect me if what I'm after is GW product. Consequently I don't really buy that much anymore.

Standard trade discount for stores is 40% (so, that's the same thing as a 40% profit margin). I have supported my stores since Rogue Trader, and they simply look at it another way: gross profit, rather than profit margin.

Once upon a time, 5 miniatures cost $10. They made $4 on that box.. Now, this was a long time ago, so that $4 went further back then.

At some point, many years later, 5 miniatures cost $25. They could have made $10 a box. Instead of pocketing all that, they gave me a discount -- about 15%, so they made $6.25 a box.

Years after that, 5 miniatures went to $50. They could have made $15 a box. But instead of pocketing all that, they gave me a bigger discount -- about 25%, so they made $7.50 a box.

Those aren't exact numbers, obviously, and it didn't happen in exactly those steps, but you get the idea. It wasn't necessary for my local store to make $15 off of each box of space marines they sold me, because it wasn't like where I used to buy 5 boxes, now I only buy 1. I was still buying 5 boxes, and they only really needed to make about $7-8 a box, so they just gave me a 25% discount.

They recognize that every time GW increases prices, they actually make more money if they just sell the product to me at MSRP. So what do they do? They share the cut of that with me. It works out a little better for them, and it makes it a little easier for me. So I show my appreciation by going there and buying stuff from them

This, by the way, is why 30%+ discounts are possible now. The dollar amounts are so much higher that there are still profits to be had, even with significant discounts. It's also not just the box of 5 marines that costs more, too. it's that there are lots of big, jumbo boxes that cost $150+.

 Talys wrote:

They recognize that every time GW increases prices, they actually make more money if they just sell the product to me at MSRP. So what do they do? They share the cut of that with me. It works out a little better for them, and it makes it a little easier for me. So I show my appreciation by going there and buying stuff from them

There are a lot of people out there who are not like you though and have stopped buying 5 boxes.

I don't know about Canada but stores in Australia are seeing less sales and they are blaming it on GWs business practices making them less money.

Your entire point is based on the idea that sales are remaining flat as the price changes, and yes that would give a greater profit to the FLGS, but GW sales are plummeting.

 jonolikespie wrote:
There are a lot of people out there who are not like you though and have stopped buying 5 boxes.

I don't know about Canada but stores in Australia are seeing less sales and they are blaming it on GWs business practices making them less money.

Your entire point is based on the idea that sales are remaining flat as the price changes, and yes that would give a greater profit to the FLGS, but GW sales are plummeting.

Oh, I won't argue at all with you that the Australian/New Zealand prices are insane. It doesn't make any sense to me.

The discounts make a huge difference, though. What some hobby stores do is they have tiered discounts, so that if you spend over a you get x%, over b, you get y % over c you get z%. However, you are, of course, right: some people have fled 40k, because the aggregate price is too high.

It's still a huge component of what my 3 favorite stores sell, though, and they would be in some serious trouble if they had to make do without GW products.

The point is the ultimate fate is with the consumers. And if enough consumers flee GW it doesn't matter what they or your FLGS do.

And honestly I am in the 'hope GW gets bought out or collapses and sells IP' camp at this point.

Their pricing, and other practices are clear indicators that they are deep into a death spiral.

 SickSix wrote:
The point is the ultimate fate is with the consumers. And if enough consumers flee GW it doesn't matter what they or your FLGS do.

That's happening here, a fair few FLGSs here don't need GW any more and are happy to drop them as no one ever has anything good to say about how GW treats their trade customers. I'd have said that in two years time GW will have few FLGSs carrying their product still but with their recent new set of trade terms approved by the ACCC I would say only 1 year as they themselves will be cutting a lot of ties (all those pesky, freeloading online only stores) and the larger stores seem to be in the position og GW needing them, not them needing GW as GW seems to want to believe.

 Talys wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:

 jah-joshua wrote:
i wasn't climbing on a high-horse, or getting self-righteous, i'm just explaining why i'm not upset about the fun things in life getting a little more expensive every year...

Well then never mind I guess, because that's kinda how I interpreted it.

@Talys: I do support my local stores. Only thing is I don't get discounts because I really don't think they can afford to sell at a discount, so every time prices go up it does affect me if what I'm after is GW product. Consequently I don't really buy that much anymore.

Standard trade discount for stores is 40% (so, that's the same thing as a 40% profit margin). I have supported my stores since Rogue Trader, and they simply look at it another way: gross profit, rather than profit margin.

Once upon a time, 5 miniatures cost $10. They made $4 on that box.. Now, this was a long time ago, so that $4 went further back then.

At some point, many years later, 5 miniatures cost $25. They could have made $10 a box. Instead of pocketing all that, they gave me a discount -- about 15%, so they made $6.25 a box.

Years after that, 5 miniatures went to $50. They could have made $15 a box. But instead of pocketing all that, they gave me a bigger discount -- about 25%, so they made $7.50 a box.

Those aren't exact numbers, obviously, and it didn't happen in exactly those steps, but you get the idea. It wasn't necessary for my local store to make $15 off of each box of space marines they sold me, because it wasn't like where I used to buy 5 boxes, now I only buy 1. I was still buying 5 boxes, and they only really needed to make about $7-8 a box, so they just gave me a 25% discount.

They recognize that every time GW increases prices, they actually make more money if they just sell the product to me at MSRP. So what do they do? They share the cut of that with me. It works out a little better for them, and it makes it a little easier for me. So I show my appreciation by going there and buying stuff from them

This, by the way, is why 30%+ discounts are possible now. The dollar amounts are so much higher that there are still profits to be had, even with significant discounts. It's also not just the box of 5 marines that costs more, too. it's that there are lots of big, jumbo boxes that cost $150+.

Not everyone is fortunate enough to have a store that gives 25% off, though. In fact, around here the best a store can do is 10% off, or GW will stop supplying them.

A lot of the sentiments I've seen in this thread regarding the Assault Marines remind me of my thoughts when the AdMech Dominus kit came out. When I saw this model was coming up I was sure I'd buy it just for painting. But £22 for one infantry model? Even if I get it with a 20% discount at my LGS that's still £17.60.

I like the model. It is very detailed. It looks good. But it is simply too expensive. Other companies could give me anywhere between 10-40 miniatures (which would probably be multipart and the same material) for that price.

 Fezman wrote:
A lot of the sentiments I've seen in this thread regarding the Assault Marines remind me of my thoughts when the AdMech Dominus kit came out.

Yep. That thing was absurd.

$62 AUD, I recall buying a metal lord of the rings character blister that came with a single infantry model AND a metal cavalry (40mm base) model for only like $24 AUD.

 jonolikespie wrote:

 Fezman wrote:
A lot of the sentiments I've seen in this thread regarding the Assault Marines remind me of my thoughts when the AdMech Dominus kit came out.

Yep. That thing was absurd.

$62 AUD, I recall buying a metal lord of the rings character blister that came with a single infantry model AND a metal cavalry (40mm base) model for only like $24 AUD.

Wait the Dominus is $62 AUD? I thought maybe you'd got the wrong model or something, but I just checked. $62 AUD for one plastic model is crazy. That's £31!

 jah-joshua wrote:

Kirby is an account iirc, which means he has no soul, but instead has a void filled with your money...

I just want to interject that Reaper Miniatures is owned by accountants - yet still seems to have more soul than GW....

The Auld Grump

A picture is worth a thousand words.

I haven't purchased a brand new GW model in 7 years.

It's a sad state, I fell in love with the Warhammer worlds as a kid and I'm not sure how long it will take that horribly mismanaged company to ruin it, but they're certainly doing their best to find out.

Every 3-6 months I check back hoping a glimpse of sanity will come but it seems live they're latest gimmick is to try and sell things in a confusing manner as possible.

When I started playing Warhammer a box of 20 models cost $20. For almost any race/game/army you could think of.

My parents thought that was nuts. Look at them now. Completely ridiculous. If you are still buying models from GW, please stop. Only the complete and total collapse of this company could rescue the Warhammer universe from them.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:

 Fezman wrote:
A lot of the sentiments I've seen in this thread regarding the Assault Marines remind me of my thoughts when the AdMech Dominus kit came out.

Yep. That thing was absurd.

$62 AUD, I recall buying a metal lord of the rings character blister that came with a single infantry model AND a metal cavalry (40mm base) model for only like $24 AUD.

Wait the Dominus is $62 AUD? I thought maybe you'd got the wrong model or something, but I just checked. $62 AUD for one plastic model is crazy. That's £31!

Yes, I thought it was bad enough that it already costs as much as some tank kits in this country...

At this rate, if we ever build a city on the Moon at least Australia will only be the second most expensive place to buy Warhammer.

 Korraz wrote:
Not everyone is fortunate enough to have a store that gives 25% off, though. In fact, around here the best a store can do is 10% off, or GW will stop supplying them.

But, you live in Austria. In the EU (and Canada/US) that is not legal. But in Europe, you can buy GW stuff off the Internet at 25% off, can't you?

Now, I won't disagree that Dominus is expensive. It's USD$36. However, I purchased the model, and as I tinkered with the sprue and blue-tac it together -- that is one of the most amazing models that GW has ever made for a 50mm base. The detail, sculpting, and even options (who doesn't like the robot pope hat?) are just exquisite.

So, yes, he's expensive. But guess what? So is another one of my favorite recent models from Privateer Press -- USD $60 for Borka, also on a 50mm base.




Are they worth $36 and $60 respectively? Obviously, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. One thing is clear though: Neither is being priced as a plastic game pieces; they're being priced as miniature collectibles and unpainted miniature sculptures.

Yet one is made from injection molded plastic, and the other is resin.

The one made from plastic has a production cost measured in pennies.

Though I am unlikely to buy either, I would consider the Borka to be marginally more reasonable in its pricing.

The Auld Grump

*EDIT* The bear seems to do a better job of filling its base, as well. Why is the GW figure on a 50mm. base, anyway?

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
Yet one is made from injection molded plastic, and the other is resin.

The one made from plastic has a production cost measured in pennies.

Though I am unlikely to buy either, I would consider the Borka to be marginally more reasonable in its pricing.

The Auld Grump

*EDIT* The bear seems to do a better job of filling its base, as well. Why is the GW figure on a 50mm. base, anyway?

Borka is way more expensive than Dominus (40%), though I assure you neither model is priced based on material costs -- which is pennies in both cases. As a relative percentage to the sale price, the cost of the plastic or resin is virtually zero. Both are priced being based on being great sculptures. If you read the PP forums, people are begging for injection molded plastic (and this is the direction of PP).

Dominus fills out his 50mm base nicely. In 40k, the alternative would be a 40mm base, and he would be too big for the base.

To pick another "smaller" 50mm base miniature that I love, Bradigus is also $35, and if you take away the cape (which is just a very simple piece of resin) the miniature is quite small:



And this 40mm base Scaverous, actually belongs on a 50mm base (IMO), and is $40:


Anyways, my point is simple -- why is a well-sculpted 40mm-50mm warcaster in the $40 - $60 range NOT too expensive, when the same price for a 40k HQ is too expensive? My answer is that neither is too expensive. You only buy one for your whole army, so the true cost of the model for PP or GW is high (few sales compared to opportunity costs of modelling it, since every AdMech player will probably buy just 1). I would rather have an expensive, spectacular HQ unit, than a cheap, unspectacular one.

Comparison is a bit weird... I mean PP stuff looks like its double the size of the gw one... and thats not even considering the material.

 loki old fart wrote:
A picture is worth a thousand words.

What does "MES WOR" mean?

 NAVARRO wrote:
Comparison is a bit weird... I mean PP stuff looks like its double the size of the gw one... and thats not even considering the material.

Scaverous and Dominus are actually roughly the same size and bulk, even though Scaverous is on a smaller base. Like I said, he feels like he's falling off his base anyhow. At the prices of these things, the most significant difference in material cost is that plastic is a much more expensive setup and requires a bigger run, but cheaper per unit, while and resin/metal requires smaller runs, but is slightly more expensive per unit. But if you melted down the materials whether it was pewter or plastic, it wouldn't be worth a biscuit at McDonald's, so what does it matter?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here you go, the parts for Dominus and Bradigus side-by-side. I had an unassembled one of each.

Note that the resin pieces of Bradigus aren't that spectacular. The chunks of rock are actually something that I can be made with really basic sculpting skills, and the cape is pretty bland. The only really beautiful sculpting is in the metal model -- I imagine the sculptor spent 90%+ of his time on the metal parts. And he's almost exactly the same price as Dominus.

well lol that is easy, both privateer press and games workshop are ripping us off.

that bradigus model for $35 is a total waste of money. you would never catch me paying that for him. he is like a $8 model with a resin cape and some rocks.

the dominus model looks pretty complicated, I guess I would pay $15. oh well, i guess i will never own either lol.

In regards to PP pricing vs GW you also need to consider the in-game value for each model relative to their respective game systems. I'm not super familiar with WMH, but a Warcaster or even a big solo is going to make a considerable impact on your army list. The Dominus will certainly add value to your army as well, but not on the same level as a WMH solo or caster.

The hobby is wargaming, not warmodeling, warconverting or warpainting. Gaming is what allowed GW and other companies to grow to the size they are. It's obvious not even GW really believes their "we cater to an incredibly small niche of collectors." Look at the amount of rules they sell now, it's more than any game system I've ever heard of.

As the painting and modelling side of of the hobby is what I love the most. £22 doesn't seem too bad for a centrepiece model considering the amount of time I would get for modelling and painting the piece (and admiring it once I am done). And I can't wait to get one for my AdMech.

I do though gawk at the price for a "standard" 40k army. But what it tells me is that people should be playing smaller games! For me a 2000 point army is something I will work to collect over many years. Not bulk buy at once.

But that's just my opinion on things, people can play the game how they want.

 Dendarien wrote:
In regards to PP pricing vs GW you also need to consider the in-game value for each model relative to their respective game systems. I'm not super familiar with WMH, but a Warcaster or even a big solo is going to make a considerable impact on your army list. The Dominus will certainly add value to your army as well, but not on the same level as a WMH solo or caster.

The hobby is wargaming, not warmodeling, warconverting or warpainting. Gaming is what allowed GW and other companies to grow to the size they are. It's obvious not even GW really believes their "we cater to an incredibly small niche of collectors." Look at the amount of rules they sell now, it's more than any game system I've ever heard of.

Nope, I wholeheartedly disagree. The hobby is what you make of it: whether it's gaming, painting, converting, modelling, or simply collecting brand new boxes.

Games Workshop's attitude is that 40k is a game for like-minded hobbyists. The whole ecosystem, and the White Dwarf magazine is as dedicated to painting as it is to modelling as it is to the game. For instance, from a game perspective, what does it matter what the difference is between a Mk VI and Mk IV armor? Or from a space marine in a robe versus one in a plain Mk7 armor versus one in an artificed armor? For that matter, from a *wargaming* perspective, why not just use paper cutouts on round bases for all miniature-based games?

Of course, in a game with 25 miniatures, your one centerpiece model will make more impact, than a game where the median army size is 3 times larger, and the table is almost 2 times larger. In a game with 8 miniatures, each miniature has even more game value, so should each miniature be sold at a price of 4x more? That logic just doesn't make any sense at all, except to say that for some people, 40k is too expensive a game because it requires too many miniatures.

I just disagree with the premise that a model is should sell for more money because it has a bigger impact on the game. A model should sell for more money if it's a fancier model, and it's a smaller run with less sell-through potential. A model should sell for less money if it's a more basic model, and it's a bigger run, because the company is going to sell a hundred times as many. If it were my company, this is how I would price it.