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Thanks, JamesY---I assume that some of the custodians may have helped the Emperor hold back the breach that was caused when Magnus tried to contact him. I agree--we can only wait to find out what might transpire about the GK founding and the part...if any...the custodians played.

Grey knights are the best human warriors which can be mass produced (although currently we believe they are not being mass produced).

Custodes are superior but it is impossible to mass produce them under any situation. Therefore even though they are better individually, if the Imperiums logistical situation were better the Knights would be dramatically superior overall.

Are there any examples of a Custodian being corrupted?

Mellow wrote:
Are there any examples of a Custodian being corrupted?

Not that I can think of, I think that they are like grey knights in that they are incorruptible. Although they are often described as a little power crazed.

...and their (the custodes) names are a mile long.

 lordseamus wrote:
...and their (the custodes) names are a mile long.

I think only the first word is is their name, the rest are their deeds, battles and honours.

 Silverthorne wrote:
Grey knights are the best human warriors which can be mass produced (although currently we believe they are not being mass produced).

Custodes are superior but it is impossible to mass produce them under any situation. Therefore even though they are better individually, if the Imperiums logistical situation were better the Knights would be dramatically superior overall.

GK are not mass produced, not in the slightest.

GK and Custodes simply have different jobs.

Both must be incorruptible and infallibly loyal.

But one operates specifically against daemons, working in squads and using psychic powers towards this end.

The other is a bodyguard force, supreme defenders of the palace.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Silverthorne wrote:
Grey knights are the best human warriors which can be mass produced (although currently we believe they are not being mass produced).

Custodes are superior but it is impossible to mass produce them under any situation. Therefore even though they are better individually, if the Imperiums logistical situation were better the Knights would be dramatically superior overall.

GK are not mass produced, not in the slightest.

GK and Custodes simply have different jobs.

Both must be incorruptible and infallibly loyal.

But one operates specifically against daemons, working in squads and using psychic powers towards this end.

The other is a bodyguard force, supreme defenders of the palace.

Where did I say GK are mass produced?

Nowhere. They COULD be, due to the way Genesee works in astartes, but they aren't. Any SM can be mass produced but it's not done currently for a lot of reasons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also about 90% of the time GK are fighting humans or SM in the process of trying to bring about demons and much less time fighting demons themselves.

No, Grey Knights couldn't be mass produced, due to the extreme difficulty in finding suitable individuals who are strong psykers and have sufficient strength of will, combat talent, physical ability and so on.

Psykers are not very common as it is, but finding all of that in someone young enough to be implanted?

Na. All you need is a psyker, male, of the correct age. Seeing as the black ships collect millions of these every year, the real rate limiting step is the Aegis armor, if you define a GK as only such if he has his armor

The Astartes implantation process doesn't require very much at all of the candidates. The best put together Astartes in terms of genetic longevity are actually skeletal thin scavengers dying of radiation poisoning the day they get inducted, which goes to show that you can use basically anyone.

We know the candidates are mind wiped and undergo literally years of pyschosurgery. That completely rewires the brain architecture and you get the product you get on the other side. That's standard for all astartes, and also applies to the GK who use even more intense techniques.

Custodes are not better than Space Marines. They're just different.

They are created in test tubes, specially made and trained to be the best bodyguards possible.They don't fight as a cohesive unit. They're just meatshields for the Emperor, and damn good fighters. But they make bad soldiers, in that soldiers need to be good at battlefield coordination and tactics. The Custodes are just blunt instruments, easily out-thought by real soldiers like Astartes.

This was pointed out during the HH book First Heretic while the marines are observing Custodes fighting on the battlefield. Its noted they just fight, but not together as a team. Each fights individually, and they have little tactical sense.

They do appear to lack the brotherhood that Astartes have. Although they are good at solo'ing. It is a good thing they are incorruptible. Plus they do have the advantage that the Imperial Palace is presumably protected by psychic and warp related wards. (it was previously before Magnus broke them, so you would hope they had been replaced over 10,000 years)

It appears that way--but no one has directly written about the custodes, so really we don't know a great deal about them.

Annoyingly, they seem to get fragged very easily by named Chaos Marines. Despite being incredible fighters.

Mellow wrote:
Annoyingly, they seem to get fragged very easily by named Chaos Marines. Despite being incredible fighters.

Not really. Against bog standard guys they seem to have a 3:1 ratio going for them. It's only against the Gal Vorbak they got "slaughtered", and only in the loosest terms as the possessed lost a lot of important figures to them.

donkey-caves killed Cyrene too.

And Gal Vorbak are pretty serious.

It kind of begs the question--if chaos can be truly a formidable foe to the custodes...how powerful are they really...given that they are made from the Emperor's DNA?

It says more about the might of the Gal Vorbak than it did about the might of the Custodes IMO.

Custodes aren't that tough.
It's been mentioned that a fight between them and a Space Marine would be too tough to call - and this was said of the mentally and physically deficient Crusade era Marines - and Marines are routinely called humanity's greatest warriors.
The Grey Knights would mop the floor with them, we've already seen they fair poorly against Sorcery and the Grey Knights have that in abundance.

Animus, I was under the impression that the Custodes were tougher than marines--thus the position of guarding the Emperor--with the aid of the Sister's of Silence (which we have no idea what happened to them).

1v1 Custodes are deffo superior to most Marines.

On a squad-basis fight, it becomes tougher. Custodes still have the gear advantage, but they don't utilise squad tactics in the same way.

 lordseamus wrote:
Animus, I was under the impression that the Custodes were tougher than marines

There's contradictory information.
Some sources put Custodes as stronger, most put Marines as the greatest, to avoid argument I'm willing to go with Blood Games and say it would be too close to call.
This would place the Grey Knights above them.

That is like saying, which is better in a fight a sniper rifle or a frag grenade. They are two different weapons intended for two different purposes. A comparison really cant be made. Also if i remember, the Gol Vorbak sucker punched the custodes and killed him before the custodes had a chance to fight back effectively. but i could be wrong

You call it fighting back effectively. I call it "not being as good". If he got fragged by a cheap shot and didn't have the skill to avoid or block then he wasn't very good.

That puts to rest the story of the skill of the Minotaurs, then, since their Chapter Master and 2 Dreads got their asses handed to them by a single Necron Overlord.

Animus wrote:

 lordseamus wrote:
Animus, I was under the impression that the Custodes were tougher than marines

There's contradictory information.
Some sources put Custodes as stronger, most put Marines as the greatest, to avoid argument I'm willing to go with Blood Games and say it would be too close to call.
This would place the Grey Knights above them.

umm no every source I've seen indicates that man for man the Custodes are better then the Marines. but Marines are better at group tactics etc. bnasicly custodes are better WARRIORS. Marines are better SOLDIERS

Yes, @BrianDavion--this is what I have always thought--via the fluff.

I don't think it would be true in every case. Sure, most Custodes are going to be better than most Astartes. They are supposed to be taller and stronger. But you're going to have Astartes who are better than Custodes. Astartes like Sigismund or Delvarus would probably be capable of putting down a Custodes. They have that ability to fight as a single warrior as much as they do as a group.

Same with Grey Knights. Although the Grey Knights are supposed to be first amongst equals according to an article that appeared on the old GW website.

The Grey Knights are, first and foremost, a Space Marine Chapter, but there are surprisingly few similarities between them and the other Adeptus Astartes. First among equals, the Grey Knights utilise the very finest equipment that the Mechanicum of Mars have to offer, vehicles and weaponry so esoteric and rare that they are reserved exclusively for their use. It is rumoured that the Grey Knights share a genetic heritage with the Emperor himself in the same way as other Adeptus Astartes do with their Primarch - Simon Grant

But is that due to the resources available to them. If Grey Knights are that good, perhaps they are on a par with Custodes or superior.

 JamesY wrote:

 lordseamus wrote:
This maybe a stupid question--but do the Adeptus Custodes have the Emperor's gene seed?

Yes they do. Can't wait for that range to be released.

They don't have gene seed as they aren't produced the same way as Astartes are.

I have never read that they have a gene seed. But then again I have not read that they do not. They just seem to have been 'there' to protect the Emperor along with the Silent Sisterhood (another great mystery). But to be so ultimately loyal makes me wonder if they do not have some sort of the Emperor's dna or---I don't know...something that makes them such incredible sentry's loyal to the death for the Emperor of mankind.

There's nothing to suggest that they have geneseed in the same way that Space Marines do. They are raised/trained individually, rather than "mass produced" in the way that Space Marines. It is almost certain that some level of genetic manipulation/upgrades/enhancements are involved, but that is not the same thing as geneseed implantation.