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Yes there seems to be a great deal of training/individualization etc...but you know--some Space Marine chapters don't have 'mass produced' marines. Some chapters put possible inductees through death dealing contests and other such ordeals that limit who will be implanted with a geneseed. My point here is that few make it threw these contests and so some chapters don't grow very quickly to replace casualties. But I assume it would be to costly and time consuming to create them as Custodes are created.


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Sorry just read my own post and don't know where I was going with that! LOL!

As much as I like OP's theory, the Grey Knights would need to be far more numerous to perform the duty described for them in the post. Their current number of 1000 Marines is simply too few to effectively combat Chaos, which is why we have institutions like the SoB, SM, Inquisition, etc. continually battling Chaos.

 dusara217 wrote:
As much as I like OP's theory, the Grey Knights would need to be far more numerous to perform the duty described for them in the post. Their current number of 1000 Marines is simply too few to effectively combat Chaos, which is why we have institutions like the SoB, SM, Inquisition, etc. continually battling Chaos.

There's only a thousand? I thought they had around 8,000 kind of like Black Templars.

No. Other than their particularly special MO, they are a Codex Adherent Chapter.

The BT don't have more than a thousand Marines any more, either.

 Psienesis wrote:
No. Other than their particularly special MO, they are a Codex Adherent Chapter.

The BT don't have more than a thousand Marines any more, either.

no they're NOT a codex Aherant chapter. "codex adherant" does not mean "has 1000 marines" it's an orginizational thing. the Grey Knights are orginized NOTHING like a codex chapter

My assertion wasn't that they were meant to fight all of chaos, but chaos' greatest weapon in the materium, Daemons. The conjecture is based on the idea that this threat needed to be dealt with and by the time the Emperor was willing to admit that, things were so fethed up that this level of screcy and whatnot was required, and who better to lead the newly formed force of untaintable marines than a primarch who had faced corruption and rejected it, despite his legion "Turning"

 Psienesis wrote:
No. Other than their particularly special MO, they are a Codex Adherent Chapter.

The BT don't have more than a thousand Marines any more, either.

The codex has a lot more than the, very very soft, cap of 1000 marines. Its about doctrine, command structure, protocol for different tactical situations, gear and equipment specifications, etc...

The GKs are not a codex adhering chapter. They are a special snowflake among special snowflakes.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
No. Other than their particularly special MO, they are a Codex Adherent Chapter.

The BT don't have more than a thousand Marines any more, either.

The codex has a lot more than the, very very soft, cap of 1000 marines. Its about doctrine, command structure, protocol for different tactical situations, gear and equipment specifications, etc...

The GKs are not a codex adhering chapter. They are a special snowflake among special snowflakes.

indeed. a codex chapter consists of approximatly 1000 marines, with 10 companies, company 1 being a vetern 1st company. companies 2-5 being battle companies, 6-9 reserve companies, 10th as a scout company. each company is layed out in a certin way as dictated by the codex, etc.

none of this applies to Grey Knights.

And what's a normal GK detachment sent to a world with daemonic activity? About 5 Marines. A combat squad.

Who's running the Chapter? The CM's advisory council, the Grand Masters, until the Chapter Master (Draigo) returns. While we, the players, know that Draigo is in the Warp and has been there for years, in-universe this happened, like, last week.

If you're going to claim a Chapter is non-Codex compliant because they apply some slight variations to the Codex (such as the Imperial Fists' Chapter Council) or because they adopt additional measures (Again, the Imperial Fists are one such example) then trying to decide which studio Chapters are Codex-compliant and which aren't is an effort in futility, since all but 1 of them deviate in some way or another.

 Psienesis wrote:
And what's a normal GK detachment sent to a world with daemonic activity? About 5 Marines. A combat squad.

Who's running the Chapter? The CM's advisory council, the Grand Masters, until the Chapter Master (Draigo) returns. While we, the players, know that Draigo is in the Warp and has been there for years, in-universe this happened, like, last week.

If you're going to claim a Chapter is non-Codex compliant because they apply some slight variations to the Codex (such as the Imperial Fists' Chapter Council) or because they adopt additional measures (Again, the Imperial Fists are one such example) then trying to decide which studio Chapters are Codex-compliant and which aren't is an effort in futility, since all but 1 of them deviate in some way or another.

these aren't "slight variations" these are major doctrinal differances. at LEAST as differnt as the space wolves. let's look at key differances here. rather then one or two similarities (after all there are gonna be SOME. these are space marines after all) first of all, the Grey Knights do not have structured battlecompanies, reserve companies etc. or a vetern first company. if you actually look at Codex: GKs their Brotherhoods each has it's own unique compisition. This is NOT codex, The Grey Knights do not train their troops along "first you're a scout, then you're a devestator, then assault, then tatical, then maybe a vetern" they train their troops from day one to use Terminator armor. there is no evidance that you have to have served in a purgation squad to serve in an inteceptor squad. yeah all marine chapters have their own twists on it etc. but the Grey Knights aren't codex adherant at all. if you say "they are a codex chapter" it means you can make some assumptions about it. the GKs however have almost nothing in common with other space marine chapters. they have differnt weapons and equipment. they orginize differntly. they have a differnt approuch to combat. in short they are not a codex chapter

I know I may be new to Dakka...but am an old gamer. It used to be that no one even knew the Grey Knights existed--save those in high offices in the Imperium. In the old Realm of Chaos book--it said that forces that operated with the GK were destroyed after a particular mission was over. Entire armies just wiped out---for security reasons. Now it has been watered down to mind erasing (see Pandorax). The GK are definitely not a normal 'codex' chapter!

 lordseamus wrote:
I know I may be new to Dakka...but am an old gamer. It used to be that no one even knew the Grey Knights existed--save those in high offices in the Imperium. In the old Realm of Chaos book--it said that forces that operated with the GK were destroyed after a particular mission was over. Entire armies just wiped out---for security reasons. Now it has been watered down to mind erasing (see Pandorax). The GK are definitely not a normal 'codex' chapter!

actually it's mind erasing or killing, whatever's cheaper basicly.

The mind-erasing, or execution with full honors, of those who witness them isn't part of the Codex Astartes in either direction. It's just an extra thing they do (it is actually the Inquisition that does this, who are not bound by the Codex Astartes or, really, anything else at all).

It is possible that a Custode became a founder of the Grey Knights. As usual, the fluff is deliberately vague to give us, the readers and gamers, an opportunity to interpret to our hearts content.

If you like the idea of one of the Eight (or the Four) being a Custode, goferit. If you prefer thinking that Janus is Omegron or Alpharius you can make it work. My preference is for Garro, who led the recruitment, to become Janus. The fluff casts some doubt on that possibility too.

Keep in mind that the newly founded order was not the Grey Knights as they exist in M41. It could well be that ALL Space Marines have psyker potential that can be unlocked. It could be that the first GKs were NOT all psykers. The GK psyker potential could come from a unique GK geneseed line (Emperor/Custodes?) or it might be descended from other lines with high Psyker potential (K-sons fleet survivors?) or it could be the product of some process unique to GK creation that's not geneseed dependent.

Who knows? Seeking a universal canon on 40k is like seeking the Holy Grail. It's an exhaustive quest that will either outlast you or kill you outright.

And that's a strong point in my opinion.

My two cents.

GK geneseed is now definitively of direct descent from the Emperor. Latest GK Codex outright states it, and there is no current evidence to contradict this statement.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
No. Other than their particularly special MO, they are a Codex Adherent Chapter.

The BT don't have more than a thousand Marines any more, either.

The codex has a lot more than the, very very soft, cap of 1000 marines. Its about doctrine, command structure, protocol for different tactical situations, gear and equipment specifications, etc...

The GKs are not a codex adhering chapter. They are a special snowflake among special snowflakes.

indeed. a codex chapter consists of approximatly 1000 marines, with 10 companies, company 1 being a vetern 1st company. companies 2-5 being battle companies, 6-9 reserve companies, 10th as a scout company. each company is layed out in a certin way as dictated by the codex, etc.

none of this applies to Grey Knights.

Indeed. Even the individual company organization is clearly spelled out in the Codex. Sure, some deviate slightly like the Dark Angels, but none as much as the GKs.

Each company has Terminator armor as its standard equipment for its basic derps, who also may deploy in PA, then multiple squads of interceptors and dreadnoughts/dreadknights. They have no "First Company" of explicit veterans. They have 2 special companies noone else has(purifiers and paladins). Plus every one of them is a psyker.

Definitely not codex compliant. Sure, every chapter deviates slightly. But some deviate so much as to not even have a pretense of following. Namely the Space Wolves, GKs, and until recently the Black Templars.

 Grey Templar wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
No. Other than their particularly special MO, they are a Codex Adherent Chapter.

The BT don't have more than a thousand Marines any more, either.

The codex has a lot more than the, very very soft, cap of 1000 marines. Its about doctrine, command structure, protocol for different tactical situations, gear and equipment specifications, etc...

The GKs are not a codex adhering chapter. They are a special snowflake among special snowflakes.

indeed. a codex chapter consists of approximatly 1000 marines, with 10 companies, company 1 being a vetern 1st company. companies 2-5 being battle companies, 6-9 reserve companies, 10th as a scout company. each company is layed out in a certin way as dictated by the codex, etc.

none of this applies to Grey Knights.

Indeed. Even the individual company organization is clearly spelled out in the Codex. Sure, some deviate slightly like the Dark Angels, but none as much as the GKs.

Each company has Terminator armor as its standard equipment for its basic derps, who also may deploy in PA, then multiple squads of interceptors and dreadnoughts/dreadknights. They have no "First Company" of explicit veterans. They have 2 special companies noone else has(purifiers and paladins). Plus every one of them is a psyker.

Definitely not codex compliant. Sure, every chapter deviates slightly. But some deviate so much as to not even have a pretense of following. Namely the Space Wolves, GKs, and until recently the Black Templars.

even ther Black templars. having their numbers be shrunk didn't change BTs being non codex compliant. they operate under a very differnt structure then codex.

Codex Compliant DOES NOT mean "1000 marines"


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 Psienesis wrote:
The mind-erasing, or execution with full honors, of those who witness them isn't part of the Codex Astartes in either direction. It's just an extra thing they do (it is actually the Inquisition that does this, who are not bound by the Codex Astartes or, really, anything else at all).

NOTHING about the Grey Knights is in the codex. they're not a codex chapter. in fact they where put together BEFORE the 2nd founding.

 Psienesis wrote:
That puts to rest the story of the skill of the Minotaurs, then, since their Chapter Master and 2 Dreads got their asses handed to them by a single Necron Overlord.

What do the events of IA12 have to do with the Custodes and Grey Knights and how exactly does nearly dying to a Necron Overlord prove that they suck?

TCF - its a comment on the value of anecdotal evidence.