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Alright I think everyone has their own idea in their heads about how Chaos marines would act. There are a lot of questions concerning thier general behavior, however. Do they carry on the "brotherhood" aspect of their loyalist equivalents? Exactly how much do Chaos marines care about one another? Would a Chaos Marine surging forward in the heat battle bother giving aid to a wounded comrade if he came across one, or would he leave him to his fate? How ruthless are Chaos lords, especially towards their own men?

Honestly, I don't like the current mindless behavior GW has installed into them. Obviously I think the behavior of a certain warband would probably depend on the Chaos god they follow, if they even follow one (Chaos undivided). Regardless, we all know Chaos Marines are ruthless, ambitious and evil, but they aren't stupid either. When I say stupid, I mean.....complete dumbasses. It appears that Chaos Marines hate eachother more than they hate the Imperium. So I think....in my own made up canon mind you, that Chaos Marines do in fact carry on their brotherhood aspect and I believe that they act, in a lot of ways, just like their loyalist counterparts. I think a Chaos Marine would certainly pull a comrade out of the fire because for one, they are not stupid, they know if that said marine does die then that means a whole new decade or few decades building another one. I will however pull out hardcore Khorne worshippers from the equation, since, you know, that marines spilled blood is good. BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!

But as far as Chaos Lords are concerned....look, I don't think these guys are the "smile as my men get slaughtered" kind of ruthless, like Honsou from the Uriel Ventris books, especially since...ya know...I have a hard time believing they would enjoy watching the warband they lead be destroyed piece by piece. I also don't think they are ruthless enough to kill one of their own lieutenants in a briefing for asking a tactical or strategical question. "Yea, don't ask buddy". I just think Chaos Marines would be a lot more self-possessed and calculated than they appear.

Anyway, let me know what you guys think about this and how you view Chaos Marines.

They can be anyway you want, because they don't have the memory imprint that the normal marines get they can be reasonably normal (for a chaos marine) to raving lunatics.

In Word Bearers Omnibus they are pretty brotherly, but they have always look for backstabing.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
They can be anyway you want, because they don't have the memory imprint that the normal marines get they can be reasonably normal (for a chaos marine) to raving lunatics.

RIght, which makes Chaos Marines that much better than Space Marines lol


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 Naberiel wrote:
In Word Bearers Omnibus they are pretty brotherly, but they have always look for backstabing.

I'll have to add that to list of books I wanna read

Chaos Marines are for the most part self interested.
It's the fluff reason for their lack of ATSKNF. While a Space Marine will cover his brothers in a fighting retreat, unafraid of death and giving everything for his brothers and knowing they will do the same, a Chaos Marine will just leg it to save his own skin.
I'm sure there would still be some sense of camaraderie some times, but Traitor Marines have all broken bonds of friendship and oaths of loyalty and all Traitor Marines know it.

Animus wrote:
Chaos Marines are for the most part self interested.
It's the fluff reason for their lack of ATSKNF. While a Space Marine will cover his brothers in a fighting retreat, unafraid of death and giving everything for his brothers and knowing they will do the same, a Chaos Marine will just leg it to save his own skin.
I'm sure there would still be some sense of camaraderie some times, but Traitor Marines have all broken bonds of friendship and oaths of loyalty and all Traitor Marines know it.

And IMO, that's what I don't really like. They're cowardly, they have no honor and those characteristics are just so lame for evil superhumans.

It varies a lot between them.

Some scattered renegade bands are just ten guys who have understood they can accomplish more together than apart, but otherwise dislike each other.

Some manage impressive discipline and professionalism, though in a more brutal way than the loyalists.

Overall, most of them simply get the job done effectively and efficiently. To quote DoWII: 'We will rival later. To battle!'

So I think blanket no-ATSKNF makes no sense. Many should still have it. It'd be useful as an upgrade. I can see the lack of autorally due to unwillingness to self-sacrifice, but the sweep protection part should remain.

Meanwhile, VotLW as an upgrade makes less sense. According to IA13 the majority of all CSM are VotLW, so you may as well bake it into their base profiles.

But that's yet again rules failing to portray CSM accurately...

I don't see anything in IA13 suggesting most sm are VOTLW. It's only the survivors of the original legions really, and the GW codexs are increasingly focusing on non legion renegades.

But yeah all traitors have different personality, but they have all betrayed some cause, and therefore lack the mental fortitude needed to justify ATSKNF

It probably varies from reasonable marines (Alpha Legion) at one end to raving mad lunatics (World Eaters) on the other end.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
And IMO, that's what I don't really like. They're cowardly, they have no honor and those characteristics are just so lame for evil superhumans.

I think it's very fitting, they've got "freedom" and they mostly don't fight for anything larger than themselves anymore.
In addition they all know that they're all snakes who've broken their honour codes and spat on their oaths before, it's hard to trust a known traitor, and they all fell to Chaos because of their weaknesses in the first place.
In the end they're just being villainous which is good, being bold and honourable is classically the other side.

 Ashiraya wrote:
So I think blanket no-ATSKNF makes no sense. Many should still have it. It'd be useful as an upgrade. I can see the lack of autorally due to unwillingness to self-sacrifice, but the sweep protection part should remain.

I think the sweep part should be the part they really should not get. Ordered retreats require trust and discipline.
They should maybe get the auto rally because when they're out of immediate danger they're still pretty brave, and will be able to more coolly assess the situation.

In 'black crusade' it has renegades (including CSM) coming together for a compact (mission) but in some cases acting very independently...it has a wonderful description of daemon world's or world's on the edge of the screaming vortex where solitary chaos bikers race from horizon to horizon or raptors lurking in asteriod fields to my favourite..a world where mutilators stalk the natives.

Whilst this is not true for all CSM or all depictions I have this image of chaos space marines descending into madness alone in many weird ways.. and once in whatever passes for time in the immaterium they gather to achieve a goal. This could be forced on them by a powerful warlord (like how the black brethren of ayreas where dominated by zhufor during vraks) or because they still hold to ancient notions of the legion. The representation of CSM then needs to reflect the individual nature of these lunatics and the lack of ATSKNF does that in my eyes of a group of disparate individuals who as mentioned have broken every oath and sacred duty. VOTLW can support the more organised forces such as the word bearers.

I hope this helps despite being a personal interpretation of a range of sources. I agree and would like some more personalisation options for my CSM such as presented in the CSM list for HR kill team rules..just more.

It's not cowardice. Chaos Space Marines usually have better leadership than their loyalist brethren, particularly Veterans of the Long War. It's that they're self-interested rather than selfless. The Talon of Horus has an interesting take on Abaddon taking advantage of that need for brotherhood and purpose. Likewise the Night Lords series has some interesting things to say about First Claw in that all the members of the squad hate each other (Cyrion *knows* fear, Uzas is a team-killing farktard that's basically their Ringo, Xarl is always looking for an opportunity for fratricide, Talos is self-righteous, and Mercutian is a toff).

I think that Chaos Space Marines have a better opportunity to develop personalities than loyalist Space Marines have, since the latter are sacrificed for the Emperor, while the Chaos Space Marines have their own goals and dreams (or at least some of them do, the protagonists and prominent characters, while the others, the extras, are just grunts). There's some interesting comments in Horus Rising about how Astartes seem Epic in everything except their personalities (and their body odour), where they seem stunted. There's also the point that they typically become Astartes prior to maturing as adults, so it's probably something to consider that to some degree they all have the minds of children.

I personally see my see my Night Lords warband as carrying out the same cause they always had. Using terror to bring vengance/justice to those who deserve it. They just believe that the Emperor is as deserving as any other. And once they bring him to bear for the wrongs he has commited, they will follow the example of thier Primarch and allow themselves to be punished as well. But hey, that's just my personnal warband. YMMV. I don't, however, belive that they are all are inherently cowards or willing to just run and not work together to better survive. Cowards don't last long in war.

I really suggest to read WB Omnibus (yeah I am fanboy)...they are loyal to legion, then to apostate, then do their champion and then one to another as they tend to fight side to side for long centuries.
Yeah they are monsters but still, they have some sense of loyalty as they are part of one legion. Its little ironic, but they are like loyalist but more human-like in thinking.

Sorry naberial...wasn't a fan of the WB but I agree it's defo worth a read (probably personal preference)...I loved the Nightlords books with first claw..

Nomeny's point about them being children and stunted...so obvious why didn't I see that! Sat on a train musing over the effects of maternal deprivation and father complexes..

I enjoy in books qoutes such as F. Bile talking about the emperor or thousand sons talking about fathers and the emperor as a grandfather! The psychology of the traitor would be a book I'd read with a big picture of the naughty primarchs..

This should be required reading for anyone with an interest in understanding the depth of chaos space marines:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271640-misconceptions-about-csm/page-4#entry3316051

Captyn_Bob wrote:
I don't see anything in IA13 suggesting most sm are VOTLW.

It's explicitly stated. Page 16, under 'Rites of Death'.

Most Chaos Space Marines are veterans of the long war and as such masters of battle in all its forms[...]

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Animus wrote:
I think the sweep part should be the part they really should not get. Ordered retreats require trust and discipline.

No. Being swept means that you are routed and run down. That doesn't happen to Chaos Marines. They still don't fear, they don't lose their cool (unless it's replaced with rage). They may sometimes decide the battle is not worth dying for, so they may as well keep retreating, but just like loyalists they remain fully aware of their surroundings when they pull back rather than running in fear. That is why they should be unsweepable.

Immunity to Fear + immune to sweep but without the autorally part seems ideal.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

Animus wrote:
Chaos Marines are for the most part self interested.
It's the fluff reason for their lack of ATSKNF. While a Space Marine will cover his brothers in a fighting retreat, unafraid of death and giving everything for his brothers and knowing they will do the same, a Chaos Marine will just leg it to save his own skin.
I'm sure there would still be some sense of camaraderie some times, but Traitor Marines have all broken bonds of friendship and oaths of loyalty and all Traitor Marines know it.

And IMO, that's what I don't really like. They're cowardly, they have no honor and those characteristics are just so lame for evil superhumans.

That doesn't make them cowardly, that makes them Machiavellian. "Better him than me" when withdrawing from a losing battle and one of your fellow CSM falls to enemy fire. Honor is something that one might possess... but, in service to Chaos, it will be a tool, a means to an end, or perhaps one shred of whatever remaining humanity the CSM might possess... and in this we must assume that they're relatively "new" in service to the Ruinous Powers, because Chaos knows nothing of "limits" or "propriety".

At the end of the day though, whether a VotLW or recent convert, Chaos Space Marines each have a personal reason to why they walk the Path of Glory. In most of those cases, dying is directly counter to those reasons.

 Ashiraya wrote:
They may sometimes decide the battle is not worth dying for, so they may as well keep retreating, but just like loyalists they remain fully aware of their surroundings when they pull back rather than running in fear. That is why they should be unsweepable.

Well, I think the problem is a loyalist will cover his brothers' backs and they will cover his if they attempt a retreat, meaning if they can't get away they stay fighting.

Compare this to a chaos brother: If a chaos marine wants to retreat he trips his mate up to give the enemy a distraction and probably vacates the battlefield ASAP to avoid repercussions.

Perhaps I am retero-fitting reasoning to the rules but to me this explains why space marines can't be swept "brother Bobus! I'll save you!" compared to chaos marines "Sorry bob, it was a good time but I gotta get outta here!"

Avoiding sweeping is just as much about a fighting retreat. You are aware of what is going on around you, you dodge while running, and so on, instead of fleeing for your life and tripping over your friends.

I don't think it is fair to characterize Chaos Marines as cowardly. Even in table top terms, they have LD8 - 9, which is really good.

Some might be. There is, after all, the Chaos Gift "Irrational Fear", where the recipient of said Gift is suddenly irrationally afraid of something: Gretchin, Eldar, Sensei, Illuminati, Priests, the color orange, kittens. Pie-bald horses. Whatever.

I think CSMs should have avoiding sweeping advances added as an option akin to VotLW. This would represent CSMs who have had SM training, either as Legion or Renegades. CSMs who have been recruited later through various means won't normally have access to the same quality of training and level of discipline as SMs.

Saying that CSMs, because they're highly individualistic, can't cooperate is very wrong. It's in their direct interest to cooperate with each other, but not to the same degree as SMs, who have been trained to act as a unit out of duty rather than self-preservation.

I'm not saying the level of cooperation wouldn't differ from warband to warband, Legion to Legion. The Alpha Legion would be considerably more organised and disciplined that the Emperor's Children. But this is the case for the Loyalists too; individualistic Space Wolves vs. organised and disciplined Ultramarines for example.

Well they do have mechanics to avoid sweeping advance, admittedly even if it is simply being less likely to break (higher leadership, icons for 'combat resolution' and adding fearless models to their units). Also note the cult legions are all fearless. And Slaaneshy marines are also pretty good at running away (I guess the feel of the wind rushing through their hair encourages them).

When it comes to fluff I mostly take the visual element of GW and input my own background.

With that said, I see CSM as those that realised they were under a facist regime and grew a conscience (in simplistic terms). One that allowed other evils to inhabit and mislead; creating new religious cults whose actions were in the end no different. Now they live trapped once more.

The thing to remember about chaos space marines is that they are the opposite of space marines. So while space marines are heroic good guys, chaos space marines are dastardly bad guys who are very bad and are the opposite of good. Think of something good - chaos space marines will be the opposite of that thing. For instance bravery. Being brave is good so chaos space marines are cowardly because that is the opposite of being brave and therefore bad. Or competence. Competence is good so chaos space marines are the opposite of that - they're totally incompetent which is bad! This also applies for other good things like not shooting your friends in the back for no good reason or not stabbing yourself in the crotch with your own sword. This is the essence of Chaos because Chaos is fickle.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
The thing to remember about chaos space marines is that they are the opposite of space marines. So while space marines are heroic good guys, chaos space marines are dastardly bad guys who are very bad and are the opposite of good. Think of something good - chaos space marines will be the opposite of that thing. For instance bravery. Being brave is good so chaos space marines are cowardly because that is the opposite of being brave and therefore bad. Or competence. Competence is good so chaos space marines are the opposite of that - they're totally incompetent which is bad! This also applies for other good things like not shooting your friends in the back for no good reason or not stabbing yourself in the crotch with your own sword. This is the essence of Chaos because Chaos is fickle.

Chaos Marines do not have to be opposite of literally everything a Space Marine is to be "bad". They may be self-interested but they should not mysteriously forget how to coordinate an organised retreat.

I think this whole concept of mighty Space Marines charging into Chaos Marines, shrugging off entire volleys of Chaos Marine bolter fire and slaughtering them into a sloppy cowardy retreat is just....so annoying. I mean, this is just a childrens tale of a hero and a villain, nothing more.

Here's a thought - when being swept, it could very well not just be that they're "run down and killed", but more along the lines of them fleeing the field to save their own skin. Sure, you could say that that might be the morale check for falling back, but I've always seen that more of a fighting retreat than a complete rout, while being swept could mean that the CSM involved has no desire to take part in the battlefield anymore.

 Enigwolf wrote:
Here's a thought - when being swept, it could very well not just be that they're "run down and killed", but more along the lines of them fleeing the field to save their own skin. Sure, you could say that that might be the morale check for falling back, but I've always seen that more of a fighting retreat than a complete rout, while being swept could mean that the CSM involved has no desire to take part in the battlefield anymore.

EIther way, I'm not a fan.

it all depends on the legion I field mainly fearless units in my csm /khorne daemonkin armies to similate their dedication to the cause